Ray Kimber

Many posts ago someone invited me to attend an event in Texas in July. I replied my acceptance of the offer, but I haven't noticed any email or other contact from the person who posted the invitation. If possible could that person contact me? ray@kimber.com with kind regards, Ray

This article came across my news feed this morning. The thought occurred to me that any DCI Show has a mixture of Intellectual Property possibilities. IIRC there was a corps who marched in silence for a portion of their program https://www.prosoundweb.com/intellectual-property-or-not-who-really-owns-your-console-show-file/

Hi Keith, This OP has read each reply with interest. While I don't intend to return to the Ogden Event I have considered how to selectively participate to bring some of my (perhaps wrong) understanding of how to add reinforcement to a sound. I operate on the premise that you can't reinforce a sound unless you can record the sound. What I mean is to accomplish the 2 tasks separately. First learn how to record a certain sound. Second premise is you can't reinforce a sound unless you can playback the recorded sound. I think it is a ratcheted learning experience..., if you get better at recording you get better at playback, you get better at recording and so on. You need to separably record each thing you desire to reinforce. Reinforcement is not the same as record/playback, but lessons learned in record/playback are useful for reinforcement. I think that "recorded music is like canned sushi", in fact I made lapel buttons with that quote of mine for a 2000 convention. You can't do it!, really it can't be done. But there is a huge difference between pet food and Albacore. With the IsoMike experiments I simply wanted to get closer to Albacore. Next, work out how to reinforce a single sound before moving to reinforcing more than a single sound.

I accept. I could offer to do the same short demonstration that I presented years ago at USITT (United States Institute of Technical Theater) to visually show how 2 (or more) microphones "hearing" the same acoustic event and then electrically mixed together will have a permanently embedded steady state "flange" distortion. Using a small speaker on a stand playing a sine wave towards 2 microphones spaced about 4' apart on stands positioned in a row in such a way that a small adjustment of the mixer gain allows the output to be nulled. The mixer output is fed to a oscilloscope that has a projector output. I used this demo to verify that the 10 foot/10 dB "rule of thumb" actually was true. hahaha, on a sine wave. I then used the output of a Korg tuner at the same frequency to completely and obviously discredit that old rule of thumb. Many folks told me that in 15 minutes I answered some very vexing problems in their venues. I could also prepare a few pages of historic documentation, including a few pages authored by Dr. John Gray McKendrick in 1897 (I have a couple of the first editions) As a side note I have a private library of approx 20,000 volumes focused on acoustics and audio. If a book has ever been written, on the subject I likely have it. I am not opposed to amplification per se, but I do have a bad attitude if the result is an insult to the original. I would also be pleased to consult with the presenters to see if we could offer some specialized high resolution percussion files for their use and amusement. Kind regards, Ray my email is ray@kimber.com

Some marching history from Utah. Bruce Bastian was the director of BYU marching band for a while, IIRC the band was struggling. Bruce might have been the/a father of software to plot marching patterns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Bastian

Hello, As a noob I am missing some pieces to this puzzle. Could someone kindly tell me who (or what) is "pope Dan"? And I would like to read the Bluecoats Pandora's Box open letter. Kind regards, Ray

I appreciate you posting this aspect of mallet players. I might be wrong, but my understanding was, in regards to loudness, there were 2 problems with such instruments. First the player had to resort to a playing technique that was not good for the player. Second the instrument suffered. I had some long brainstorming sessions with various persons.and formulated a game-plan. Determine how loud a single instrument could be played with proper player technique and still respect the limitations of the instrument. Record and measure in a space with minimal reverberation, at a reasonable distance, say 20 feet. Next play the same instrument without regard to mallets, player, or instrument as loud as possible - measure and record that result. If I am considering the unstated goal, the desire would seem to be to have that marimba even louder than could ever be played at maximum. If I wanted to make just one marimba louder using sound reinforcement I would choose minimal microphone technique. If many (more than one) microphones are used on the same instrument there is a devil's choice to be made. If a microphone is far enough away to not hear unwanted "mechanical" noises of the instrument, then the microphone is far enough that another similarly positioned microphone will also "hear" the same acoustic. When the signals of those microphones are mixed there will exist a non-musical steady state "flange effect", think of singing too close to a wall. Microphones too close sound bad, microphones too far sound bad. This is just ONE marimba, if other instruments and microphones are used the results is acoustic mush, and the louder it is the more shrill and confused it gets. When deciding close-up microphone locations for an instrument, put your ear in that location. I believe that only contact microphones would work, or an electronic marimba. It is delusional to imagine that a "normal" microphone would pickup ONLY the target instrument. Just record that microphone in isolation to understand. Assuming we have the microphone/pic-up decided (we don't but we are moving on), there is next the devils choice of speaker placement. The speaker (just one!) needs to be more distant from the listener than the instrument, i.e. the speaker needs to be behind the instrument otherwise the sound will have the wrong precedence of arrival and/or displaced in space.. A speaker could be placed just in front of the instrument and a few milliseconds of delay applied. When a marimba is in the center of a stage, the sound reinforcement output should be associated with THAT location. A small(ish) battery powered speaker might do the trick quite nicely. It could be that a solution would be compact, portable, durable, and sonically believable. but not possible in the environment of rewarding corps with scores for locker room swinging of falsies.

I have attentively read every reply to my original post. I have learned some aspects that were unknown to me, I appreciate the opportunity to learn and hear from so many. From time to time I started typing a bit more of the story, it ended up being quite lengthy. I attempted to post the reply but was getting some error messages that I guess might be because of the length. So I have put my comments on a website. Here is the link to it http://weberafterdark.com/dcpfollowup/ Best regards to all Ray

I have been patiently and attentively reading every reply

I tried it again, this time is said "500 internal server error" ?

I want to post some additional info but I am getting an error 403? is there a length restriction? it is all typed text

The High Altitude SACD received several reviews. Including these 3 from the same site. https://www.hraudio.net/showmusic.php?title=6171#reviews http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/6171 Here is some information from a company we use. https://nadac.merging.com/history IMHO I consider the silence (dynamic range) between the notes to be more difficult/critical to record and playback than the notes themselves. From the visual picture of various sampling rates/methods you might see why I eventually settled on DSD. This picture is at 1XDSD, and would be the rate we used for the High Altitude SACD, an SACD can't store more than 1XDSD. However we did switch to the higher resolution 4XDSD a few years ago, which is not supported by an SACD disc. We did take a first foray into vinyl resulting in the following review https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/music-reviews/chopins-last-waltz-robert-silverman/ I have been using a few terms to describe Direct Stream Digital (DSD) 1XDSD is the same as DSD64, the original DSD sampling rate and the only rate used on an SACD 4XDSD is the same as DSD256 aka as Quad rate DSD, not to be confused with Quad sound which is 4-channel surround sound aka Surround 4.0 While I like DSD, I acknowledge that DSD has detractors. There are a few mini documentary videos which can be located by searching IsoMike or IsoMike Blue Knights As always YMMV

The Corps Encore Show ran for years before I even knew anything about drum corps. At some point the Ogden show failed and there were no shows in Ogden for a few years. My connections at the university, the community, my staff and my money were used to restart the Ogden show. My contributions might have been counterproductive, minor or even unnecessary to the re-start and continue the Ogden show, I don't know enough to make that call. What I do know is that myself and (paid) staff from my company were the first ones waiting for the arrival of the first corps, and the last person to leave. This is true even when some some corps arrived days early in Ogden, and true even when some corps stayed some days after the show. Year-round we tried to identify and fulfill various wants and needs of the corps when they were in Ogden. I don't know if anyone on DCP has any first-hand experience with the Ogden show during my involvement. I was intrigued with the possibility of capturing the sheer magic of the live acoustic performance in a recording. My attitude about any recording is that it is like trying to can/bottle sushi, you can't do it. But there is a difference between pet food and Albacore so I wanted to at least have recordings that failed in new ways. I have some wonderful friends in the audio industry, both on the consumer and the professional side who assisted me. I did post about those early recording experiences, called IsoMike here on DCP, I kinda liked some of the results. YMMV Technically we pushed the envelope (and budget) of every single factor. The last (unreleased) recordings we did are in 4XDSD 4.0 surround. We played back some of those raw master files at various audio shows with systems costing high 6 figures. I don't know if anyone on DCP has ever experienced one of my 4.0 playback demonstrations. I don't know if anyone on DCP were present, in the Ogden recording booth, when we did recordings. Again, I don't know if my recording efforts were counterproductive, minor or even unnecessary. Finally, what does "OP" mean?

For several years my delight with Drum Corps has been waning. My first experience with Drum Corps was in 2004 at the invitation of Dr. Thomas Root. It was electrifying for me. The sound had majesty, grace, and purity. I went to the souvenir trailers and purchased every CD I could lay my hands on. The quality of the recordings were much more variable than quality of the Corps on the field. None of the CDs were electrifying to me. Then for many years I endeavored to record all those elements, with various success. Along the way I provided yearly support for the Ogden Corps Encore Show. I recall clearly when I was faced with the first instance of canned show program, I was incredulous. In subsequent years the shows got even more canned and more amplified - rather than a race to have great musicians it was a race for expensive mixer boards, equalizers and speaker systems. As a side note there was also a race to incorporate props and scenery. During the last show in Ogden, I listened carefully - I was not electrified. I was electrified during some of the rehearsals that didn’t have the amplification running. It could be that there is a cumulative million+ hours of devotion within the members of a corps, and then all that majesty, grace, and purity is stuffed through a PA system. Now I have lost any interest in attending or supporting. I don’t like listening to amazing musicians through a vitiating PA system. Moreover I feel guilty about any of my efforts, donations, or support that subsidizes PA systems. It might be valid to compare the use of PA systems to steroid use, for my taste it sounds bad and feels like cheating. I sorrow for those million hours of musician devotion that I don’t hear with majesty, grace and purity. Ray Kimber, Ogden Utah

Well here we are at CES Las Vegas in Venetian 34-207 with a quite nice system having lots of fun playing music. System cost is a bit over $400,000 EMM with Ed Meitner is in the display with us and we are using the Sony SS-AR1 Loudspeakers with a very positive response from attendees. Graemme Brown of Zen Mastering is here along with engineer, Aaron Hubbard. Also frequently in our booth is Claude Cellier from Merging - merging.com It would be nice to shake the hand of any members of this forum, so please introduce yourself if you visit. We just had a visitor who is heavily involved with a Corps, it was purely an accidental visit - and he didn't know about the recordings. It would be safe to say that he was astonished. Virtually the entire directorship of Sony attended a private demo. I have a question..., is there a DCI event anywhere near San Diego this year? As they are now keen to experience Drum Corps live Ray

Yet another review of The Blue Knights and The Troopers on High Altitude Drums , this time from Audiophile Audition. The review is by the Chief Editor and he is plainly as enthusiastic about the performing and composing/arranging as he is the recording technology. John Sunier is very repected in the industry this is a big honor. http://www.audaud.com/article?ArticleID=6784 Once again congrats and thanks to the Corps who let me record them. Happy New Year Ray

IsoMike will be exhibiting at CES in Las Vegas Jan 7-10, 2010 As usual we will have a top-notch 4-channel playback system and Drum Corps recordings are a significant part of our demonstrations. The highest-end audio displays at CES are at The Venetian Hotel in the high-roller suites. IsoMike will be in Venetian suite 34-207 CES is a trade only show, closed to the public; but if there is a DCP/DCI participant that needs help with credentials send me an email. Happy Holidays, Ray

Here is another review of the disc, this time on positive feedback magazine, scroll to the end of the reviews http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue46/chandos.htm Here again - this is a publication where the readership is mostly (99.99%?) unaware of Drum Corps and of those that are aware, most (99.99% of 99.99%?) of them have never been to any DCI performance, hopefully this will put new butts in the seats. And wouldn't it be fantastic if new donors were the result!

High Altitude Drums has a debut review on THE premier SA-CD review and forum site, this is a big deal and extends the experience of Drum Corps to whole new listeners. http://www.sa-cd.net/showreviews/6171#6775 This is fantastic, I am so grateful to The Troopers and The Blue Knights. Ray Kimber

High Altitude Drums has reached "in stock" status at amazon.com YAY! http://www.amazon.com/High-Altitude-Drums-...3157&sr=1-2

Asking a favor of those who have listened to High Altitude Drums. This disc is for sale on Amazon and it is unlikely that the normal Amazon customer would have any idea what they are missing, 1-missing an idea of any drum corps experience and 2-of this specific recording. There are no reviews yet on Amazon and so I am asking if any DCP members are so inclined to please submit comments. (It is possible that you would have to purchase the product from Amazon before being allowed to submit a review, and if so please let me know by email and I would offer 2 additional IsoMike discs at N/C for you to share with friends - the discs can be any IsoMike single disc inventory, just send me a message on dcp) This would get the word out about Drum Corps and hopefully get more fans to the events. Next, the web site sa-cd.net this is a fantastic resource for high resolution recordings - High Altitude Drums is listed with some very nice comments, but none of the comments are from the viewpoint which has experience in a drum corps, or has other recordings of drum corps for comparison. sa-cd.net would also be a great resource about information about other music recordings - mostly classical and jazz. If a few of you have a few minutes I think it would help convert non-fans. Kind regards, Ray

The financial arrangement for recording at Weber is pretty good for the corps, let me give you a background story. IsoMike records more than just drum corps at WSU, we record virtaully all student group perfomances, we don't charge anything AND when we do sell discs we return all the money back to WSU, not just the profit - but the gross proceeds. For commercial groups like Fry Street Quartet we take care of all recording expenses, the commercial group pays for the editing. Then the commercial group can buy discs from us for just the pressing and mechanical license fees. This way the commerical group can sell the discs they buy from us at a profit for the commerical group, and IsoMike sells discs also with the proceeds flowing back to WSU. Because we raise a sustantial sum for the music programs at WSU, we get some very VERY nice cooperation when we need the stadium for recording. In the case of High Altitude Drums, we also paid for the editing. The Blue Knights and The Troopers can buy discs from us for just the pressing and mechanical fees to sell in their concession booths - i.e. all the recording expense is free to the corps. Discs sold direct by IsoMike flows back to WSU and lets IsoMike be a major, if not the major donor for Corps Encore in Ogden each summer. We work with each corps individually as the recordings are not of a "DCI event". I am extremely! interested in recording as many corps as possible, and to do it with a financial model as close to what we do at WSU as possible. Ray

The sale was supposed to be over yesterday on Friday, but I am leaving it up for DCP members until the end of this coming Monday, the same sale link is active. Thanks everyone for the kind words about the recording! Here is the youtube from 2007 Here is one in the WSU Austad Auditorium with me explaing the idea. Here is the BK 2007 video in high resolution and stereo http://vimeo.com/1189201 Ray

To get the full effect of High Altitude Drums you really need to listen to the high resolution DSD layers of this disc and do it in 4 channel. I suggest that bang for the buck the choice has to be a player called OPPO http://www.amazon.com/OPPO-BDP-83-Blu-ray-...7946&sr=1-1 Here is an Amazon link, it will also play nearly every other kind of media you can think of and this $500 OPPO has a "giant killer" reputation within audiophile circles. Or if you have an early PlayStation3 they will play SA-CD discs and do it in multichannel via the HDMI output.

There was a frustrating series of logistic events that prevented us getting recordings this last summer. We won't let that happen for 2010. I believe that The Blue Knights and The Troopers again will record and we are trying to coordinate off-days in Ogden for any other Corps that wishes to record with us. I would dearly love to get at least 3 corps in 2010 Ray