MJHarry

I first wrote Ed when I was a member of Philadelphia PAL Cadets in the early 1970s and Ed had his column in Drum Corps News. When I went in the Army, I continued to write to Ed and it was he who encouraged me to write articles about the Northwest corps for Drum Corps News. In 1978, Ed told me to try my hand at shooting drum corps photos of those same Northwestern corps. During a trip to Madison for WGI Finals in 1979, I was introduced to Bobby Hoffman who invited me to Bridgemen's next rehearsal camp in Jersey City. I hadn't given it a lot of thought, until Ed asked me if I was going to march with Bridgemen. I never did find out how he knew I sat in with Bridgemen's baritone line that weekend. Ed, even after all these years, still like to use the nickname "Dirty Harry" I picked up thanks to a PAL snare drummer, Mike O'Leary in 1971. (Yes, even before Clint Eastwood's movies ... lol .. which Ed and I had to laugh when he was a cop). I believe Ed also made sure Bridgemen knew of the nickname, probably by telling contra, Patrick Forker - the cop in the 1978 program. I can remember meeting up with Ed when Bridgemen got to Whitewater that summer of 1979 and he asked if Bridgemen were going to make finals in Birmingham. We had been getting beat by Guardsmen, Crossmen, 27th Lancers and North Star and it wasn't looking good. Ed was very happy when Bridgemen not only made finals, but placed 6th in Birmingham and Ed asked me when the decision was made to have the "South" with the "battle?" He cracked up when I told him I hadn't even noticed, but you had to love the response from the audience. Ed was genuinely sad when Bridgemen went in active in the mid 80s. It was sad to see how much Parkinson's Disease rob us of a little more of Ed each year. The last 5 years I've been driving for Pioneer and spending more time in Wisconsin and always looked for Ed whenever at one of the shows in Wisconsin or Minnesota. Ed was kind enough to amswer questions I had about Parkinson's when my mother was diagnosed with the disease a couple years ago. It really is an evil affliction that slowly robs a person of their muscle function. Ed fought the affects of Parkinson's to the end ... I know when he could no longer drive it really bothered him. It was extremely sad to hear about Ed passing away, but as Steve Vickers reminded me ... he's in a better place. Medications have kept me from having much alcohol these last few years, but tonight, I'll have a beer for Ed and maybe order a pizza, too. Farewell my friend ... enjoy the rest .. you've earned it.

Do ALL judges use those boxes and corresponding scores or have some developed their own scales? Even with those boxes the judging system is still subject to the opinions of the judge. So how can someone argue their corps deserves a better score if there is nothing concrete to use as a reference. Its all subjective and everyone has their own likes and dislikes. A corps can go out and perform their collective butss off and receive one score then go out the next night and perform just as well and get a different score ... all because judge A feels one way about the show and judge B feels another way. And if they are all using the same system ... why does a corps staff get concerned over a judge on the panel that hasn't seen them yet? If they are all using the same references and same system it shouldn't matter who the judge is ... if the performances are equal ... shouldn't they receive the same score? Harry

Jeff ... Its not the availability of recaps online. The only useful purpose I see for recaps is the historical preservation of scores. IF Drum Corps World didn't devote so much space to publish recaps ... maybe there would be room for more photos? What would people rather see photos or recaps? I'm sure it depends on who you ask. Recaps are a fact of drum corps life and there is no doubt that there is an interest in them ... otherwise, I doubt Drum Corps World and Drum Corps Planet would devote so much space to them. From the accountability standpoint ... I understand and respect that some believe recaps provide transparency needed to keep scores honest. I've seen judges refer to a sheet on the bottom of their clipboard while they are considering their score after a corps pereformance. I've asked a couple judges what they are looking at and been told by a couple its a scale they use to generate a score that will agree with their opinion of the show. I've even had a couple judges show me the scale they use ... and it has nothing to do with recaps. But are all judges using a similar scale? Does DCI create these scales or does each judge have his own scale? As long as the system is based on opinions how can anyone say their opinion is better than anyone elses and that the scores they are giving out are better than anyone elses? If a judge knows a corps has been getting the highest music scores over the last couple of nights ... should that have any bearing on what the corps recieves for that nights performance? Or should all corps start at 0 each night? Going back to Utopia ... Harry

Jeff .. you are right about the 1979 broadcast ... it was a year or two later they started cutting in live and aired only the top 6. Not accusing the judges of recap hunting ... I don't think they are necessarily cheating either. I do believe recaps have a hand in the slotting of corps. The reaction of corps staffs after a score isn't what they think it should be is understandable, but how is it constructive to question the numbers a judge gives another corps compared to your own numbers? Obviously he thinks they did a better job Corps B's score is higher and the spread is also a matter of opinion. I'm sure there are some judges who know what a corps has been recieving for their particular caption scores and then give them a score based on whether or not they were better or worse than their last score? Should their previous scores be relivant to what they recieve after any given night's performance? I don't think so. Each and every corps should recieve a number reflective of that night's performance and judges should be able to explain how they arrived at that number based on their opinion of that particular night's program and performance level on that given night. Whatever number he or any other judge gave them a night or week before that should not matter. Harry

Hmmm ... so going into a ctitique and telling a judge his score for another corps is out of line helps your corps score? With the system we have now .. judges come to a number based on their experience and opinion of that nights performance, yes? So how can anyone go into a critique and tell a judge his numbers are wrong for any corps, but their own? Is the judge not entitled to his opinion? And why should a judge listen to anyone telling him he has made a mistake? I would think it would be more constructive to go into a critique and query the judge about their own corps performance. Trying to find out what they are doing right and where they need improvement. Knowing why a judge gave another corps a higher score than your corps should be easy to understand .. he had a higher appreciation for their program and performance. Isn't that what the numbers are suppose to reflect? Is it more productive to go into a critique trying to convince a judge that you hornline is better than another corps hornline instead of trying to find out what its going to take to get higher numbers? Is there an intimidation factor? So that next time the judge sees the corps he'll give them a higher number than the last time? I would certainly hope not. The placement of the corps really isn't the job of the judges ... Aren't they suppose to give a number based on the corps performance without regard to whether or nots its higher than Corps A. If Corps A does the better job they'll get the higher score .. right? And the final placements will come as a result of the total of all the scores awarded by the judges. Drum corps doesn't use ordinances like those used in figure skating does it? Have a good weekend one and all ... tour starts soon! Harry

Sure keep them for archival purposes. I understand and respect those who believe publicized recaps keep the system honest and transparent. Does that mean without them it wouldn't be? I know a good many judges and appreciate the hard task they've taken on. However, I do believe free flowing recaps make it easy for some to play it safe and assign a number to a corps performance thats in the ball park of what a corps has been scoring lately. How often have I heard corps staff upset that a corps score suddently took a dive in one particular caption, because there was a judge on the panel that was seeing the corps for the first time? If anything .. that shows the honesty in the system. Now if one corps and only one corps gets dumped that night, yes, there may be a problem OR that one corps may have just had a bad night. BUT, if all the corps in that contest receive scores proportionately different in that same caption across the board, maybe that judge has different standards and arrives at his numbers differently than other judges. Just because a corps has recieved a 9.0 (for example) five straight contest and then one night they get a 8.1 does that mean the corps did not perform at the same level it had been or does that night's judge see things differently? IMHO, thats the problem with the system we have now ... compared to the old tick system where there was penalties=ticks for mistakes ... and yes, of course that sysem had its problems, too. Knowing that Corps A beat your hornline by 0.01 means what? And how can anyone actually teach kids to be 0.01 better? If I learned anything from Bobby Hoffman & Dennis DeLucia during my time in Bayonne Bridgemen it was that better numbers come from performing better. And ... that you don't need to be on the field trying to BEAT another corps, but simply giving the best performance you can and letting the numbers fall where they may. I'd rather perform for thousands of paying fans than the green clad people who are being paid to be there and evaluate you. As far as the whole fantasy corps thing ... I don't do it, so it simply doesn't affect me and if thats how you wanna spend your time ... knock yourself out. The kids who put on these shows have enough stress dealing with the many aspects of touring and performing at the high level that is expected of them. So how is it productive or constructive for them or anyone to know that Corps A's hornline beat them by 0.2 last night? The corps tally at the end of the night is reflected by the corps placement and thats how the activity rewards its corps. Yes there are awards given out for high percussion, brass & colorguard. I also have no problem with that ... so if Corps A is given a best percussion award ... does it really matter if they bested Corps B by 0.02? I don't see how it should ... I guess its all a matter of philosophy. I can remember getting beat by Guardsmen, Crossmen and North Star during the early parts of the 1979 season. Do I remember what the corps weaknesses were ?? No. I also don't remember ever hearing that Corps A beat us in brass by whatever. Other corps caption scores were of no concern to us. We were focused on one thing .. making finals and getting on TV (Back then only the top 6 corps were televised). Doing our best and improving our program without regard to what others were doing is what brought us to a 6th place finish in Birmingham ... not worrying about who scored what in any caption on a given night. Did the staff look at recaps ... sure, but I believe while they were looking at how we ranked among the other corps they wedre more concerned with how we could improve our own numbers and place better at the end of each night. Other than the fantasy corps and satisfying some people's curiosity .... what constructive purpose do recaps serve? Harry

Sorry no time for fantasies ... Harry

No John .. never taught. But as an instructor of Corps B ... should you even be concerned with Corps A's scores? I've never been involved with the teaching aspect of the activity, but find it hard to believe instructors go into a critique to tell a judge their horn line (Corps A) is better than Corps B and the judge made a mistake. With an opinion based system like drum corps have now ... corps are subject to the evaluation a judge gives a corps ... and the number the judge produces should be generated by the corps performance at that time. When Corps A outscores Corp B in brass ... it should be telling Corps A's staff their corps performance was the best of the night and in the opinion of the judge Corps B was not as good. I would think Corps B's staff would then try to improve their own corps performance level and not worry about what Corps A is doing. I don't think recaps should be kept secret ... I think they should be abolished. Harry

******************************************************************************** ************************** Here you are comparing apples to oranges. In sports such as baseball, football, basketball and hockey there are no judges. Referees and umpires are there to enforce the rules .. not to give a player or team an evaluation. The players numbers (stats) come from their own personal accomplishments and go up or down based on the individual players performance not someone's opinion of their performance. Spots like gymnastics and figure skating have been subject to the opinion based scoring for years and lok at what a mess that is in now and why they are changing their system to reward those who strive for excellence and attempt new and innovating movements. Drum corps performances should be evaluated each night based on that night's level of excellence ... not on what they've been acheiving lately. So .. other than providing everyone with the breakdown of how a corps various components compared to another corps ... what purpose do recaps serve? And should Corps A's performance on June 30 have any impact on Corps A's score or ranking on July 15? As far as the whole fantasy thing ... I prefer reality ... Harry

************************************************************ Is it the responsibility of the judges to design shows or evaluate the performance and its programs components? This should probably start a whole other thread, but I always thought judges were adjudicators and not designers. Sure the judge can say he doesn't like a certain aspect of a program and then produce a number based on his opinion of the performance and the shows elements. Then the corps program designer can act accordingly ... making changes based on the results of the performance and a judges suggestions. Not making changes suggested by a particular judge, because you know he will be judging prelims during finals in four weeks. Corps should be evaluated based on their performance each and every night .. regardless of who designed it .. and not who can make a better argument during a critique. Harry

What can they do if another corps is scoring higher? Tell the judge he made a mistake? Of course not. I don't attend the post contest meetings with the judges, but I doubt very much that instructors are asking judges why another corps scored higher than them. Other corps scores should be irrelivent to what a corps is trying to achieve. I would hope the discussions between staff and judges during critiques focus on their own scores and how they can improve their own numbers. I can't thinkk of any reason why any corps staff should comment or be concerned with another corps scores. What impact can corps A have on corps B's scores? How can Corps A benefit from knonwing what Corps B scored in any caption? Will the staff say .. ok Corps B got a 10 so we need to do the same thing to get a 10 ourselves? Of course not. Everyone should concentrate on doing their OWN thing to achieve their own best score and let the numbers fall where they may. Harry

NONE AT ALL .. they serve no constructive purpose. Harry

I believe recaps contribute to the slotting of corps and see nothing positive in their being generated and distributed to the corps and published. Sure fans are interested in what a certain corps is scoring compared to another corps, those numbers can be produced after the season is over. What good does it serve for a corps caption head to have not only his scores, but the scores of his competitors? A brass instructor can tell his hornline what they scored and how close they are to beating another corps, but should beating the other corps be their motivation or producing a superior product for the fans? Personally, I believe numbers come from performing at your best not trying to be better than anyone but yourself. I'd like to see the judges restricted from bring anything to the competition other than their tape recorders, pens and blank clibboards. Harry