bgg80
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Posts posted by bgg80
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This post make me lol. Please show me posts where I've said any of the bolded text.
Not sure why you sent this to me at all.
You were actually the first poster to raise the whole booing thing: "Anyway not gonna freak out. In fact the only thing that freaked me out tonight was hearing those boos from the West Coast fans ! Didn't expect that -- at all."
Then: "Maybe fans are slightly more knowledgeable than you give them credit for. Maybe they're perceiving -- not subtle differences (because those differences would not motivate people to react strongly) -- but larger, significant differences in excellence and think the panel just plain got it wrong. Crowds can see when things (and performers) hit the ground, things don't go around together, performers struggling to make their dots, forms which hit late or not at all, props which don't move together at all. Granted there's more to the sheets than those things -- but those things ARE on the sheets. And they're pretty fundamental. You don't get credit for sophisticated design if you can't execute it do you?
Both corps are very dirty -- but was there an unmistakable difference in degree?
I'm with you, Plan -- booing is graceless. But your past explanations fall a little short in the face of last night."
Then: "So don't lump me in with the barbaric hoard in Stanford (who -- in all your previous posts -- were discerning, sophisticated drum corps fans) . I saw the shows over the intertubes from 1000's of miles away."
Then: "So THAT'S what those 20 black busses with the tinted-out windows were? Crown hired a mob to attend the West Coast shows JUST to perpetuate the rumor that fans like Crown."
I responded to you and other posters because you and others were making the significant leap that a small minority of people in the stands booing Crown's second place was the general audience. Your comments above clearly infer that. Heck .. you actually started this particular (and this time I'll use quotes properly) "only thing that freaked me out was hearing those boos from the West Coast fans" dialogue on this topic chain. Simply put -- from my vantage point, it was limited, and a combination of younger kids who should know better and some scattered folks wearing Crown garb. Saw what I saw and heard what I heard. Anyways -- I'm sure you'll just say you didn't say anything verbatim that I mentioned in my email. I'll let everyone else (probably no one cares anymore) judge the spirit of your comments.
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What a lot of folks don't understand is that the Blue Devils and BD alumni are all HUGE fans of SCV. We all want Vanguard to be amazing and competitive, because it's way more fun for everyone. Nothing is better than having your rival drive real competition. The best years in DCI were when Devils and Vanguard were fighting each other night in and night out.
Well said!
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Holy tin foil hats Batman!!
So THAT'S what those 20 black busses with the tinted-out windows were? Crown hired a mob to attend the West Coast shows JUST to perpetuate the rumor that fans like Crown.
hang on a sec
There you go, jumping back to the assumption that there was overwhelming booing and rejection in the stands. So to be clear: When Crown was announced in second place, there were certainly boos ... I'd estimate at best 5% or so of everyone there. NOT the whole stadium.... trust me. So please lose the "I was so shocked that BD's OWN crowd boo'd like crazy" stuff. I looked around, to see who was doing it. Saw a couple of high school age kids booing to my left, one section over. Saw several folks with Crown shirts on to my right gafawwing and booing. That's what I saw, and that's it. Now ... there were also many people surprised by the result. I'd say at least half of the audience. But it was surprise and conversation and "oh wow's", not booing. I'm sure at least half of the stadium disagreed with the results. Why? Crown really does have an amazing show and it is both sophisticated and crowd accessible. BD's show is oozing with excellence driven by the talent and creativity driven by the kids and staff. But it is definitely not a "throw the babies" kind of show like Crown accomplishes year in and year out. The crowd at Stanford, which is certainly not filled 90% with BD fans (SCV, a lot of Freelancers jackets (miss em!) parents of kids in other corps, alumni, high school kids, etc. etc.), is what I would consider to be pretty sophisticated. I'm sure if the winner were based on audience vote, Crown would have taken it w more than half the stadium. But NOT 90% of the stadium, including masses of disillusioned BD fans/alumni, as some on this board would like to think. The "buzz" I heard around me from folks that looked and sounded DCI savvy was along the lines of "I'm not sure what that Crown show was, but I LOVED it", and "That BD show is pretty out there, but wow do they perform the hell out of it, and have more room to develop it ... will probably win in August".
All this to say: BD gets beat when a competitor combines a great show concept with talent, performance, creativity and excellence across captions. This is what BD has been able to bring consistently, and what corps like the Cadets and definitely Phantom in 08 accomplish. It's why the Cavies won so much in the early 2000s. For Crown, they definitely have the concept and design to do it this year. Now they have to be excellent (i.e. top 1-2) across most, if not all, captions. I think this show is clearly a championship caliber show. Last year's was in design, but percussion and visual dirt held it back. This year's show is NOT a fourth place show, and not a second place show by 1+ points. I'm convinced it will either win or be second by a razor's edge in August.
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If they want the fans to hate their show and " have accomplished it " then they should have no beef at all with the crowd's reaction to it like this, nor should any of their MM's have any complaints either that good people that want to simply love their show feel so disappointed that BD set out.. if true... to essentially insult the good sensibilities of the paying customer. I don't accept the premise that BD show designers set out to essentially alienate national audiences. But if they did, shame on them, and God help this activity that intends to reward performers in competition that set out to intentionally alienate national coast to coast audiences like this.
I had to chuckle when I read your post congratulating this forum for keeping the "bile" at a minimum in discussing the Stanford show, then read this post again. Really...
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You've been pretty consistent in the past in tying the booing to "East Cost/Mid West" ABBD fans. You (and others) have also consistently pointed out that it *never* happens on the West Coast.
So...was the Stanford crowd flown in from Indy and Allentown?
Or are the WC fans suddenly ABBD?
Just curious.
I'll just throw this out there:
Maybe fans are slightly more knowledgeable than you give them credit for. Maybe they're perceiving -- not subtle differences (because those differences would not motivate people to react strongly) -- but larger, significant differences in excellence and think the panel just plain got it wrong. Crowds can see when things (and performers) hit the ground, things don't go around together, performers struggling to make their dots, forms which hit late or not at all, props which don't move together at all. Granted there's more to the sheets than those things -- but those things ARE on the sheets. And they're pretty fundamental. You don't get credit for sophisticated design if you can't execute it do you?
Both corps are very dirty -- but was there an unmistakable difference in degree?
I'm with you, Plan -- booing is graceless. But your past explanations fall a little short in the face of last night.
A lot of sweeping generalizations. I was there too. It was not a huge chorus of boos. It was limited, but vocal, minority. Mostly younger kids, and at least near me, honestly, folks with Crown attire on.
The recaps are telling. Both corps have a lot of cleaning to do ... it's June for crying out loud! With this panel, all of the content/repertoire/sbst across the captions except for GE Music were won by BD. Some of the execution/performance categories (CG, Brass, GE Music) were won by Crown. So at least last night, the opinion of the panel was that BD had the better design (this is where I think the disagreement lies), and the execution was mixed.
On execution -- You call out making the dots, forms that hit late, props that don't move together ... visual ensemble and proficiency issues. The visual proficiency judge (IMO probably the most opinion-light judging job) on the field certainly didn't see it that way, as this caption had a wider gap (0.5) than any other sub-caption, including percussion. Visual ensemble was a 0.2 gap, with both comp and achievement higher. I honestly agree with both. If anyone watches the BD hornline do their visual warmup, and then how they take that technique onto the field, you'll have a better appreciation for how well this corps marches. I know this goes against the grain, but I think the conventional wisdom that BD marches easy drill, and not very well, is ancient history. I think they are consistently delivering both a difficult drill, and marching performance/technique that is second to none. None better than Todd Ryan+BD talent on this front. Honestly I saw a (slightly) more difficult visual package from BD, with more exposure both as a group and individually. That played out with this panel in their scoring.
Of course -- as soon as a different panel judges these shows, everything may flip around again. :) That's how close I think these two corps are to each other. I will admit that I only got the chills once .. it was Crown's opener. Really a excellent show. I think/hope the top 2 (3?) could have the tightest gap at finals ever. I miss the days when any of the top 3 could win. I think it was 1983 when SCV won semis with BD and Garfield tying (all had 91s) and then Garfield wins finals, BD 2, SCV 3. That would be good drama!
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My movie analogy was blockbuster fan favorite vs critical favorite. I enjoy both, but one type tends to win Oscars more often.
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And btw BRASSO, a lot of fans of other corps around me were also wowed. I didn't see anyone throwing up their hands in insult, horror and disgust. Goofiness.
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BRASSO -- for goodness sake, take it easy and turn down the dramatics. I was there, and was sitting with many, many BD fans who certainly weren't insulted or infuriated by BD's amazing performance. Quite the contrary, we were all #### impressed. We were also #### impressed by Crown. Don't let your intense competive opinions get in the way of what I think most people experienced live tonight -- a lot of amazing kids with great talent performing great shows.
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Just left show. I'll do a review tomorrow. Briefly though -- everyone was great! Better season than last year.
Few quick thoughts:
- The judges got it right. Visually, both in their repertoire and performance, they have an edge over Crown. The drill is very difficult with both ensemble and individual demand that is a bit Crown. Guard and percussion a tick above Crown too. The level of visual effect and performance is very sophisticated, and more ceiling room than Crown, IMO.
- Crown is just awesome. Wonderful show design that will absolutely contend. Brass line is unreal, and deserved their win tonight (think they did, right?). I retract my complaints on narration -- it really works. I didn't realize it was live performers. BUT -- the love poem thing is just a distraction. I kept on getting drawn away from the great sound and visuals to watch this guy recite (although he is a great speaker)
- SCV -- love em -- reminds me on Phantom shows. Drum corps at its best, as it used to be.
More later.
P.s. yes -- some boos. Mostly kids and, at least around me, looked to be Crown families. I was surprised. I do understand the frustration. Crown to me is "red meat" drum corps. Draws big reactions with big loud chords at the end. BD definitely doesn't end this show (are w sure this isn't the closer?) for a screaming audience. Around me, the reaction was "whoa .... Amazing". But everyone is thinking about it. I liked BD better for the visual feast and the sheer talent and excellence in achievement across all captions. I LOVE Crown for their mainstream crowd appeal and yes ... excellence. To me, it's like two excellent movies vying for the Oscar. The big blockbuster (Avatar/Crown) and the virtuoso performance that makes you say wow, but doesn't make you erupt in applause (Hurt Locker/BD). Cameron lost that night. We'll see here! Neither will run away w it like BD last year and 2010. Will be tight all the way, and we'll see about Cadets! Great season!
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I watched the youtube video (yes, I am basing my comments on a VIDEO) and I gotta say how much I love that hornline. They are incredible. That narration though is really annoying, especially in the ballad. Either way, they are looking and sounding great for June. Can't wait to see them at Finals.
I agree wholeheartedly. Hornline is just outstanding. The narration is just distracting at best, and with that ballad, just plain cheesy. As a BD fan, the only show I didn't like was 2005 Dance Derby show, because the awful narration distracted and took away from some great music. I also couldn't get used to the french dude yacking away in last year's show. Cadets in 2008 ... ugh ... cheesy. Here, with Crown 2013, we have an amazing hornline, outstanding music, and that incessant counting by a fake choir stamping over what would have been excellent musical moments. Now, if were just that counting blather, that's one thing ... but the ballad with the lover poem thing ... cringe worthy! This corps does NOT need that much narration. It's strength is their amazing hornline and musicality. Let it shine through uninterrupted!
Drumline sounds pretty good ... probably improved from what was relatively a weakness last year. Visually, a very interesting and challenging drill. Will probably be easier to clean and have clarity vs last year. UNiform color does indeed make the corps look smaller to me. Those transparent flags in the ballad are hard to see, at least on YouTube video.
Overall -- can't wait to see them at Stanford! Wonderful music! I'm going to try and block out that narration though. Just NOT necessary, IM(maybe not so)HO. Wonder if DCP community will have as violent a reaction to it as they did with Cadets and BD in the past...
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Just finished listening a few times. AWESOME! I'm looking forward to seeing the "pre-show". The background chants at the beginning sound like they get the crowd involved. Then, BAM! Hornline kicks in. The first 1 1/2 minutes is beautiful...lush, then, Mingus from 1996. Powerful. Then, my favorite part is Bird & Bela B Flat from 1991. Unreal hornline, and I can't wait to see with current BD visual package Gymnopedies is a strange take. Off balance, then a great hour riff sequence. Drum solo is really cool. Last piece on the recording is very jazzy/swing. Think it is the Elfman piece. I noticed Rhapsody in Blue on the rep. Not on the recording. My guess is the ending isn't cooked. Never is for BD at this point.
Very, very impressive. I think it will be a crowd pleaser. I'm starting to get this Dada theme, with the back forth between structure and chaos. Very, very powerful book. Can't sit to see the visual and guard interpretation. Definite contender for 15!
Edit: the beautiful piece near beginning is Morrison Mania by James Horner. Very nice playing and arrangement.
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First off, congratulations to the Cadets on #10!
I honestly don't have time to go back and look through the 73 pages of posts, but I have a question that may have already been answered:
How did Cadets win the visual title? Blue Devils scored a 29.05, 29.35, and a 29.65, which, averaged, is a 29.35. Cadets scored a 29.1, 29.05, and a 29.45 for an average of 29.2.
I think the caption was just visual performance, not overall visual (not sure why) If you think about it, Cadets winning visual performance (field judge) was a real key to their victory, other than their monster GE scores. The big question was always how clean they could be on the field with the difficult drill. They certainly erased doubt.
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What a great season! Very competitive! As a die-hard Blue Devil supporter, I am very proud of the corps and what they accomplished this season. It's been an amazing run from 2007-2011. Three titles, and two silvers. The improvement from June to August this year was amazing. Congratulations to the BD guard! Best in the business!
All that said, a hearty congratulations to the Cadets and their fans. I must say this show truly deserved to win. Amazing concept, visuals, music .. the works. My favorite Cadets show since ... 1984! (that was a tough .1 of a point...) :) I felt coming into this week that it would come down to the Cadets' GE advantage vs BD's visual execution and overall musical excellence. Well ... BD had the slight visual edge, but tied with Cadets in overall music. The GE gap was well deserved. Beautiful show!
Watch out though for next year! Do it up Devils!
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Interesting recaps from the TOC show last night. A few key captions went against the grain:
- BD placed 5th in GE music. I honestly don't see that happening Thurs/Fri/Sat.
- BD beat Cadets in GE visual by .2. First time this happened this year?
- Cadets beat BD in visual performance. Goes against conventional wisdom that BD is cleaner.
Shaping up to be a very close, exciting finish next week!
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I've always felt that BD moves beautifully and has incredible demand in their show -- not just in how much frenetic drill with commonly-used rotating segmented lines, lines moving at fast speeds in opposite directions for that oooh/ahhh appeal, etc. -- but how they spread the field, perfect staging, a heavy amount of individual exposure both musically and visually, AMAZING horn/percussion sections and a color guard that maximizes visual and GE impact. When I see them live, they've always had a distinct "wow" factor to me that combines virtuosity, making everything look easy and great music.
The interesting thing to me is how consistently (2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 .. now increasingly in 2011 as BD ups their game) the DCI judging community awards them with very high content, repertoire and vocabulary scores in GE and visual captions. These are the sub captions that represent judgment, by a consistent cross section of the judging community, as measuring WHAT BD is doing.
Tonight:
Visual Repertoire: 1st and 2nd
Music Repertoire: 3rd and 2nd
Visual Performance Vocab: 1st
Visual Ensemble Comp: 1st
Visual CG Comp: 1st
To believe many posters on DCP, these captions should be far, far lower than their execution scores. Say 6th? 8th? 13th??? It is so BASIC and EASY! (eyeroll) Also -- for all of the complaining about how BD doesn't move and stands still for 50% of their show ... there are also several other critical areas that are often ignored:
- Color Guard (anyone argue that this group is outstanding?)
- Brass (consistently 3rd, but with that talent and staff ... this can certainly go up, as it is heavily tied to performance technically on the field)
- Percussion -- If you know percussion, you know BD was SMOKING hot tonight
- Music Ensemble -- I didn't hear any corps tonight match the balancing, intricacy and dynamic range of BD
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UGGGGGH!!! As much as I HATE to admit it, you're right. BD has done what they usually do, march and play the crap out of their shows, and for that, they got what they deserved tonight.
COME ON CADETS!!! Still got my money on you.
2000Cadet -- I saw the Cadets live at Stanford. An amazing show. My favorite in a lonnnng time. That (new?) closer drill is the best visual in DCI this year. My guess is an extremely close finish ... a-la 1984 ... but hopefully reversed ;)
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Can someone explain to me how blue devils win all visual captions when they mostly sit or stand?
Easy -- they don't. Watch again. They also out-executed everyone else tonight. Very clean.
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YEAH BD! Do it up Devils! Way to take it tonight! Top 3 will be neck and neck for rest of the season! Exciting!
Those who booed .... classless. BD absolutely threw it down tonight, and deserved the win ... at least based on what I saw and heard on the webcast (btw -- amazing sound quality!). All the corps I saw were outstanding, work very hard, and none of these kids deserve to hear any boos.
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Watch out folks -- BD is reallllllly coming on strong to close the season. They are adding a TON of Music GE .. even since San Antonio. They've adding a lot of new voicing to Summer of 77 after the opener. Definitely the cleanest of the last four I saw. Demand isn't quite in the league of Cadets/Cavies, but honestly folks, it's not that far off ... and the judges agree when you look at recaps. Lot of rotating lines doesn't equal pure demand....
Amazing shows by the last four that I saw. All are very strong shows. I don't get Cavies show, but it sure is good. Crown is amazing brass and entertainment .. but cheesy. Cadets show is really amazing. Love it. BD is as smooth and sophisticated as I seen them ... and they are taking a show that was 4th or 5th in June/early July, and really, really improving. Should be an amazing finish! I predict BD wins a very tight one tonight....
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Cadets -- Amazing show concept, and beautiful visuals. I haven't liked Cadets this much since ..... 1984 :)
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Just tuned at starting at CC: Amazing brass! Fun show, but a lot of cheese factor.
Cavies: Best I've heard their brass in years. Great drill, but definitely some dirt throughout. OK ... the color guard. Really over the top for me. Outfits, movement ... and the guy at the end that gets "crowned" ... is he King Julian from Madagascar? I don't really understand the show (or I suppose the CG interpretation of the music), but it looks and sounds great. They still have some cleaning to do over the next two weeks. More than I would have thought given how they opened the season.
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I'm amazed that BD seems to have stalled.
Luckily it is early in the season and things can be fixed.
You are right. Not many Phantom fans in this forum.
Been waiting for the haters and sharks to hit.
Must be past their bedtime.
As for winning percussion and having highly rated brass, it doesn't seem to help the overal standing enough. Visual seems to get the scores! This is the first time in years that Phantom might contend visually - including guard.
It's exciting each time a new part is added to the show!
Your amazed that BD seems to have stalled? I'd say PR made a big jump more than BD has stalled. Cadets, BD and Cavies all are in the 77-78 range after the weekend. I really enjoyed PR at Stanford. Very classy show that reminded me what drum corps should be like.
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Just listened 3 times to let it soak in. Impressions:
- No abstract jazz here! Very musical, very melodic
- Horn line sounds amazing
- Opener (Home is Where the Heart Is) is beautiful, lush
- Summer of 77 very strong. Can't wait to see this number with BD visual, guard
- Say a Little Prayer ... predict a LOT of standing O's
- Not clear how the show will close (has there ever been a year in the past 20 when it was clear?)
Summary: Music is fun, melodic, open, and .. for all of those critics ... I'd say awfully ACCESSIBLE. Can't wait to see on the field!
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To me, this was a "Blue" year. Two other standouts:
Bluecoats -- an amazing show that was strong across all captions. Congratulations on your all-time high placement!
Blue Knights -- Saw them at Stanford, and gave them a standing ovation after Nimrod. Great show!
and of course -- Blue Devils B. What an outstanding show, and what an outstanding organization!
Stanford Showdown
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Darn -- I have the premium/BluRay Fan Network subscription, and I cannot find the Stanford show anywhere. When I click OnDemand 13, nothing shows up. :(