iamnivtop

So far it seems like we have good arguments on bth sides of the aisle here. It also seems that while some are strting to concede points here and there, others are staying rather staunch in their thinking. So let me get back to the whole point of my thread. I'm just looking for discussion on how to re-capture the fan base that feels (again, not everyone feels this way) that today's system of judging does not accurately reward the performance, therefore making the outcomes of most shows too predictable regardless of how it was performed. My idea was to incorporate a low percentage of the score based on a tic system, whether that system be based on noticable tears or individual errors is moot. It's just a way to reward the show which executes. As a previous poster stated in a diving analogy, if there is no difficulty in the show or no risks taken, regardless of how clean that show is, it will not over take a riskier show performed even at a moderate level. The ratio of the system just will not allow that. That being said, can anyone think of another way to satisify some of the old fan base used to that type of system. IOW something where we would say 'Belleville had a better show but Audobon was just so much cleaner, I can see why they beat them.' Oh, and please don't tell me that the current system covers that. Again, the point of this thread is to cover options.

Good point Tom, but I would like to see the accountabiloity factor during the show itself, somehow.

Found a couple more. It's just taking some time for me to get this scanner thing down.

Now that's better!

That's okay, it was '77. On an indoor stage. At night. In Newark. Alright we were mostly wasted, okay? There. Happy now? Jeez.

Won't mention the corps or tour, but we had a busdriver who was on loan from the city. Everytime we would stop he would just be nasty and then go out and get himself drunk, sleep it off till after the show, and then be all stinky and nasty again. After about three days of this (which when you're a teenager on tour seems like weeks) my friend, yes I had a friend, and I snuck back wto the bus while the corps was warming up and duct taped him to the drivers seat while he was asleep. Poor ######## was there for about four hours! he did stay nasty, but he stopped drinking! Oh yeah, we stole his booze also!

Finally! A convert!

Did someone say....................old school?

After what CNN quoted you as saying? Stop flip-flopping!!!

Okay, I'll go along with that. Wait a minute..........

But do you really feel that judging is as fair as it can be right now? Does the same top six or seven corps really perform with such consistency that none of the others should have a chance to 'out perform' them?

Okay everyone, mark this day and time on your calendar!! Mike actually made (what can be construed in a very round about way) a negative comment about today's drum corps!!! Let's go CNN on his butt!...... So Mike, what you're actually saying is that today's pits in drum corps sound like hurdy-gurdy machines that play obligatory, meaningless fills and you're also stating that since orchestras don't have seven or nine keybords in their performance, there is no room for more than two of them in drum corps today. Isn't this in fact an indictment on today's system in general? Are you really trying to say that you are, in fact, supportive of old school style and secretly carry tally sheets to the shows you attend and grade them on a tic system? Film at eleven!!! If nothing else, I know you're a good sport, I'd say 'God bless you', but that's a whoooole other thread!

No! Not wasting your time at all! It seems that many of us are sticking to he validity of our points. Which is why I thought that a hybrid system would be a good answer. Of course you couldn't subject the drill or the guard to a tic system the way that they perform now. However, I still feel that there has to be a way to discern between perfomances with a bit more accuracy than is currently being used. I also feel that if there could be an 'any given night' intensity brought to shows that a lot of people who abandoned supporting drum corps will come back.

I can agree with they are 'supposed' to do. I'm just wondering if there is a way for other corps to gain advantage in placement throughout the season. IOW should Belleville still win because they do have won the last seven shows, yet Audobon came in and was much cleaner with what may not be as good concept show? There. Those corps names shouldn't offend anyone! Maybe the word that I'm really looking for to describe this is 'parity'.

Mike, what I mean by expanding the activity is the fact that although there are many, many fans of what DC is today, I believe that there can be even more if some of the previous accountability systems are restored. Again, only as a small percent. I know that there are also many who feel that DC has lost something over the years. I'm just trying to think of ways of discussing how to keep a bit of suspense and unpredictability in the competition. Maybe a 'tic' system isn't ideal. Maybe there is another way to throw in a factor of unpredictability to the outcome of a show. Let's discuss that also. BTW as a member of Jack Taylor's drills, we were always getting hit for bizzare things that judges couldn't understand. I recall one actually said, 'I can't judge that witchcraft crap!' We were playing Berlioz and Ding dong the Witch is Dead!

'What may be errors'? Mike, the whole point of the discussion of this thread (which is staying civil and on track. Thank you everyone!) was to incorporate what are obviously two subjective types of judging. There will always be opinions and human error and bias (remember, I judged brass execution for a short time in the GSC). I still feel, as do others, that in finding a way to expand the activity and keep some past members and fans involved is to let them know that what we perceive as accountability for execution remains. Yes, I understand that execution is taken into account with the current system, but IMHO adding a tic system to account for a minor portion of overall score will give the shows an outcome that can actually change on any given night. Not just wondering which of the top two corps will win because the judges decided in June which 'concept' was best.

So what I need someone to explain to me is how holding a horn line or battery accountable for only a small portion of the overall scoring is going to ruin what is now a show judged totally based on opinion?

Which is the whole point of this thread, Mike!

Good point. But if it's controlled by an existing caption judge, using a new style of sheet that focuses on the overall effect of the tear on the ensemble, then maybe the shows can go back to an 'any given night' type of scenario. will this still allow for judging to be arbitrary regarding how they tic? Absolutely. But it's already there anyway with the build up system.

I agree with what your saying to a point. As said in my OP I believe that the majority of the scoring should be based on a build-up system. But IMHO I feel that there should be a challange to be as clean as possible also. This way if a corps waters down a performance to pick up an extra ten points in execution, they will suffer on the overall side, however the corps that can put together a knock down drag out show plus execute, well, hot-#### Margo, they deserve to win that night. BTW, do away with the 'high horns' or 'high drums' trophy. It's all to be judged as an overall experience. Would just think that maybe a clean Crown would then be in the top three, or a clean Cadets can win the whole thing if another top three corps has an off night execution wise (okay, so that I don't offent anone, just insert the corps of your choice instead of the ones I mentioned!).

Alright. I mostly accept the evolution that has brought DC to the point it is today. But I have one point that I would like to bring up for discussion, judging. Many posters have stated that the old 'tic' system was too arbitrary, certain judges would be harder on one corps over another. However, my contention is that, since scoring has gone to a 'merit' system, this just makes it way too easy for judges to give merit based on previous placements and keep certain corps from coming up in the ranks regardless of how clean they execute their show. Again, this is just my opinion, but why not give us old school guys some love and put a portion of the scoring back to a 'tic' system. IOW if a corps has a hyper show but can't perform it cleanly, they get marks against them based on some basic captions. If a corps executes cleanly but has a real snoozer of a show, they don't get the merit points. This would differ from the old system in that the current way of judging would be dominant, there would only be a maximum of let's say five points each for brass and percussion. Obviously the old rules for judging marching and guard can't apply any longer, but should promote corps to play as clean a show as possible. This would also allow for some surprises when it comes to the final outcome of each show. Hope I expressed this clearly. How about some discussion? Oh, and let's leave out the usual pro-anti-amp out of this for now. They're here, they're judged under presentation categories or somewhere, deal with it. I'm just trying to look forward to DCI again and knowing that the results would have some basis on execution would be a real bright spot for me.

All I know is that somebody forgot to change the emblem on their shako!

Not a picture, but some really good info on the sizes and styles of the different corps that didn't make finals at '74 Ithica. Enjoy!

I may have abetter pic somewhere, I'll check.

Part of the requirements for the new Circuit are that if you play it, you have to carry it. And all brass must be in G!