roosevelt
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Posts posted by roosevelt
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Really? SCV in eighth? ok, dude.
Doesn't sound that far off to me. What makes you think they are going to be so much higher?
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The brass are NOT staged well at SCV. They are not set up to SOUND GOOD. Some, not all, but some of the problems that the brass have been having in their performance is because of the staging. Everything from environmental concerns with brass/percussion timing to folks who have the melody not being in the forefront to loud moments not being close enough to instruments scattered throughout with no rhyme or reason (3 lead trumpets right next to each other and then no lead trumpets around for yards etc.) to people with the most difficult parts having the largest step sizes. Trust me. Its a problem. There's more to drill writing than cool moves. The best brass lines out there have drill writers that set them up for success. I know that some drill writers don't prioritize this that much but those drill writers eventually fall by the wayside because the brass and percussion staff start to raise hell. Just saying that I'm calling it. Not this year but in the future the move is going to happen.
I agree with this 100%. I would say though that Gaines put the horns in plenty of tough spots to sounds great as well though.
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As long as they don't lose their originality and become like any other corps.
So, Richard Hinshaw must look like Michael Gaines in order for it to be The Cavaliers?
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I know that 'tis the season for rampant speculation, but is this thread any less non-substantiated rumor filled than other threads? I know the original intent of the OP was to confirm that Mr. Gaines has indeed left Cavaliers, but so much of this thread has crossed over into "dopey rumor-ville."
Sad: in four pages of sometimes nonsense, I've read very little about Mr. Hinshaw's visual design style, what he will bring to Cavaliers, how Cavalier's visual look might be wildly different (or not at all), etc. Instead we revert to goofy rumors.
I was just going to post the same thing. I think Gaines is great. Certainly one of the best ever, but I have felt like it has been visual first at The Cavaliers for quite some time now. I am eager to see what they look and sound like with a different drill writer. Richard Hinshaw is pretty different than Gaines, but the guys knows how to write drill and he stages well. This could end up being a great breath of fresh air for the green team.
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50 bucks says he's headed to vanguard lol
Not a chance.
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What about Mike McIntosh making a return to the caption head position, or maybe a move up to the top spot for someone like Sean Vega from the Devils camp.
So, Mike McIntosh would leave The Cavaliers, who just won drums to go to Crown? Yeah I don't think so.
As someone else posted earlier, it will end up being Hannum who takes over.
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Can I just say... the horns never sounded "bad." They were just not loud enough. And it took A LOT of GE out of the show. When it's your first year with a horn line, you're not always going for volume. You are trying to teach the right playing habits and building a foundation to work off of in years to come (however, I do think that the hornline has to remain effective no matter how much building you have to do). Unfortunately... SCV HAS to be competitive NOW or it's the end of the world. I personally thought the horns this years sounded great! When you could hear them.... and that is a problem. I think they could have given it another year.. let them build the horn line, but I don't see a problem with a change either. And I could see valid reasoning behind it.
Basically. New brass staff welcomed. Could have given other guys another chance, but I have no problem with them not being given a chance. I mean... the horn line was lacking some serious volume. That show would have been a lot more widely liked if it has been performed to par.
I hope you can understand my disconnected thoughts at this time of night. :)
This is the only things I really disagree with in your post. To my ears, they sounded rough pretty often. Not all the time, but often. They did get to a point later on in the year where they did not sound rough nearly as much, but it they never really got clean either. I have heard groups that were not very loud that played the precision game and it worked just fine. BUT the problem is, when you take the emotion out of the program (i.e. the effect) everything becomes about the ensemble which is all well and good until you have ensemble issues. If / when you do, you end up getting slaughtered by the judges and you get a lot less leeway from the fans.
Anyways, what is done is done and the new folks should do just fine.
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I thought it was just a few of the Bluecoats brass staff not the whole brass staff. something like 3 or 4 people.
You are correct. It is my understanding that Dave McKinnon and some others are staying on with the Bluecoats while George Wozniak and some others are headed to SCV.
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So, do you want to start up the thread about them?
Not really, no. However, if there was one going and people were saying that they were getting a bad rap I would certainly argue the contrary.
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Thank you. I think that's the point people are missing. With the demand of their show, (yes, probably over the kids' heads) there's no way they would pull in an Ott, that's just realistic. But with the demand they had both musically and visually, they did pull it off very well. They held their own, and finished 8th in brass.
The whole point of this thread still seems slightly ridiculous. It's no small secret Mr. Bud has some sort of axe to grind against the corps, so he's tried to make a big deal out of nothing. I've yet to see the 20 page thread on Madison's 14th place drums at Semi's.... Just saying.
Ok. Now we are talking. I agree, Madison's drumlin this year is definitely worth talking about as well. To me, they were VERY fortunate to finish where they did in drums. There were many drumlins that finished below them (even though they finished 14th) that should have beaten them. Lots of similarities there.
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Listen here buddy, it's fine (although confusing as well) that you hated SCV's hornline and their show this year. Everybody's got their own opinion. Critique their show as much as you want. But, for the love of God, don't EVER insult SCV by saying that they sounded bad during Send in the Clowns. You clearly have no respect for the Vanguard or the thousands of people involved with this organization. The Vanguard corps song has an extremely deep meaning to anyone involved with this corps, and even to some who aren't, that you obviously don't understand. I know this is DCP and I shouldn't be surprised by someone insulting a corps, but seriously. I know it's your opinion and all, but I just wanted to let you know that that statement you made is extremely disrespectful to Santa Clara Vanguard and everything that it stands for.
Hold on there for a second. To suggest that Send in the Clowns could never sound bad no matter what is a bit unrealistic. SCV is without a doubt my favorite corps, so don't misconstrue my statements for disdain for the organization one bit. Nothing could be further from the truth. As a person who has adored the organization (and their corps song) for decades, I was offended by what I heard.
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I think you've taken this too seriously. Really.
You are right. I do take it seriously. I have a lot of respect for The Vanguard. I do not blame the kids and I do think they made a great hire with the Bluecoats brass staff coming over. I did not agree with the hiring of the old Cavaliers brass staff when it was first announced and voiced those concerns on here last year and those concerns came into fruition worse than I could have imagined. So yes, I did / do take it seriously.
#1 These aren't paid professionals.
The members are not, but the staff certainly are. By drum corps standards, they were very well payed professionals. I do not blame the members. Not one bit. They played the way that they were taught / told to play. I would not fault them unless they blatantly had a disregard for their instructors or the music in front of them. I do not believe that was the case with them this year. Every time I saw them in the lot, the members seamed very focused and attentive. So, I am not blaming them one bit.
#2 Any of the brasslines in the top 12 sound better than most HS ensembles around and many college ensembles.
Yes. Absolutely.. but not all.
#3 Horrible isn't the word to describe how any of these corps sound. I've heard some horrible brass sounds in my life. These weren't it.
Just saying....
Ok. It's a matter of perspective I guess. If we are comparing 2011 SCV to all brass sounds on the planet, then yes, they were far from horrible. If we are comparing them to all drum corps this last season, that is debatable. If we are comparing them to past SCV lines, I think it is pretty clear and many other alumni would agree.
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What colorful adjectives might you use to describe these hornlines:
Pioneer
Jersey Surf
Troopers
Colts
Academy
Pacific Crest
Mandarins
You've made the cardinal mistake that many DCPers accuse judges of making! If SCV's hornline is your "awful," you now have the last place hornline at "Should never have been born."
There are penny of adjectives (both good and bad) to describe those groups you mentioned, but that is not what this topic is about. It is about SCV's horn line. It is my opinion that there were bad. Some disagree. That is ok. I will say that I had a discussion with Jeff Fiedler a years ago about staff consistency and he talked about how important it was, but he choose to pull the trigger on this staff after just one year...That should say something about how the organization felt about their productivity.
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Please enlighten me on your on your expertise to validate your opinion.
Bachelors in Music Education, Masters in performance, and a former DCI judge.
Not the most qualified out there by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly not the least either.
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It's just always so funny how many armchair judges come out on DCP after the season is over. Clearly the judges, (those people who's opinions matter) thought SCV had an 8th place hornline. Were they bad at the beginning? Yes, but did you see the show? Were they much, much better by the end of the season? YES, they really were. They improved a crazy amount over the course of the year. But they started out bad, so people had them pegged from the beginning, and refused to believe they improved. Someone mentioned Phantom's percussion, and that analogy is the same. Come out of the bad weak, and there's no way to improve in the eyes of the masses, no matter what the judges say on Finals night.
Yes. All of us on here are "arm-chair judges." All of us. I was at one point a DCI judge though, so I do have some insight into how things work, but inevitably I am still an arm-chair judge since I was not on the field night after night this year. I was on the road a lot this summer and had a chance to see them on a regular basis throughout the year, hence the reason I do most of my posting not during the summer (due to lack of internet on the road).
You on the other hand are a former member, and by the sounds of it, are still eligible to march SCV and plan to again in the future. So, you are going to be naturally biased as well. Let's keep that in mind too.
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See... Here you've gone and insulted not only SCV's hornline, but every hornline that score below them. They're all "awful", "baneful" monstrosities...
PUH LESE...
No. Sorry, I must have been unclear. What I meant was there were plenty of hornlines that finished below them that sounded better in my opinion.
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There aren't any finalist hornlines I'd remotely qualify as "awful." Seriously?
Yes. Seriously. They were that bad. They were bad up close and they were bad from the stands. I heard them play "Clowns" in the lot and was appalled. I goes my point is that they should not have even been a finalist level hornline. There were a number of groups that played better than them that did not make the Saturday night show.
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The other problem I have was when you were talking about is how they brass changes might have a good effect on the corps. I understand you used the percussion as an example for positive changes, but that doesn't explain how the brass will get better. Consistency seems a much more favorable way.
This exchange need not be a win/loose issue; not everything is a competition. What I was attempting to point out was that your generalized statement about judges having no intellect, combined with you not caring at all about their backgrounds, did not bode well in supporting your position. There are certainly some incompetent people in all professions, but what you did was call all judges incompetent without any actual proof whatsoever by pointing to any specific judges and specific criteria.
No. QUALITY is the better way. Who cares if you have consistency if it is not quality. The best thing is when you have consistency AND quality. By their on field product this year, I would argue that the brass staff at SCV was not of high enough quality. I understand that is was their first year and all, but the last brass staff made it better their first year. These guys made it markedly worse.
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This exchange need not be a win/loose issue; not everything is a competition. What I was attempting to point out was that your generalized statement about judges having no intellect, combined with you not caring at all about their backgrounds, did not bode well in supporting your position. There are certainly some incompetent people in all professions, but what you did was call all judges incompetent without any actual proof whatsoever by pointing to any specific judges and specific criteria.
Agreed. I have worked with lots of DCI judges. Some are fantastic teachers. Some are not. MOST of them are competent. I think it is far too easy to blame the judges when things aren't going your way as a member or and instructor (and to a certain extent, a fan), but I can tell you that many of them are quite good.
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11th in prelims, but 8th the other two nights. That would probably make prelims the anomoly, not the other nights.
Honestly, I thought the only night that was even remotely close was prelims. Paul Mcgarr was the only judge that had enough guts to put them were they belonged. Make no mistake about it, that horn line was awful. IMO they were lucky to finish in the top 12, and that is not based solely on volume. There were numerous groups that played more together and with better sounds than SCV did.
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Well if so, you apparently knew a heck of a lot more than the SCV Corps Director and the SCV BOD did that hired this SCV staff. I don't recall anyone on here complaining about these hires when they were made. But I have a short memory and attention span sometimes too, so its quite possible that a lot of people like you knew that Fielder and the BOD made bad hires at SCV at the time these people were hired and that ( quote) " it was pretty obvious that the guys they hired last year were not going to work " for SCV.
Question for SCV fans and alums:... At what point does the current SCV Corps Director and the current SCV Board of Directors take ownership of, and responsibility for, what has apparently been an unusual revolving door of hires, terminations, resignations and multiple staff turnovers at SCV the last several years ?
Sorry, I was unclear in my previous statement. What I should have said was "It was clear that the brass staff would not work AFTER seeing their work this past summer..." I was not saying that I knew this was going to happen all along. However, I do remember seeing on here some folks that were pretty reticent about their hire and how those guys would mix with the vanguard traditions and Paul Rennick's approach though.
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I honestly feel bad for SCV's (now former) brass staff...They did not get a chance to prove themselves. You can only go just so far with the talent level you are dealt(not implying anything here). This staff change most likely will turn out well for SCV in the end...Bloo's brass was indeed no joke and a force to recon with, but I really think staff longevity as clearly demonstrated by Blue Devils and The Cadets has proven to be a much better success formula IMO.
This is obviously true. However, BD & The Cadets don't just have great staff retention, they retain GREAT staff. There is a difference. Who cares if you have have retain staff that isn't very good or is't the right fit. I am not going to say that SCV's brass staff isn't very good (that is debatable, I have my opinions of course, but it is debatable), but I think it is pretty safe to say that their staff wasn't the right fit for the organization. It sucks that SCV has had so many changes in brass staff the last 7 years. Without a doubt it has had a very negative effect on the organization, but it was pretty obvious to me that the guys they had this last year were not going to work for that corps.
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I'm just curious then from whom such a authoritative command such as a mandate would originate?
Could have been lots of folks. BOD for one. It also could have been members of the design team. How do you think Key Poulan felt about his book being played the way it was? I know some folks on here don't think much of Key, but regardless of what you think of his arrangements I imagine he didn't like how they were being interpreted. Also, how do you think Paul Rennick felt about the drums being hung out to dry by the horn line in regards to ensemble balance? There are its lots of folks that could have forced Feidler's hand.
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Um, what? I'm sure thousands of people beg to differ about the hornline being "disastrous" from beginning to end this year. Posts like these are totally unnecessary and it really makes me sad to see that there are people involved in this activity that would say something like that about another corps.
I've got a lot more to say about posts like these, but I won't because I don't feel like wasting my time right now. Last thing I'm gunna say is this: listen to SCV's ballad from this year and tell me that that hornline was disastrous and doesn't represent this corps' amazing brass traditions. I don't think you'll be able to. Tons of people got crazy chills and teared up during SCV's show this year. Since that's the case, I'd say that this show totally represents SCV's great traditions.
There are PLENTY of people who would agree with Corbin's statement about SCV's brass staff this past year. I am certainly one of them. Many alumni and members of the felt the same way, hence the change. It is my understanding that Jeff Fiedler and Denise had no intention at all of changing brass staff again, but instead were mandated to do so. I do not know that for sure, but I could definitely see that being the case with how things were going for the horn line this year.
Did the ballad sound decent at points? Yes. Was it without error? No. Did the rest of the show sound anywhere close to the ballad in regards to quality of performance? No, absolutely not. I would, without hesitation say that this last year did not represent the great brass traditions of SCV's past. I wish that was not the case, but in my opinion it is true
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The OFFICIAL 2012 Prediction Thread
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Yeah, but it doesn't mean that those rookies are going to come back. The rookies that loved the brass staff that was let go, may not come back. The rookies that didn't like the old brass staff, may be jaded about the whole SCV organization and how things were handled and they too may not come back. With lots of staff turnover (which SCV has been the model of), means that you are probably not going to have good retention and therefore, will be young.
Listen, I am not saying SCV is going to finish 8th. Not at all actually. However, if they do I wouldn't be surprised because they, as a corps, have been trending downward. Sure, they hired some new (and in my opinion, better) staff. That does not mean that all is fixed and even if it does, it does not at all mean that all will be fixed right away. Saying that SCV is going to automatically be in the hunt for a medal and especially a championship NEXT year is putting unfair expectations on the members and the staff. Building that in this activity takes time. Look how long it took for Crown to build up to that level and even then they have only medaled once.
Having the reaction of "Really? SCV in eighth? ok, dude" makes it sound like 8th is so far out of the question that the poster who predicted them there is WAY off base. It also implies that SCV is bound for much much higher than 8th. I think that is both unrealistic and unfair fo 2012. Maybe they will be in the hunt in 2013. Certainly they should be in 2014 if the staff stays intact.
Could you imagine what it would be like if a championship corps fell all the way to 8th or ninth the next year? What if someone would have predicted that on here? They would have been ripped to shreds, right?... Didn't a recent championship drum corps fall all the way from 1st to 9th in one year? Oh yeah, they did, and a majority of this "dream team design" staff were the ones responsible for both the first, and the eighth place finish. So, those are just a few reasons why I say that they could finish in 8th and I wouldn't be surprised. I think they will finish a little higher (5th or 6th maybe?), but if they finish lower I would not be surprised.
Anyways, what I meant by this all was: Give it time.