ajwdad
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Posts posted by ajwdad
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I stayed off the forums this year exactly due to threads like this one. But, it continues to amaze me that haters gotta hate, and no matter what, someone will complain that BD's drill is too easy, not has hard as the others etc... But, it is pretty encouraging to see that there is so much support for BD this year.
IMO, the show is very very good, and performed at levels not seen in a long time. Do it up, Deviils!
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I am not defending the booing, or defending their lack of class; I am defending their right to boo and their right to have no class. People here in the United States in general can show lack of class on just about everything. Try booing Ahmadinejad in Iran, especially if you are a woman, and see what happens. Booing is called exercising "freedom" whether you think it sad or not.
Agree with you. But it is still poor behavior. Not illegal behavior.
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Oregon has a fantastic show there is no doubt about it. Never count out BDB, and I know SCVC is bringing it on. This is going to be epic. I have to cheer on SCVC because my daughter is on the horn line, and the tubas like to sing call me maybe.
have to agree here. But, OC SCVC and then BDB seems to be the direction. I know neither BDB or SCVC was happy the other day with their performances, but I wonder if BDB can get clean in time. SCVC will be very clean, they always are. And OC has been coming on strong for a few years...
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Crown challenges their performers more than BD challenges theirs and this is in all aspects of what is challenging (not just simultaneous demand).
I'm not talking about the cleverness of BDs design.
Geez, Charlie.. Can you lighten up a bit? You managed to take great thread and then turn to your normal BD is no good rant....
I doubt seriously that you can speak for BD corp members vs Crown members as you likely did not march for both. As for the show, the beginning of the Crown show looks very difficult, but then it kind of eases up a lot. This is a lot more like any other performing art. If you cannot do it clean or well, you don't win.
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Booing shows a lack of class. And I am really disgusted with the defense of booing as "everyone does it or every sport has it." Geez, as a parent, would I ever let my kid get away with that BS? Can't we be better in at least 1 way?
I don't boo. But, "fans" can do whatever they like, including showing their complete lack of class by booing. Sad.
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Am I qualified to talk about anything regarding drum corps, even after being intimately involved with the activity since the fall of 1974? Many would say "yes." Others, including myself, would say "no."
As for commenting on anything visual, I've written for WGI since about 1980, so please don't spill the beans to them about me being unqualified to talk about anything visual because I've got a couple music degrees (from the back of matchbook covers) and spend two weeks every early June in China with my music. Several years ago, to better familiarize myself with what visual judges look at, I even went through color guard judging workshops and field trialed guard contests with the Central States Judges Association. I didn't go on to judge...that wasn't the purpose; however, I did feel it gave me more perspective to write about the guard activity.
Hi Michael,
Please keep up your writing. Perhaps DCI could use more bloggers, but they would be hard pressed to find a better one.
In appreciation,
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I don't think you are being honest. You know deep down fans are booing because Crown did not win and BD did. Many people feel like it is finally Crown's year and they cannot fathom the probability that Crown will come in second, (if not 3rd as here come the Cadets) Also, as far as last night is concerned it was basically a home show for Crown as compared to BD which is almost always the case this time of year. BD has only gotten to have home shows in their part of the country at this time of year once in almost 40 years.
Agree with the last part, but not so sure about the 1st. BTW, Cadet or Phantom could catch Crown or BD. Who knows why people boo, but BD expects to get booed whenever they win outside of Ca.
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See, this is where you lose me. Just because someone doesn't like a show doesn't mean they "hate" it, or the corps performing it. BD will do what BD does, CC will do what they do, as will every corps out there. It doesn't mean we have to love them all, or that we "hate" any of them.
I've not enjoyed a BD show in a while, and that's too bad. Outstanding performers, but it's the design of their shows that loses me. Do I "hate" them? Of course not. I'm waiting for sometime in the future when I can say, "Wow! I like this show from BD!" Hopefully, I won't have to wait too long.
Garry in Vegas
Hi Garry, this is a quote just after yours. Makes my point about focusing hatred on BD. Gets old reading this crap, but at least the judges see things in a more objective light.
"When you have a tremendously difficult program accompanied by great performance, then it's not hard to see why people would think Crown should win. If you aren't a BD homer and look at the visual for more than 2 minutes, you realize that BD simply doesn't measure up. You can see that they're incredibly dirty and "nonsense" forms are "justified" by the dada concept. The fact is, it's dirty as hell and they're getting away with it. Furthermore, they have no effect but somehow they are capturing the general effect captions. Maybe that's why they're getting golf-clapped and boos every time scores are announced. There's no doubt about thier performance. These guys are performing at a level unmatched this year. Like holy crap... BD is great on the individual level. But why they're winning GE, I'll never know. Why they're winning Visual, I'll never know. "
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On a serious note . . . It absolute BULL #### that we get to see BD, SCV, Blue Knights, Troop, and whomever ventures out here from the East of the Rockies for the FIRST TWO or THREE shows (in Nor Cal). Why does Charolette, NC deserve shows 3/4 of the way through tour with polished shows and scores in the 90's, not 70's.
Don't even get me started on the fact that they want us to pay Finals type pricing because the show is in Stanford Stadium - BFD! Some of the Best performances ever in California were in Spartan Stadium (San Jose State).
I've said this before, and save your flame throwers because I know what you're going to say if you live west of the Rockies, but virtually every sport has a home field advantage (for best records). In my opinion, the DCI Finals should be held in the state of the previous years DCI Champion. This year it would be in where ever the Cadets are calling home now (they will alway be Garfield to me).
Ya'll think there'd be any booing if Saturdays show was in the Rose Bowl (same scores, same placements)???
+1 You are 100% right about the shows, home field advantage etc... And the top 3 open class corps are all west coast. And I like your idea about finals. But, that would require some work (oh no, we cannot have DCI actually doing work can we?) As for all of the hand wringing that is going on out there, save the logistical whining for later. There are far more demanding venues than DCI that can accommodate changing every championship. I think one is currently going on in London. DCI needs to step it up.
This is my last travel to Indy. 4 times is enough for a lifetime.
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You seen their books? Have you seen how much money they make in bingo? It pretty much has financed SCV's winter programs, and them getting a new truck. You can't tell me that those bingo programs aren't raising them money. Yes, they do other programs (System Blue, Community Dance Project, Diablo Wind Symphony) but it is a HUGE contributor, that other corps don't have available to them. Most states do not allow gambling in them, so there is no way for the corps to a bingo program to fundraise
They don't make nearly as much as you indicate. BD does charitable gambling, which is allowed in every state except for Arkansas, Tennessee, Hawaii, and Utah. Definitely, there are laws to follow and hoops to jump through, but it can be done.
The real reason that there is not major west coast shows is that marketing within DCI sucks. Basically, the west coast fan base is not among those that DCI cares about. Period. All of the rest is justification and misdirection/misinformation.
The answer is to grow the fan base... And most international sporting organizations cannot do that by locking in set venues for decades at at time. But, DCI simply is either incompetent in marketing or does not care.
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Something I'll never approve of. Now if they were saying mike boo. they would sound happy of course.
:thumbup: Agree 100%..
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I still believe this is the show to beat. The show has excitement and a lot of difficulty and some great effects, and is a crowd favorite. There is just a lot of wow factor imo that I believe come finals, will bump their GE scores and make them a true contender. It's funny how two threads have emerged almost simultaneously, one questioning BD's scores and show and the other questioning the hype surrounding Crown.
I don't question BD scores at all. There are lots of threads that focus hatred on BD, and it is kind of nice to be on one that doesn't.
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Yeah it's another negative BD thread.
Maybe they should change how they design their shows so they don't get booed at score announcements.....
And we don't have to deal with these threads anymore.
These thread will keep coming as long as the continue on this design trend. They aren't going to change the game with it.
I just don't know why they wouldn't want to be a fan favorite and win! They used to be....
Won't work. The negativity will stop when BD stops winning.
That is all that some people really want. Of course, different show design, different brass, different percussion, and different color guard would work. They could fire their entire staff and replace it with a staff from Phantom, or at maybe get Crown's brass staff to come over in its entirety. Of course, no corp would ever take the staff from a different corp... that would be unethical. I am sure that DCI would not allow that. I know, let's just turn them into a perennial 5 place corp and then after about a decade, we can see the negative threads stop. Haters got to hate.
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I think that BD has to watch out for Phantom, SCVs drumline, and Crowns Brass. My guess is that Phantom was flat the other night. But, clearly, BD is not resting on their laurels.
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Have to agree. The first few minutes are amazing. But the Perc is not up there, and the rest of the show is kind of flat to me. But, as Crown cleans, the show could really contend. My large concern with Crown this year is that their percussion may not be good enough for them to win. Having said that, stranger things have happened.
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Heard here again the line that the Blue Devils are playing to the sheets and that's all that matters. Fans don't matter? The audience in the stands doesn't matter? I was at the Atlanta show and I can tell you from my 50 yard line mezzanine vantage point, looking both ways, that for the vast majority of the Blue Devils show you could have heard crickets. The audience was sitting on their hands. There was a several minute stretch during the Blue Devils show in which the audience had less reaction than they did for Pioneer. At the end of the show, I saw very few people stand, and most of them were wearing Blue Devils gear. So much for that audience connection DCI was touting.
Furthermore, the Blue Devils show to me looks very much like a cheat. While random scatter drill and randomized performances might look really cool at times, they can't be judged for execution. Watch the show closely to see how many times they play and move fast at the same time. Extremely rare. I see a few moments in the drill here and there where they are flying, but in every one of those moments, the horns are down. Fast horn runs are always played standing still. Are they not capable of playing and moving fast at the same time? Strange, I know of about 5-6 other corps around them that can. The Blue Devils of late have become a corps that will push the envelope of challenge only so far, holding just back from the others around them, hide as many errors as they can, and win by executing a show that is deceptively easy as compared to the challenges the other corps place on themselves year after year.
The shame in all of this is that the fans WANT to like them. I hear it from the comments all the time. They want the Blue Devils that knew how to entertain the crowd and win at the same time. They want the Blue Devils that challenged themselves and set the bar for excellence at the same time. I have no doubt with the talent pool they have to draw from every year that they are imminently capable. It is very obvious that the staff doesn't care. The ones I feel most sorry for are the members who must go out every night and perform an obviously controversial and unpopular show. What kind of victory is it going to be for them if they are crowned the winners at Indianapolis, only to be greated by a chorus of booes from the crowd like we had in Atlanta tonight? It's time the staff woke up and started giving the kids shows they can take pride in.
Another hate rant. Got news for you. BD is very well received out west, but then again, haters got to hate. Now, you call them cheaters as well. All your BS about caring for the kids falls on deaf ears. Say something nice about the kids and then you can rip their performance and show and corp to pieces. Very sad.
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Alright I'm now to the point of being so fed up that I'm actually going to publicly rant because I KNOW that judges come snooping on here. Maybe they can take a hint. I'll probably get a lot of negative reputation for this but quite frankly I rather voice my own opinion. If you don't agree then that's fine but you're probably in the minority.
Discuss
Not much to discuss. Haters got to hate.
I have an idea for you. Don't watch them anymore. Just watch Crown or whichever corp you prefer.
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After the fun drive home (and reading this thread) I have a few show comments to make.
1) The TOC format without encores from each corps runs much smoother, and there was very little downtime between corps.
2) There were a lot of people in those stands, and only about 20-30% were above the age of 30. These shows are apparently hot with the kiddies (a lot of high school bands came as groups as well).
3) All corps were entertaining, and I'm glad that there was no mass exodus from the stands during corps that people might not have liked the most.
4) Blue Devils and Crown could have gone either way. I think the judges called it right from what I saw tonight. However, I don't know what group of numbskulls decided it would be fun to boo Blue Devils during the scores, but that is simply too rude. Those kids deserve nothing but applause. If you don't like it, golf clap, but don't boo a bunch of kids who are working their tails off.
5) I had SCV and Cadets flipped in scores, but the judges saw it differently. I also would have put Phantom above 90. That ending is hot.
6) Every bit of what I saw gives me hope for the progression of drum corps into this decade. There are weird shows like Blue Devils (abstract, arty, love it or hate it), shows that appeal to the younger crowds like The Cavaliers, and there are shows that are just straight up old school drum corps like Crown (surprising lack of body movements from what I saw; mostly just marching and playing). But, there is something for everyone to enjoy.
7) I like BAC's shirts this year.
Great post!
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You made a comment about my iPhones autocorrect spelling.... Snooty.
And you don't think that saying BD is fine wine and if you don't like it you simply don't appreciate finer things like high art doesn't sound snobby? It sounded very very snobby. Now your comment admiring their talent and skill doesn't sound that way. Learn the difference.
Careful complaining about your iPhone's spelling... No one is here to defend Apple.
"learn the difference" sounds a bit snobby. BTW, anyone can dislike BD's show and still "get it." In fact, you can dislike the corp and "get it." Since they are the most winning corp in DCI history, there are bound to be a ton of people hoping, wishing, rooting, and praying for a loss. It is only human nature. And it is human nature for BD fans to react in kind. BD expects hostile crowds in a lot of venues. Even C-Corp expects it at times. Unfortunately, some fans just have to express their hostility...
Personally, there are several corps that I don't like because I don't like seeing their shows a second time. Nothing changes, and they are extremely predictable. Since I favor high performance, coupled with some unpredictability, I like BD, and then Phantom/Cadet. Crown can be very entertaining, but year in and year out, the three that I like the best are BD, Phantom and Cadet.
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And how much bang for the buck is there in a small marketing company securing various sponsorships for that proverbial Punkin Chunkin? Moreover, Drum Corps produces musicians who actually end up performing with groups like 311, Blue Man, or drum for Paul Simon, or play trumpet in the David Letterman band, etc ... Those certainly "are" markets advertisers want, and that is something which is marketable for DCI if they present it in the right way (especially if they can secure the endorsements from those DCI turn pro performers). Imagine DCI being plugged at a 311 concert, a Rascal Flatts concert, or actually advertised during the Letterman show, etc... partially underwritten by the pros in those organizations who cut their teeth in drum corps. Come on people, the only way DCI is going to stay financially solvent is if we not only think outside the box, but take a box cutter to that box.
I agree with your last statement, but not a lot of the rest of the post. Marketing people of products targeted at general appeal look for mass audiences with mass appeal. IE Pepsi at the Superbowl. We track things like impressions per dollar spent, and a lot of us track the actual ROI of a marketing or outreach campaign.
DCI has a pretty limited audience and unfortunately makes decisions that keep it that way. Imagine if a sport had only 1 race a year to determine a champion, and held it in the same location every year. Before you mention horse racing or the indy 500, remember that there are many champions crowned every year in racing and in horse racing. Also imagine if that sport were not very well known.... In the early days of professional sports, games were held just about in any venue that could hold them. And professional sports are very very good on the opening day, and may be better during the season than on the actual final contest. DCI is more like the olympics, which are held in Greece every year with limited TV and theater coverage.
Think about which companies would want to advertise to DCI or potential DCI fans. The music instrument companies already support DCI either directly or indirectly. I doubt that the companies interested in DCI fans as a group of their own are not already reaching them in some way. It is child's play for any decent marketing person to figure out how to reach the DCI fan.
Nascar has a HUGE following, and so, in general attracts a ton of advertisement. Most Nascar fans do not race, are retired racers and are not the parents of racers or retire racers. DCI misses on a lot of those counts. There is a lack of universal appeal, in spite of advertising on local theaters, being on PBS etc...
In the past, several of us on this forum had suggested a ton of ideas to grow the appeal of DCI as measured by growing the fan base. In my opinion, the idea of holding the only championship in Indy for an extended period of time has an incredible downside. DCIs answer is the Fan Network and the theater viewings, a reasonable start but hardly a decent replacement.
I doubt that DCI needs to spend a ton of money on a marketing study. My firm does marketing research for a lot of large and smaller companies with very reasonable rates. We are a boutique company, but in our target markets, we are pretty successful. More importantly, I know several marketing people on this forum that would volunteer time to help DCI, including myself, and that would be a great start.
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I usually don't complain about scores, and give judges the benefit of the doubt.
But what on earth show was the visual proficiency judge watching????!!!!
to paraphrase Sean Connery in the movie "The Rock" winners go home and "celebrate"; losers complain about the judging.
To each his own, but so far the judging has been pretty consistently in favor of BD.
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Let's all agree that Crown MUST win in August without question. Yay Crown!
Because really you may want BD to win but you'll still be okay if Crown took their first gold!
Not going to get my vote here. Not only do I disagree, but I am not sure that would even be a good thing for anyone but a Crown fan. Actually, I hope that the best Corp wins. Yay BD!
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I am very pro OC; I support them; I watch them when I can. The following explanation is rather correct; might be off slightly, but the reasoning for these 3 items is correct:
1) Since CA has been traditionally isolated it has allowed for OC corps to flourish because they can perform at many west coast shows along side BD, and SCV. However, just watch... the more midwest and eastern WC corps travel out west the less room there will be at these shows to plug in OC corps. Only x number of corps can perform on a Tuesday night so Regiment, Bluecoats, Cadets, etc... going out west will eventually bump out OC corps for those show slots.
Hi Stu, I agree with a lot of your points, but I don't see more midwest and eastern corps coming to CA. They are very well received out here, as opposed to BD going to the east, but still most choose not to come. Great to see PR this year, and Cadet last. But, I think that we would just have more corps and longer shows. In general, travel is too expensive and there are a ton of other venues which make a west coast swing unnecessary.
BTW, I prefer OC to world in general, with few exceptions. There is more variety and the competition is usually better, especially this year.
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Seems like they decided not to go to Indy. Talked to some of the members in SoCal. Great group, and wish them the best.
This is the worst weekend of Drum Corps...
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
well spoken!! +1