roosevelt
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Posts posted by roosevelt
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The best move Cavies made to become more fan friendly in last few years was to reintroduce brass charts with FFF written into them.
Umm. The previous brass charts DID have FFF on them. The staff didn't know how to make groups play out or did not believe in the importance of it.
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They all came from UNT so they were all new to Rockford all the time.
I know a lot of kids who were in the line last year who were not from UNT. Rennick draws talent from everywhere.
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What, and show Rosemont some respect? C'mon man, this is Drum Corps Planet, after all.
The Cavaliers get plenty of respect on here.. or at least they did. They used to be everyone's favorite corps, but winning a lot will get you out of favor pretty quick. Hopefully they will keep designing shows like they did last year and people will begin to like them more and more again.
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Obviously Cavaliers are not a dark horse, but they are flying under the radar on here a bit. Everyone likes the idea of an underdog and everyone wants to see a new champion, so the obvious DCI darlings as of late are going to naturally be Bluecoats and Crown. HOWEVER, at the audition camps it is my understanding that BD and Cavaliers are having plenty of talented members returning and plenty more talented members auditioning. So, I imagine they will both have tons of talent in those corps (BD the same as last year since I don't know how you top the talent they had last year and Cavaliers MORE than last year since I understand that the corps was pretty young in some captions). I also imagine that coats and crown will have plenty of talent in their corps this next year too. So, it should be wide open and I am anxious to see how each of these corps design their shows. To me, that will be the deciding factor.
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Yeah, if this were the Kentucky Derby, I'd bet BD across the board with 5:1 odds to win 3:1 to place and 2:1 to show against the entire field over the past 20 years. I'd be doing really well. Better than anyone's 401K. If you took a BD/CAVIES perfecta, you'd also be doing pretty well. Boxing the perfecta of course.
Man, I have never thought about betting on drum corps like horse racing. I really want to do that now!
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Just a small question on how exactly corps are judged - Lets say hypothetically, that this year's top 12 corps played their programs completely and utterly perfectly. Every rifle was caught, every move was in time, every page of drill was perfect, and every note was played completely in tune and with the most balanced sound and with the perfect intonation... ect ect.
What would happen with placement/scores? Would the scores become based purely off of the program design/difficulty? I only say this because it is just ridiculous how good the top 5 (and to a lesser extent all the corps) are every year. Owning the DVD's and having watched every corps multiple times it just astounds me how clean and balanced their shows are.
Im not trying to start any "Corps X was soooo much better than Corps Y" here, but there has to be a point where corps become so good that the judging gets, well, funky. Looking at Bluecoats, Cavaliers, and Blue Devils, I honestly have no clue how the Devils took the colorguard caption, and if bluecoats took it, I wouldnt have a clue how they got it either because all three of them had just fantastic colorguards.
Any enlightenment?
It is all about achievement. It is not so much about perfection, but about what and how much is achieved. If a corps has an easy show and plays it perfectly and another corps has a difficult show and performs it very well (reasonably close to perfection) and the more difficult show will get more credit because more was achieved. Now, if a corps has a really difficult show and they can't do it then very little is achieved an the cleaner corps will win.
There is a saying in the judging community that "you can't argue with clean" and that is very true. BUT you have to take into account the what, the how, and the how much in the equation. Typically the blue devils don't have the most difficult shows, but they are miraculously clean. Conversely, you have groups like the cavaliers and the cadets who typically do have really really difficult shows, but have noticeable flaws. BD wins more often because they are usually much cleaner, but the years where the cadets or the cavaliers are pretty close to (or are on par with) the blue devils, they are pretty tough to beat.
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If more than one corps ruined the mass brass encore in 2008, that doesn't absolve any of them - blue or otherwise - from guilt in that sorry episode. It was bad business, and no ought to be trying to rationalize it.
As for rivalries, watch the spatulas when the cook crews face off. They can bring the heat!
HH
Agreed. I was just pointing out that there were other groups involved. All too often people automatically want to blame the blue devils when anything goes wrong when there are plenty of groups that have individuals that act a fool.
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IMHO, Cavaliers have not practiced, promoted any real rivalries since the 60's (several EAST corps, and the local competitive neighbors like Royal Airs, Norwood, Nisei). Rockford, Madison and Bluestars were always respected competitors and friends as has been SCV in a very playful sense too. We mostly operate(d) as the fun-loving fraternity house that would rather wink at school rules (outside the corps rules) especially if we could get the women or at least a jolly rancher food fight for giggles. Now, with that said, there is absolutely no love lost with Concord -- totally polar opposites in philosophy, attitude, approach, competition, etc. and this rivalry for many alums has become to a point of non-objectivity in anything and everything Blue Devil. My opinion and observation. And while I was specifically out-of-loop during STAR era, there was more disdain for their arrogance which is probably a similar attitude regarding relationship with CROWN recently.
I don't understand this. I have spent time around both corps and to me they are two of the most alike groups in DCI.
Both groups treat their members great and make that their number one priority.
Both groups sleep more and rehearse less and believe that is a big key to their success.
Both corps have a more laid back approach to rehearsing than anyone else in the activity.
I know that some people say that The Cavaliers don't care about competition, but these is complete and total BS. They care A LOT about competition, just like the blue devils.
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I was commenting on how quick you are to bash Blue Devils in an unrelated conversation. Not to mention that what you accuse them of was disproved by a video on YouTube of bk doing the holding over and whatnot. Enjoy your ignorance! :D
There were lots of groups that were holding over. BD, BK, and Bluecoats were for sure 3 of them. There was a lot of stupid behavior that night from a lot of corps. The current (very lame) retreat format that was adopted in 2009 is a reaction to that.
A lot of groups play these games. Honestly, in my 25 years of being around drum corps I can say that it happens everywhere. Now, that does not make it right at all. Quite frankly it is one of the things that really bothers me about the activity, but I am also not one to say that only these corps are the ones that play stupid games at retreat or at the gate and these other corps don't, because I know better.
When it all comes down to it, these corps are comprised of 150 young people (16-21) and like most large groups of young people there are going to be some individuals who insist on engaging in stupid behavior that reflects poorly on the rest of the group.
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I think "ringchasing" has hurt drum corps. The reason is that if someone wants to join BD or Cavies, and they don't make it, a LOT of the time they don't MARCH AT ALL. That doesn't help the other corps or the activity.........
Maybe, but I can tell you that most if not all of those corps at the top encourage kids who don't make it to march somewhere else to get experience. I honestly believe that kids who have never marched that audition for the top tier groups do so not because they want to win, but because they want to be in that specific corps. I do know what you are saying though about kids who only want to march in the one corps and will not even consider another place. It is kind of silly, but it is also their choice and they are free to make it.
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this is turning into another bash the cadets thread. stock dcp
No. It's really not.
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You already clarified what you meant by the Cadets not treating people as well. What you really meant is that the cadets offer somewhat of a more challenging experience in terms of work ethic. And I would say George offers "tough love" to produce the excellence he has.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with that as long as we're clear the being "treated well" can be different for every corps. And working harder, or getting sleep than another corps doesn't mean the Cadets don't get "treated well". It just means they get treated differently.
At the same time that doesn't mean that anyway is better than another. the Blue Devils work hard in their own way, probably not "as" hard as the Cadets but that doesn't say anything bad about the Cadets or Blue Devils.
I would say that the Blue Devils, Cavies, and Cadets have managed to create a consistent, valuable experience to their members. People like that kind of consistency and are comfortable with it. People KNOW that when they get into those 3 corps that they are going to have quality instruction, great support, and have a great summer, win lose or draw. There is a safety net with those three corps. You're going to be good even if you come in 5th (Cadets and Cavies especially).
IMO it has more to do with how consistent the corps is in terms of dynamic, staff, and overall experience that makes that corps, more popular/ better than others. IDK though, I have to give this more thought.
I agree with everything you said. Especially the last part.
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If there were drum corps out there consistently turning out bad experiences for members it would be common knowledge and they would fold in a few years. IMO more often than not people who complain of the way they were "treated" just couldn't hack it and would likely have the same feeling at another corps.
Agreed.
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Not buying this. The Cadets treat their members extremely well. They are expected to work hard, but they are treated well.
I think that depends on how you mean "treated." Do they care for the member's well-beings? Absolutely! Are they going to travel well and be well fed and nourished? Without a doubt. It's just that they will work the members so hard that it can be perceived that they are not treated AS WELL as the blue devils and the cavaliers who tend to sleep more and rest more than the cadets. I think this is also a reason why you see more injuries from them than some of the other corps out there (that and their approach to technique). By no means do I think the cadets aren't treated well, I am just saying that the I believe that the members of some other drum corps are treated better. In the end, I respect the cadets as much or more than anyone because of their work ethic. I believe that in George's mind, treating the members well is teaching them the value of hard work and not coddling them. So, it is just a matter of how you look at it.
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MOST if not all top tier drum corps treat their members well. The REASON they win so much is the BEST talent auditions there, consistently, year after year. More ringchasers at BD, Cadets, and Cavies than all the other corps combined........
Have you marched or worked with BD, Cadets or Cavies? Do you think the talent is the sole reason why they win? Do you think they would get the talent if they didn't treat people great? I think the reason that BD and Cavaliers get the best talent is because they treat people well. Combine that talent with their staff and design team and that is a recipe for success. The Cadets don't get the best talent... they also don't treat people as well IMO as some of the other corps. They do however work unbelievably hard and win a lot because of their work ethic.
You say "ringchaser" like it is a bad thing. I don't understand why people think it is bad to want to win. Often times i see the same people who refer to people as "ringchasers" in a negative light turn right around and complain about how their corps is not finishing / scoring higher. To me that makes no sense.
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Interesting, but irrelevant. The issue isn't being called a number (drum corps is known for inspiring bizarre nicknames and in this activity someone could be named dumbestassever and have it be a term of endearment) it's being treated like a number, which is quite different. Did said individual happen to speak to the quality of their experience over all?
I am pretty sure he was joking.
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Family's string members along for months before revealing that they won't have a spot without any warning whatsoever? It's about choices. If you want that ring bad enough, you almost have to make those undesirable choices. There are organizations who will NOT do this to members just for a cleaner show. Find those organizations. Again, the Bluestars are doing what they feel is right; that is their prerogative. And yes, that member could have refused an initial spot. I just find it...disheartening to hear about instances like this. And it's funny because it's not the CHAMPIONSHIP corps. It's the ones in the hunt. Don't hate the playa, hate the game.
I am sorry, but how many championship corps have you been in?
I been around quite a few drum corps the last 25 years (both championship and non championship, finalist and non-finalist corps) and in my experience the biggest difference between all of them is that they championship drum corps all treated their members BETTER than anyone else. THE REASON that the blue devils and the cavaliers win so much is because of how well they treat their members IMO.
Now with that being said, some of the corps that are the "big boys" may not be the most welcoming places for folks, but I would never say that the all of championship level corps care about winning first and the members second.
Finally, people that go to corps to have a great chance at winning shouldn't be looked down upon IMO. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be a champion and I think that everyone should go find the corps that offers them what they want. I had a student of mine that wanted to win and went to the troopers to get some experience so he could go on to another corps. He ended up loving it and stayed there until he aged out. I also had a student that went to a non-finalist corps and after a year wanted to be around people that were better and had a championship mindset, so he left and ended up getting a ring. There is nothing wrong with going to the corps that is going to give you what you want.
If don't care about competition and just want to be in a family atmosphere than there are corps out there (kind of), and if you want to go to a corps that is going to go out there with a competitive mindset, than there are corps out there for that too.
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Recketscience, you are not being dishonest at all. A disappointing experience is disappointing for a reason, and if you didn't get what you wanted, despite your good placement at the audition, you are never in the wrong for finding a better experience elsewhere. I marched with a friend in 2009 and 2010 that had multiple contract offers from corps such as Phantom Regiment, Cavaliers, Crown, Blue Stars, Madison, and Bluecoats, but decided to march at a place he loved, and loved him back.
Do what makes you happy, not what makes other people happy.
Sounds a little fishy. I am not sure how someone would have the chance to audition for all of those corps in one season not to mention some of those corps do not do contracts.
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I auditioned at a top eight (G8 I guess. Still not sure what that all means) corps the weekend before Thanksgiving. I was asked to return and was given the highest auditions score available from a 3 tiered system, but not guaranteed a spot. Though I have been in awe of this corps for three years and have waited until my freshman year in college to audition, I was extremely disappointed in the overall experience. I have friends who auditioned at the same corps last year and had similar experiences. Not everyone in my group of friends last year and this year have the same talents levels, but I think they all deserve to have a great experience. Some were told immediately after playing that they could go home, but with no refund. Go home? We drove seven hours. All of us thought we could meet and interact with vets, but that seemed taboo. Though I got to play exercises and ensemble skill building stuff, I did not find there to be any real sense of education or explanation for it all that would add to my current knowledge of brass playing. The staff seemed to not smile much or want to get to know anything about you. I tried to walk up to vets and staff to simply say Hi and show I wasn't shy or scared, but felt very put-off. There were no hype moments about the corps, the process, the activity. Though I have dismissed past comments and DCP posts about people having a similar experience as being about them not making a corps and looking for negatives, I see that it can be true.
I cannot imagine for one second being in that environment or any like it all season. I have decided to audition at a corps that is only a three drive for us. This corps used to be a finalist, but is not currently. They seem to be moving up and there seems to be a lot of good changes going on. I have friends from college that march there that seem to absolutely love it. They guarantee that my experience will be 180 degrees different than the one I had two weeks ago. I want to leave drum corps a better player and performer. I want to have fun. I want to meet great people my age and staff members that will spend at least a little time getting to know me. I want to learn how to do all of this so I can be a better band director when I graduate college. Making finals or being on a special tour with the top corps seems cool, but not if the rest of the stuff is high pressure win or nothing, or is in an atmosphere that puts the things that are important to me way down on the priority list. The deal with leaving right after you play for no refund unfortunately seemed like taking money and not caring what you get for your dollar. Someone on the thread about composers who wont let their music be used mentioned that drum corps was a music education activity. That seemed to totally not be the case where I auditioned two weeks ago. My first days in high school band and college were great. I guess I just expected an even better more professional experience than those.
So my questions are, do I give corps A another chance in two weeks regardless of my experience this weekend? Am I being dishonest by auditioning at a new corps, making them think they are my first choice? Any other advice anyone have?
thanks a bunch
I would go back there for another camp AND audition for the second corps. Audition camps are tricky for staff. They have to listen to tone of people (often times more people than really have time for) and they need to try and teach some technique and make the camp educational too. The elite corps wont have any of the show written yet, so there is really nothing to do but audition people and work on technique. Finally, a lot of the staff will be stand-offish at those top tiered places because there are too many people to keep straight and they don't want to get too close to folks yet since over half of the folks there will not be at the next camp. Anyways, go to both corps and audition. It is your money and both of those corps will understand. My bet is your experience will be a little different the next camp.. if it not you know what to do.
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You are right!
They sound freakin great!
Blue Devils (who I usually don't care for) sound unbelievable.
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Just got home and saw that mine had arrived too.... I ordered mine this week and had it priority shipped.
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Ok, I'm going to post this one time. For the record, in addition to my brass staff duties at Teal Sound, I am also one of the sound engineers.
With regard to number 1: Communication by telephone, telegraph, smoke signals, jungle drums, signal flares, Star Trek communicators and mental telepathy are perfectly legal, from anywhere in the world (or space) to the corps staffer at the sound board. It was legal before 2010, but was specifically codified within the rules for the 2010 season. While iPad controls are not expressly mentioned, they are not codified as illegal either, hence the communication problem the Bluecoats had in Indy.
Number 2: DCI already provides a specific location set aside for sound engineers to sit/stand while in communication with the staffer at the board. They do so at ALL DCI REGIONALS and Indy. Period, dot, all stop. For example, in Allentown the camera platform just below the box on Side 1 was specifically reserver for corps video and sound engineers. In Atlanta the seat was in the Luxury Box on the 50.
At Lucas Oil Stadium, the sound engineer's seat was located on the camera platform in Section 440. They had a chair right on the 50 reserved with a really nice sign that said "Corps Sound Engineer" on it. For confirmation, you can ask Michael Boo, who's computer set up was on adjacent platform. What was really a nice touch was the signs DCI had posted at the elevator in the garage area telling us that "The sound engineer's seat is in Section 440". The platform was about 10 feet below the judges area, and was an excellent place to direct the mix of the show.
If you want to know where the other officially provided sound engineers eats were at other regionals, I'd be happy to tell you.
But you know, never let the truth get in the way of a good rant.
So, after totally talking down to me we have Donny Allen (brass caption of pioneer last year) and Jim Wonderlick (from some small obscure corps out in california) come out and say differently.
So I am going to go ahead and re-post this:
Hey John,I think that several are pointing out that the remote operation of the mix is illegal. The 2010 DCI Contest Rules, Under 4.3.1 (4th paragraph), state:
"The board cannot be adjusted via remote control. It must be adjusted with the use of a corps member or a member of the competing’ corps team. The “sound person” may or may not, speak to a corps representative in the stadium, in the stands, and via phone or wireless device."
So it is clearly stated, NO remote operation of mix. That would include via iPad, iPhone, etc. That would be "remote control" of the mix, as shown in the Yamaha video. Cell phones can be used to communicate "to a corps representative". Please, don't try to argue that your mixer is now considered a corps representative, and that you speaking to him/her/it ;o)
The only memo sent out (2009) was that staff members need to TEXT, not talk, since it was a nuisance for audience members. " I SAID, TURN THE DJEMBE DOWN AAAAH!!!"...
We can get into a philosophical argument about IF remote operation should be legal, but that's not what a few (Roosevelt, etc) are getting at in this thread.
Now we can see why people got all hot and bothered by the bluecoats last year because they were clearly cheating and got caught doing it. Should we have the ability to remote mix? Absolutely. BUT there were numerous times last year when people on here and at shows (including judges tapes) talked about the electronics being out of balance while lots of folks mentioned how the bluecoats seemed to have it much more dialed in than everyone else.... now we can see why that was the case and I think it is clear that they did gain a competitive advantage from doing so.
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You should probably contact Tony DiCarlo and let him know the rules since he had no problem with it and didn't penalize anyone all week. Hopefully DCI clarifies it going forward.
Thanks, but I try to avoid Tony at all costs....:/
I do hope they clarify things though and I hope that they set a side a place where people can mix from up top while not on a cell phone or walkie talkie
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Actually, no. I know several percussion/brass caption heads that used a cell phone to communicate down to the sound board all season including finals week. I watched sound technicians standing right next to TonyDiCarlo on their cell phone during Quarterfinals during their entire performance with no problem at all. This happened for four corps in a row when I was in stadium and there was no issue.
I think you got some wrong information.
Hmm. Well, I have worked with a couple of drum corps the last few years and I heard the same thing at each place from different folks. It sounds like some people are not being consistent with their information from corps to corps.
Most likely to win first/beat Blue Devils?
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Or you could create your own new path and leave everyone else in the dust. That is what the cadets did in the 80's, the blue devils in the mid to late 90's, the cavaliers in early 2000's, and the Blue Devils again did as of late. Copying what is working might get you a title or two, but making your own formula for success will make you a dynasty.