gellio
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Posts posted by gellio
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Fuel is over $4 and will be $5 a gallon by the end of the summer. Travel costs money. Gotta cut costs somewhere. Not judging some shows at all would have been their only other choice.
Then that's what they should have done. It's pointless to judge partially. Totally messed up. These scores mean absolutely nothing with out two major components being judged.
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lord, i had to fix that!
You are funny. I thought I cussed or something. I was merely stating that the omission of those two captions is messed up. I hope Crown beats Regiment in brass this year just because you did that :)
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An older couple in the audience in Rockford loved PR and Cavies show except for the violence!
Well, they're dumb. It's art! It's just like that crazy ##### Rosie refusing to have Blast on her show because of the use of rifles and sabers. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
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I think it is really DUMB that DCI doesn't have a full panel. What is the point of judging at all. Are brass and percussion even accounted for? I agree the absence of brass and guard on the sheets definitely hurts some of the groups out there. So, if Crown had the best guard and brass in Rockford, Stillwater, Mankato, is that even reflected at all. What kind of moron is running this show?
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You might very well be right. But, I know you know the BAC pretty well.....would YOU want them .9 behind you and out to prove something?
I wouldn't want anyone .9 behind me. I'm sure it alarmed Bluecoats. I love Boston - 2000 was classic, 2001 was one of my favorite shows, and I liked 2006 a lot as well. It's a tall order to take down any of last years top 7. I would love to see a shake up, so I hope I'm wrong. We shall see.
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With a new corps director, program coordinator, visual caption head, drill designer, guard caption head, and over 100 new members this year, I am curious as to what part of Boston has a "habit of peaking"?
We shall see. I just don't see Boston threatening (within a point) of any of last years top 6 corps. They are too good. I would also be VERY surprised if Boston were to beat Bluecoats at any point this season.
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To claim that it's a judging conspiracy is ridiculous
I agree. The judges are human. They may make mistakes (everyone does), but I doubt they are ever out to promote one corps to a higher position than they should be. If Colts, Madison or Blue Stars came out the best in Rockford, Colts, Madison or Blue Stars would have won - regardless of where they placed last year.
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Precisely. And in retrospect what are the odds in a performance and creative medium that the same 3 corps despite continual turnover of members, staff, designers etc, not to mention the vagaries of human performance between 135 performers night to night, would continue to win year after year. The fast and dirty answer is that there is entirely too much subjectivity in the activity. The fact that a Phantom Regiment for example has only one shared title in all their years is almost incomprehensible.
emphasis added, agree 100% Ive often wondered why they just dont award the medals directly to the show staffs and be done with it.
Because Cadets, Cavies and BD are the three best corps in the activity. Can you argue another should have won a title in a year one of these three won? Yes. I could argue Phantom should have won in 2006. They were close - a few tenths here or there and the outcome would have been different, but it wasn't. What's strange to me is Cavies winning GE Music and PR winning GE Visual in '06. I thought it would be reversed. But, when it comes down to it, the QUALIFIED judges do their job and they do it correctly. Whether you agree with it or not, it's the way it is. You, nor I, nor anyone else on here is even remotely qualified to judge.
I do not think it's incomprehensible that Phantom has one shared titled. Name a year they should have won outright? You could argue '89, just as you could argue '06 - but the point is, QUALIFIED judges put them 2nd in both years. What makes all of you so sure you're more qualified to judge any caption, as much as ALL captions.
The bottom line - the Cadets, BD and Cavies always win because they are the best, most talented, and most prepared corps on the field today. Until someone rises and is able to compete with these three, at their best, these three are going to continue to win.
It's sour-grapes IMO to whine about judging because your favorite corps isn't winning. I was very bitter towards judging in the 90's for this very reason. I grew up and figured the judges are more qualified than I.
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Why are you carrying such a LARGE chip on your shoulder? These are exchanges of OPINION, not necessarily fact. How factual can a discussion about an opinion based scoring model be?? However it is my opinion that the scoring system does indeed weigh the design of the shows far out of proportion to the performance thereof. In support I put it to you that it's unreasonable to expect that groups of 16 to 22 years olds can perform ANY material as consistantly as the performance scores we see indicate.
Now how does that parlay into your assumption that someone ipso facto got screwed is beyond me. Simply.. many (myself included) would prefer to see more weight of the adjudication process be dedicated to the performers, not the paid designers. We feel this would lend itself to a more exciting contest and a more accurate indication on how each corps performed in relation to the others on ANY GIVEN NIGHT. This in no way diminishes your opinion. Nor does it demean the activity. It's an opinion of what we as the paying public would like to spend our money on.
You have to remember that no one on here is qualified to judge any caption. At all. So, I'm sorry, but although I'll disagree with placements from time to time, none of us are qualified. Therefore, it's really stupid to say "so and so got screwed" because you're basically saying you're not only qualified to judge the caption you may be familiar with, but you're also qualified to judge ALL captions. That is absurd.
I would also HIGHLY disagree with your statement about design carrying more weight than performance, eventhough design should be a factor. If Corps A and Corps B perform at the same level, and Corps A has the better design, Corps A should (and will) get the better marks. Period. I could argue that aside from Cavies, SCV has had the best overall design much of this decade, yet they've only placed in the top 3 once (2004). I could also argue they had a better design than Bluecoats and Cadets in 2006, yet lost to both of them. Why? Because Bluecoats and Cadets executed better.
The bottom line - in close races for placements, arguments can be made for one corps beating another corps (regardless of the judges placements). I, myself, tend to believe the judges are capable of doing their job correctly. I can't believe for a second a judge would consciously place a corps lower than they should be.
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If you check out the caption rankings on dcp, looks like cadets are 9th in drums and overall performance? Bluecoats 11th in overall visual and 7th in drums? I don't think so...
I"m goin out on a limb here and saying that the first time Boston Bluecoats and Cadets meet the other top corps they haven't met yet, one, two or possibly all three of them could overtake phantom and cavaliers.... and obviously the west coast scores are inflated... i'm just soooo interested to see what will happen when all these corps meet head to head... IT COULD GET UGLY. MASS HYSTERIA WILL ENSUE.
I'll agree Cadets are probably right up there with Cavies and PR, but don't expect Bluecoats or Boston to beat Cavies or PR at any point this season, especially Cavies. Bluecoats could possibly beat them, but Boston has a habit of peaking. I think Boston no doubt sounds better.
There's still not substantial proof that west coast scores are inflated.
Can't compare scores from different shows.
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While I believe slotting does exist in the activity, I don't believe finals placements are set yet. It's early and a lot can happen. I'm sorry, but if it were that easy, then PR wouldn't have beaten BD in '05 or '06 and Bluecoats certainly wouldn't have beaten Cadets in '05. The corps that place well and make finals do so because they deserve to. Have a little faith in the judges - that they can do their job admirably.
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Just got a call from a friend that was at the show and he said Crown beat Phantom
Don't play with us.
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I really hate that guy from Flipping Out!
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they're all sitting at Denny's right now saying: "Did we forget something?.... Nahhhhhhh!" Then they head to the Motel 6 for the night.
No, they're at your mom's!
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It was 112 degrees here in Sunny CA (L.A. area) today... still jealous? No need for a stove this time of year... just throw some tinfoil on the patio for an eco-friendly cooktop.
I'm in SF. It was only 65 here today
Our summers suck. -
The funny part is that the west coast judges all likely saw the scores from last night and decided to do a little inflating anyways!!
That is dumb. Why do people always make such a big deal out of west coast inflation. We all know it happens. It doesn't have to be mentioned 800 times in the beginning of the season. Besides, the rest of the country is jealous of the west coast, especially California!
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I still contend (UNrelated to your post oldschooler) that the judging is a major issue - and I find it amazingly inconsistent year to year, week to week, day to day. And NOT just because of Madison's placement last night.
See, I find the judging very consistent - and for me, that's the problem. Example - SCV & PR in 2003. PR beat SCV by tenths of a point and many many many shows in a row. How is that possible? If two corps are THAT close, they should be flip-flopping. Corps should be going from say 74 one night, to 71 the next, to 75 the next and so forth. Everyone has off shows throughout the season, yet it is NEVER represented in the scores any more. When you look back to the first three decades of DCI, we saw this. Not so much since 2000. Sure corps passed up other corps, but we never seem to see corps trading places from night to night. That happened to some extent last year with the Bluecoats beating everyone at one point, but it doesn't happen enough. And, it should.
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Again, as I mentioned before, people do tend to hype Madison in hopes for them to come back the next year stronger than ever. I've learned to ignore the hype and appreciate the shows for what they are.
Oh, and no other corps get hyped on DCP?
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The prior year's champion went on last 1973-1988, a total of 16 Finals. It's been the way it is now ever since 1989 (19 Finals) and no one has undertaken a concerted effort to change it.
Not true. Garfield went on last in 1988 because they drew the 12th spot - not because they were defending champions. That's the key.
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Yep, 90 Star put everyone on notice with the hornline that year.
Everyone should have taken notice in 1989. I knew at 1989 finals that Star would be challenging the upper most corps the next season. IMO, they should have placed 4th in 1989.
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Weren't Cadets sitting in about 12th place or so at the mid-point of the season? So, to come up to 4th was pretty amazing. "Reliable Rondo" declared that had the season been 2 weeks longer, Garfield might have pulled out a win.
No, I believe they only lost to BD, SCV, Spirit, Cavies, Star and Madison that season. I'm not sure if Suncoast ever topped them, but maybe they did. At their lowest point in the season they would have perhaps placed 8th. Although 27th Lancers, the eventually 13th place corps, nipped at their heals, Garfield was never even remotely close to 12th place.
I remember hearing stories in Jr. Scouts from people who had seen Garfield - stories of how terrible they were, and how they were booed some where. Personally, I loved the show and thought it absolutely deserved 4th place (by a wider margin than it did).
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History (i.e., CI) proves that to be false, many times over. Most glaring example is PR 1993. They had the best show, that night, hands down. Others have posted at length about other years. I'll let them add on.
I think history proves me correct. Otherwise, we might not have won in 1988. PR might not have won in 1996. I know both Madison and PR had been top 3 members previously, but Madison jumped from 6th to 1st and PR from 5th to 1st. It happens, and those titles weren't awarded only because of previous placements.
I'm sorry, but I highly disagree with your 1993 assessment. PR was hands down my favorite show that year, but they were certainly not on the level of Star or Cadets on finals night.
I can't believe you all have so little faith in the judging community. Do you really think the judges simply won't reward a rightful winner because of previous years placements?
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If I understand CI as it is presented, then yes it could happen. However, for this to happen CC of Bloo would have to be FAR beyond the execution level of even the winning corps to break into the top 3, because CI states that you have to finish in the top 3 before winning a championship.
Am I right Bruckner?
I disagree. If any corps is the best on finals night they should (and will) win. Regardless of prior placements.
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Okay I have read the CI theory previously posted, and I can see the logic behind it. My question for you about your prediction for this year is: doesn't CI take into account that a Corps (or two) with growing momentum can't/won't break into the top 3? Or is the top 3 now and forever more a constant. I'm asking b/c I am admittedly a CC honk, although I see the momentum, the push, of both bloo and CC towards the top. Even with CI, is it just impossible for a corps like CC to jump from 6th to 3rd? Just askin'
I think it would be possible for CC to jump to 3rd. I will be very surprised if they aren't better than last year. However, as we saw with the Bluecoats last year, you can put out the best corps you've ever had and finish 7th. That's a possibility for CC too. For the record - I don't see Madison beating Crown at any point this season. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.
The Mankato Mojito
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
So much for the west coast inflation theory.