rayfallon
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Posts posted by rayfallon
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I would respectfully add Rick Maass to that list of judges that called it like he saw it.
Absolutely - it was a partial stream of semi-consciousness list at best.
The thing is that everyone called it as they saw it back then, but the folks I mentioned, now including Rick as you point out, saw it a little better than some of the others.
My opinion, of course. And there were lots more - I was a young (26 yo) brass instructor back in those days when you maybe had 2 total brass guys or girls on tour - before "brass staffs"
You'll see I don't mention the great percussion or visual folks.
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I'm really happy to see the lively discussion that has arisen from my OP. On its surface, I was simply musing about score disparity that occurred once upon a time that never occurs anymore, and the most logical explanation would be how the execution judges plied their craft. In the Stone Age, and execution judge's tools of the trade were simply a judging sheet, a clipboard, and a pen. No tape recorders for the tick judges. In many cases (I'm not sure how frequently - if there are any Old Tyme judges in the audience, they might be able to shed some light on this), the tick was put on the sheet without explanation, simply a tick. However, I've also seen X sheets from BITD where the judge would specify the offense, i.e., "Tenor, roll release, drum solo." If an instructor had a taste for conspiracy theory, it would be easy to say, "15 more ticks than last night? Judge so-and-so just had it in for us tonight!"
With evolution came the tape recorder, and more accountability. Judges could then describe the nature of the tick in real time, but the question of what was acceptable and what was a tick never really went away. Back in the '80s, I taught with some former judges who judged during the tick era, and more than once, I listened to stories about what they would call "D&R Shows", with "D&R" standing for "Dump & Run". Without wanting to read into such a description, it's hard not to read into such a description.
I also remember having a conversation with an old DCA judge who judged back in the '70s, when DCA corps tended to play with a certain....shall we say.....enthusiasm. I asked him about how he would evaluate that approach, and his response was, "Sometimes, it gets so loud that you just let the ticks go right on by."
As with the modern system, it would be impossible for a judge to not allow personal taste or school of technical thought to not creep into an evaluation, even on a subconscious level. Method of attack, method of release, and all of the other basics of technique could be interpreted very differently from Judge A to Judge B.....just like they can be today.
However...because the OP was simply about wild swings in scores from night to night, let me give you one more that DIDN'T involve ticks....
1973 DCI Prelims
Hawthorne Muchachos
GE M&M - 9.1 (5th)
GE Perc - 9.1 (2nd)
GE Brass - 9.1 (8th)
Total GE - 27.3 (3rd)
1973 DCI Finals
GE M&M - 8.9 (8th)
GE Perc - 8.1 (7th)
GE Brass - 8.7 (8th)
Total GE - 25.7 (9th)
1.6 lost in total GE overnight (1 point in percussion alone). A big reason why they dropped from 5th overall in prelims to 8th in finals.
As I said in my OP: What does it all mean? Not a heckuva lot. However, it does make for interesting discussion!
Rick -
One of the factors back then (I think) came from the personalities of the folks with the pencils - or maybe it simply hadn't been coached out of them (although there was an urban legend that Donald Angelica controlled the judging community like marionettes).
I'll use a personal recollection to illustrate - Bayonne in '78 (my first year) was rolling into Denver with a pretty good brass line during a year when there were a lot of really good lines. We'd been head to head with Spirit on tour going through the South and both lines were averaging about a 14.0 (out of 15) in field brass.
The corps had to go on 24 hours before the block in prelims due to the 1977 DQ. To say it made us nervous was a bit of an understatement - it's hard to maintain spreads during a 2 hr show when lines are good - maintaining for 24 hrs is tough.
Sandra Opie, probably my personal favorite brass judge (of all times) when it came to performance and Musical Analysis, gave the line a 12.6 at prelims. I was ready to throw myself off the wall at Mile High Stadium (I think prelims may actually have been in Boulder so forgive me). I figured we were toast.
24 hours later? BD had the same 12.6.
What one person thought was a tic back then wasn't always consistent with other people's tics, and I think there may have been less pressure for the same results over and over again.
I was judging a band show in Eastern Md a couple of decades ago and the chief judge came to me with the recaps of the previous night and started talking to me about which spreads he considered accurate and which he thought were less so. I politely asked him to get away from me.
You can coach for consistency, or in Sandra's case (or Roger Olsen, or Cecil Austin, Dr. Baggs, Jim Prime Sr, et al.) you can get out of the way and observe greatness (no, I'm not including myself with those folks - in my case you could just get out of the way).
It was tougher to predict, but a young brass guy could learn a lot talking to those folks.
Still have great judges out there on tour today - but I wonder if they're allowed to express themselves to the degree that existed BITD, and if we would be okay with it if they were.
Great topic. BTW my daughter is aging out with Crossmen this year - she wasn't born yet when Kevin started there in '91.
The time do fly...
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You mean they can't just print money like the Federal Reserve???
Sounds like someone's cranky about "announcer's fees" huh?
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Most of Texas is close to freezing, or below. North of College station is frozen, and snowed in.
My (Crossmen) daughter called from UNT in Denton to tell us she had ice like the big storm in 2013 (in DFW they called it "Icemageddon" in December 2013 - in Boston we would have called it "Tuesday")
My 10 year old granddaughter wrote me from Ft Worth - "We had 2 centimeters of snow so school was cancelled today and tomorrow"
Cultural paradigm shift is how I choose to look at it, in between shoveling tons and tons of snow.
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CT relates a great drum corps anecdote in his autobiography. When he first joined the Tom Powell unit, it was composed of little kids with valveless G bugles, what we used to call a "Peanut Corps", way back when.
The Post sent them to compete in the MO State contest, the first time many of them had been out of the neighborhood in their young lives. They performed W.C. Handy's "St. Louis Blues".
No one had told them they couldn't play sharps or flats without valves, slides or rotaries so they just "lipped" the blue notes. The judges were flabbergasted. They came home State Champs.
I guess at that time there were two possibilities for that level of musical impertinence - State Champs or jailed for 30 days.
Glad the authorities chose the former.
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Like most of the really great players, no one played just like Clark Terry. There was a little Diz in there, and passing similarities of style here and there to other greats, but on the whole Clark (Mr Terry) had a distinctive sound and style that you could pick out of a line-up.
Never met him - never got to see him live - but listened to hundreds of recordings and many videos. Gotta admit Andy I didn't know about the Tonight Show connection. My closest tie was studying with Sonny Costanza, Clark's lead trombone, while I was in CT during the early '80s. He really got me interested and turned on to the whole Terry mystique.
Our activity produced some amazing talents - many of them made giant names for themselves without the rest of the world knowing about their "humble" beginnings.
94 is a pretty good run. Thanks for the great music and the honor you did buglers everywhere.
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... Apparently, the Bridgemen's 1985 non-fielding of a corps helped the fledgeling Star out, as did Pride of Cincinnati's folding.ek
Hmmm ... 85 was the Bridgemen's Christmas in July show ... I saw them in Clearwater, FL that year ... along with the new SOI corps ... true, they were a mere reflection of what they used to be, but they were still on the field ... it was also the last time I ever saw Bobby Hoffman ... I know the Bayonne staff was hired by Star, but wasn't aware their members went as well ...
:-)
Lots of '84 Bridgekids went to Star - with lots of influence - Drum Major Karen Rushman; Contra/Tuba Stevie Jones (who went on to win 2 I&E awards with near perfect scores at Star - can you tell I'm proud?); The Keays brothers (might have screwed up the spelling - sorry Joe); and more.
I really don't think that the Star emergence had a big effect on '85 Bayonne, and while they got some tremendous members I don't feel that Star benefited hugely from the kids that emigrated from the corps. [i read this and realized it was sort of BS - of course they benefited tremendously from that kind of talent and performance experience - I just mean it wasn't like a merger where the Bridgemen kids served as 1/2 of the new product - they had a great influence, but I think Star was going to blow the top off the Universe pretty much no matter what].
When '84 Bayonne missed finals, they were financially strung way out, and had already lost much of the staff and even kids that went on to Indiana the following year. Many of those '84 kids were simply not ever going to go through a tour like that one again.
The '85 Christmas in July corps was a brave and tenacious group - a group worthy of that Bridgemen name - but between the lost staff and kids that had aged out or moved on after a disheartening '84 (I don't mean that in terms of the missing finals, although no one enjoyed that - it was the general financial gloom that plagued that team throughout the '84 season that dampened the joy for many) there was just not nearly enough talent to support a whacky show like "Christmas in July".
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Plus in my opinion, as great as Larry Kerchner's charts were, it was the Delucia drumline that made the Bridgemen run from '76 through '83 so remarkable, including the fabled blind-folded solo in '83 when Frank Dorritie pulled some musical changes out of his errrr pocket, and Dennis pulled out all the stops to push them across the finish line into finals during a tough season.
Bayonne - Great corps - Star - great corps. I think the connection, beyond Dennis, is over-hyped (to use a uniquely Bridgemen word).
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As long as North Korea doesn't interfere, it should be good to go.
Or Elbonia...
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SDCA Texas is announcing the formation of a The Texas All Stars Alumni corps. This will be a parade corps comprised of former members of any corps. The corps will perform at parades around Texas, and is open to anyone who wants to participate.
The first performance of the corps will be on May 2, in Corpus Christi Texas(on the Gulf of Mexico), for the Buccaneer Days Night Parade. The Buccaneer Days Night parade, draws approximately 200,000 people, and would be a good way to gain exposure for Drum and Bugle corps in Texas.
We are planning a entire weekend of fun for anyone who wants to join us. We are planning to participate in other parades/events, in other parts of the state.
if you are interested , send me a private message, for more info.
Sure, you do this 4 months AFTER I move back to Boston...
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"Lucrative MC jobs." The ultimate oxymoron.
sshhho true ... hic ...
<<--- my pay ...
I didn't say "liquorative" MC jobs...
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"....turned my health care over to the Veterans Administration (gasp) - the positive spin of which is that I'll never need complicated surgery because the VA practices a one size for everything Euthanasia." Agree!
Too this I BELIEVE They are very good at playing Govt. "You Gotta" (Got to). I honestly believe the VA tries their best to see what they can keep you from getting done. (Job Security)
As to Snow. I PAY to have it done.
But to bring it back to Drum Corps. I remember standing on the field during Retreat of at least one show. In early 1960s in mid Sept., in the Hudson Berkshire Circuit. It was at either the North Adams, MA show, or Championship Finals in Pittsfield, MA. Yes it was just Snow flurries. But, none the less SNOW. I was with the Asbury Park, NJ "Hurricanes", and we at least had those heavy Cadet style uniforms. Don't know how the ones in those Satin tops did it.
You'll never get an argument from me about the VA.
Even today, young men and women trying to go to school on the GI Bill regularly experience waits of up to 12 weeks per semester waiting for their first check.
That wait is what took me out of school in 1977 - back then it was $400+ a month - that was rent at the time. Brutal.
I used to have a "Rambo" movie planned out in my head (back when Rambo was still happening).
It was going to be called "Rambo - Last Blood" when John Rambo actually gets to attack the enemy with his M60.
That being the VA Office on Broad Street in Newark.
I've mellowed over the years, but I'm pretty beaten down about using them for health care, but WTF, right?
We earned it, it's out there, and it's saving us money, if making me a little nuts.
This retirement game isn't so easy.
Not all of us have lucrative MC'ing jobs like Andy and Fran (if you've heard my voice you know why).
I can fly anywhere for free, but can't afford to stay anywhere but in a park, on a bench.
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"I resemble that remark" - Jerome "Curley" Howard. And I = JimF..
Sentinels broke up around 75/76 and no idea if there was any connection between them and the Chieftains (had to look at corpsreps).
According to corpsreps Chieftains went inactive as they were putting effort into getting Lehigh Valley Knights (Jr) competative. Think it was dbcna.com (RIP) that had a line where the Chieftains "splintered" into LHK which sounded more nasty than the corpsreps entry.
And 76 DCA..... memories of sitting on the blacktop of the airport parking lot (our practice site) Sat night after the sun went down to get warmth. At least I had long pants on even if they were paper thin. Dang you know it's bad memories if you remember what you were wearing.
I went back and looked it up - it was the 1998 Chieftans. Thanks Jim.
My wife's first two exposures to the activity were the Chieftans at the Grand Prix and the Sky Alumni at the Lodi I&E show.
Took me years to get her to another show.
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"....turned my health care over to the Veterans Administration (gasp) - the positive spin of which is that I'll never need complicated surgery because the VA practices a one size for everything Euthanasia." Agree!
Too this I BELIEVE They are very good at playing Govt. "You Gotta" (Got to). I honestly believe the VA tries their best to see what they can keep you from getting done. (Job Security)
As to Snow. I PAY to have it done.
But to bring it back to Drum Corps. I remember standing on the field during Retreat of at least one show. In early 1960s in mid Sept., in the Hudson Berkshire Circuit. It was at either the North Adams, MA show, or Championship Finals in Pittsfield, MA. Yes it was just Snow flurries. But, none the less SNOW. I was with the Asbury Park, NJ "Hurricanes", and we at least had those heavy Cadet style uniforms. Don't know how the ones in those Satin tops did it.
Classic coldest ever (besides the showers at the YR show at RFK field) was 1976 DCA at Rochester.
God that was cold - on top of everything - John Flowers was ###### off about something and had the YR play their whole show on the track instead of marching off at the end.
I'm already miserable as DM of the disappointing (to us) 3rd place finish with Sun. 42 degrees on the field.
Phoenix guys are back whizzing on the back fence (from what I'm told).
It was one of those Calgon Take Me Away Moments...
Being a drum major pretty much sucks*, but never worse than it does on retreat.
*pretty much sucks if you pretty much suck as a drum major, which I did.
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OK late 90s I wasn't following corps but think I know who it was by looking at scores from the era. Never saw them so no idea myself. Given Rays "length of service" in corps I though he was talking about an earlier time frame. And yeah, I thought Emmaus Sentinels who had a few members join us after they broke up mid 70s.
OK, "length of service" is code for "really ####ing old" I think....
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They were at the Clifton show that year.
Did the Sentinels change their name in the late '90s?
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What's with all this "heart attack" schtick? You're all creeping me out.
Shovel, schmovel, blow, schmo...Hire the kids from the high school band to clear the driveway and watch from the living room with a hot brandy.
That's far more economical than cardiologists or snow blowers, plus you'll be keeping the little buggers from playing those god-forsaken saxophones for a while.
F
See? Those of us "of a certain age" have this "kids will work" illusion, or even better "kids will work for money" illusion.
Kids no longer work - period. They play the saxophone. We pay for the lessons, drive them there, and lobby George Hopkins to accept them into DCI. They work at rehearsal, and soccer, and school (sometimes).
And I'm not going to have a heart attack - I was raised working, and NOT playing saxophone.
I get achy, but I don't have to worry about co-pays, or expensive surgery because after I gave up my Blue Cross / Blue Shield at retirement I turned my health care over to the Veterans' Administration (gasp) - the positive spin of which is that I'll never need complicated surgery because the VA practices a one size for everything Euthanasia.
So - shovel on, Motherf*ckers!!! Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow.
I'm made of wrought iron. Old, bent, creaky, rusting.
Not even close to dying of a heart attack or anything else.
I despise the VA way too much for that.
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OK Easton Sr corps???????? Know I only discovered corps in 74 but thought I knew the history of that section of the commonwealth.
Unless it's a corps from that area from another town that stars in E.... and they used Easton for a while. Kinda like the Harrisburg/Wormleysburg/Mechanicsburg/Linglestown Westshoremen (and half those towns are on the EAST shore).
I honestly can't remember the name of the corps - it was "all-age" although they're members were wicked young - the time was about '98 or '99 as it's the last time I got fired from the Yankee Rebels that day - can't remember which time. Think I offered to pop someone at rehearsal - it was the right decision. I would have fired me too.
Anyhow - the senior corps from the ABE area with a Clarinet player that taught the brass line. That's all I remember.
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Ray, investing in a snow blower might be cheaper than deductibles, co-pays and/or the ultimate box. We'd like to have you around a bit longer.
Let it snow, Let it snow, Let it snow..........
Be careful friend.
My wife, Carolyn Lamont - like the Loch Lomond Lamonts - is descended from the Scots - and is the cheapest living human being.
I'm pretty sure that her philosophy is a) keeps me out of the house; b) she doesn't have to shovel it. c) maybe I'll die and things will be quieter. d) She won't have to keep going to drum corps things. She's one of those "Classically trained" musicians with her MMus in Composition from Boston U.
First time I took her to a show she said "that's pretty interesting. Can't those instruments be tuned?" (in this particular case the answer was no, as it was that little senior corps from Easton).
She claims the Blue Devils, the year Kevin or Danny aged out, are the only drum corps brass line she ever heard in tune.
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"Conservatoire du Trompette avec un Valve"
That's where the famous Bibliotheque de Arban houses the world's most extensive collection of triple tonguing passages, including the Martin and Wilkie archives.
It's in the Pavilion de Amerigo Laus, right next to the bronze cast of the Bouche de Pepe.
Oui monsieur!
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Off topic - although there hasn't been a topic in a while - some amazing players and teachers up for vote in the Buglers' Hall of Fame this winter.
Boggles my mind when I see some of these folks' names and think about their careers.
Glad (honored) that I slipped through the cracks before some of these younger cats started to be considered.
There's one young man up for consideration that played in a group I taught for a year and I taught him not a single thing, while he taught me a pile.
A student of Professor Swan's of course, at the "Shore de Jersey Conservatoire du Trumpet avec Un Valve"
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Waiting to hear some tales of fun and sun from Mr Peashey.
After I come in from shoveling.
Have to be ready for tonight's 3 - 6 " before Saturday's 18" which we'll pile I have no idea where, with 12' - 18' walls of snow on both sides of the driveway.
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... Man I'm tired - when did I get so old?
Hmmmm ... my guess is that it started somewhere around 1952 ...
:-)
When I was 1?
####, the good years just don't last, do they?
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Well it's over down here on the gold coast of Conn. we got 2".........wad'ya get?
About 24" but huge drifts due to 25 mph + winds.
Took me 5 hrs to shovel today and I still have my car to clear - piles and piles and piles of snow.
Man I'm tired - when did I get so old?
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Brace yourself Ray......your car is about to dissapear...........again!
It has begun...
In from the pre-shovel shoveling...
Drum Corps News / Drum Corps World- Old Copies
in Historical Junior Corps Discussions
Posted
I'd like these if the shipping isn't crazy.