mn trumpter guy
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Posts posted by mn trumpter guy
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Though I don't take issue with the author's own opinions, I do take issue with the parent upset that the school "forced serious music students to attend band camp and march at football games," because this implies that marching band has no educational value. Instead, the marching music arts is just another performance venue similar to chamber choir, jazz band, concert band, etc. By requiring all music students to participate in multiple forms of music education, they become more well-rounded musicians.
I graduated college with a degree in mechanical engineering, but at the conclusion of my college years, I was required to take the 2-part "Fundamentals of Engineering" exam. The first 4-hours tests your breadth of knowledge in multiple engineering fields, such as electrical, chemical, structural, industrial, as well as mechanical engineering. The second 4-hours tests your depth of knowledge in the engineering field of your choice.
Though I have never in my 10 year career ever used a bit of chemical engineering, having a basic understanding of the field has made me a better engineer. The same is true for music education. "But high-stepping marching band has no education value," you say. The same could be said for a poorly run concert band, but this has to do with the music program itself, and not the genre of music.
THANK YOU!
The issue here, to me at least, is the assumption that marching band is solely entertainment. Is entertainment the goal? Why, yes, but isn't that also one of the goals of a concert band?
I teach band in a smaller town in Western Wisconsin- this is my first year teaching. While not the most demanding band schedule I've ever seen, there are a raft of requirements; marching bands, pep bands, etc. Do the kids complain about the requirements? yes, sometimes, but it helps that they know I must be there for everything as well, and the emphasis is on having fun, performing well, and giving something back to our community.
As others have said: mandatory marching band is only a bad thing if the focus is EXCLUSIVELY as a function of sports. If the emphasis is instead on educational opportunities and new experiences for students, then sports-related performances are simply the medium.
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Could be a great thing for this organization to have a fresh staff, under the direction of the same corps executive director for a long time running (Brad Furlano). He should have an idea of things that work and things that don't by now.
I am very interested. Although I have loved Frank's brass books since about 2008, last year's whole production had clear issues (although I still think it was finals-worthy).
I hope their brass can get their mojo back.
And I wonder what's going on with Guard- I didn't see any mention of Michael Shapiro, so maybe he's staying?
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The truth lies in the middle ground - it's never an extreme.
EVER! NEVER EVER. If there is ONE thing you believe in this world it's that there are NO black-and-whites- ONLY shades of grey, and NOTHING ELSE.
[/sarcasm]
Just kidding- I agree. I just love the irony of the saying "never speak in absolutes"
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Thank you all for your thoughts. I've made the time since moving to become more involved on the forum here, and have from time to time found myself "erecting barriers" as Mr. Boo put it.
I'm not sure if I was looking to have my life changed by my question; it was just something I've been thinking about.
Moderators- feel free to close this thread, or let it die of its own accord.
Thank you again!
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are you sure your curiosity isn't "piqued"?
I think it must be both! It's piqued to its peak!
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Dear thread: I apologize. I've allowed myself to be taken off topic. I will cease and desist all non-topical postings.
On that note (no pun intended):
I am VERY excited to see what DVD does with Troop.
also.
Seriously- anyone know what's up with Aungst (possibly) leaving the Blue Stars? What a shame for them. Dude's a beast.
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I'll be the first to admit: I'm not the most experienced dude around. Yeah, I marched for 4 years in World class (including finals), and yeah, I've taught for a few years, at both world and open class levels.
But I was not raised around drum corps. It was not popular in my area, or my school. For 3 of my 5 years at college, I was the only music major to be involved.
So, my question to you, oh DCP-verse is:
How important is it, on these forums, to have experience marching in drum corps? Why?
There are certainly some things that are best understood from experience. There are some discussions people who did not march might best avoid. But for the most part, I feel the discussions here are discussions someone who is only familiar from a 'fan' perspective can participate in.
Therefore, part III is: Where is the line where experience starts to matter, if there is one?
Feel free to answer, or not. I've just wondered for a while, and decided to pose the question to the masses, instead of perseverating on it myself.
Plus, it's a while till November (and longer till June). Gotta kep busy somehow!
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[/u]That's a shame. So, what you are telling me then is that you did not trust your staff enough to believe what they say at face value? You had to have it beat into you (emotionally speaking). That's just sad.
Nope. Not at all what I said. What I said was "I knew everything I needed to know, but my shortcomings were getting in my way." Are you really suggesting that someone blandly saying "work harder" is just as effective as someone saying it with energy? Where did I say they 'beat' it into me? Not at all. They were excited and invested in the moment, and I fed off their energy and commitment. There were zero negative consequences. I honestly don't see what is wrong with that situation.
Really? How about Blue Devils B? They are part of the same organization and take the same approach. Wait, no...actually...they DO rehearse less. Less than everyone in World Class because they have a shorter summer to begin with? That's HOW "Open Class" does it. LOL! How's that for a backfire?
Is your assertion that BDB is better than BD because they rehearse less? Because what I said was "more rehearsal, for most groups, will create a better end product."
So are you saying BDB would score lower with more rehearsal time? Because that makes zero sense.
And if you want to expand that to all "open class"... you're arguing that Blue Saints, Les Stentours, 7th Regiment, Legends, EVERYONE would score better if they rehearsed less? Because again... I said that "more rehearsal will help them score better" in regards to most drum corps.
Furthermore, it's not so much about "less rehearsal" as it is about being smart with your time and energy. It's not like the Blue Devils don't work hard. They work extremely hard. The difference is, they also work smart. They don't generally jump off a 4 hour bus ride, give their kids two hours on the floor and then crank the lights on and rush everyone out to the field for 14 hours. It's called balance. They work hard....and they rest well. The work hard...and they eat well. They travel well....and then they rest well. They work hard some more....and then they play well (i.e., by playing I mean time off....anyone see the
And it's great that that works for them; I'm glad they and you seem to believe so strongly in their methodology. I like the experience I got out of my drum corps. My friend who started with Pioneer, then moved to Blue Stars, then to Madison enjoyed his experience. My friend who marched Revolution and worked his way to Cavaliers loved his time in drum corps.
Why is it your place to say the Blue Devils' approach is "best"? What measure gives that firm of an evaluation OTHER than championships. So although you have not stated, verbatim "winning is all that matters," your vehemence that BD's method is the ONLY right way to approach the activity says just that.
Lets face it, it's unhealthy to approach this activity the way most people approach it.
Why? I loved working my butt off all day every day. It was awesome.
It's not normal in the real world to work 2 months straight without a day off.
It's also not normal to run around with instruments and flags, but we do it anyways.
Granted, some people do (and unfortunately that's due to how screwed up things in this economy and society in general have gotten...but that's for another thread in another forum). Still, it's not normal and not healthy.
Still waiting for the "why" here. Also, I work my butt off at my job, including most weekends, and I love it. I wouldn't trade my job for any other in the world. It's awesome.
The human body needs at least one day off per week to re-gain strength. Frankly (get ready to red minus me with this one), I think a huge number of corps in this activity (like, probably a majority) are completely stupid, insane and abusive for having ONE....maybe TWO days off (if that) per tour. It's absolutely sick and abusive. Our bodies can't handle it.
No worries- I won't "red neg" you. I'll just feel bad that you seem to have no respect for anything but a group that wins.
What is funny is that my "stupid, insane, abusive" drum corps experience made me WAY healthier, mentally, emotionally, and physically, than any other activity I've ever been involved in. My body handled it just fine. So... speak for yourself on the "our bodies can't handle it."... I guess.
Out of sheer curiosity- did you actually march anywhere? Or is this all from a "theoretical" standpoint. Because that would explain a lot.
And you all thought I was talking about "winning"? No, not at all. All I was doing was pointing out the very interesting coincidence (or is it) that the corps that wins more than any other is the one corps who (and it's obviously common knowledge) has the most balanced blend of work time and down time of any other corps. If you want to make it about "winning", that is of your own accord. I'm just laying the facts out there.
The "coincidence" you've laid out:
BD has an approach.
They win a lot.
Your conclusion is:
BD's approach is the best.
The only possible measure give you that conclusion is if you are measuring "best" by championship trophies.
Conversely, here's my set of facts:
BD has an approach.
They win a lot.
Their members enjoy their experience.
The members of most, if not all, other drum corps enjoy THEIR experience(s)
Here's my conclusion:
A lot of different people enjoy a lot of different things.
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sure BD goes where others are afraid to
They definitely go places other people don't. I think it's a hard sell that people don't go there because they are "afraid" to. I think it likely that they don't go there because they don't want to; most groups try to entertain as many people as possible. some also try to push the boundaries of drum corps.
Personally, I feel like BD's design team thinks about entertaining as a secondary (or at least not primary) objective. Not that that is better or worse than other teams. It's just my impression, based on their designs.
DISCLAIMER: I actually found their show this year very interesting (though not 2008-2011).
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BD did a very uplifting show this year! It was down right funny too!
Honest question: are you being sarcastic? I can't tell. I liked their shows... Neither of those words describe it, IMO.
If you are serious: how do you see those two things? My curiosity is peaked.
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I know this was a while ago, but it was a great question, so I feel I should answer it.
Why? What did it do for you that simple information presented in a respectful manner would not have done?
I knew what I needed to know. What I didn't realize was that, emotionally, I wasn't invested in what i was doing- the specific event I remembered right away was during my first year- I was really an idiot, and not just mostly one.
Simply telling me "I feel like you're not giving me your all" would have been ineffective; I truly felt I was. What I didn't know was that there was a whole other emotional level that I wasn't aware of. For me, the best way to get emotion out of someone is to give them emotion. That doesn't necessarily mean yelling, but in some cases, that works.
In and of itself, it doesn't demean anyone. If the relationship is right, it can communicate something on a more basic level than words; namely, an emotion or feeling.
Hey, you're starting to get it.
And now you've lost it. Too bad. You almost had it partially figured out and then you got silly and off topic and down we fall like a kid not quite ready to ride a bike.
Except you completely missed the point of my post: winning isn't everything, and just because something works for one person does not mean it will work for anyone else.
The Blue Devils, as an organization, function because of their circumstances; a feeder system that builds a single approach. A mindset of most of the people who march there (and yeah, I've known enough to make that statement). They have a specific style of show that they do (think broader than theme).
For most, if not all, other corps, a feeder system like they have is not an option. That rules out the 'single approach for years and years'. Blue Devils don't have to worry about teaching a technique; their people, for the most part, already know what's up. Hence, they can afford to do other things differently than other corps.
Are you suggesting that less rehearsal would help all open class corps get higher scores? Or even most of the rest of World Class? Ridiculous.
So DCI is only about winning? Got it....
Guess I wasted my time then showing up in St. Louis those years my corps didn't win, even though we were a crowd favorite. Oh, darn. Good thing I didn't waste my time this year since we didn't win.Maybe time for you to re-evaluate your priorities about drum corps and the music world, if you think it's all about just ending up on top.
exactly.
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Considering that corps have played from tunnels and cross the sideline, I see no reason that they couldn't play from the podium.
Perhaps they couldn't do it because it didn't work for them?
Otherwise, It just seems like a strange rule considering Phantom's Into the Light Show and Santa Clara's Carmen show...
1978 Blue Stars. The show opened with a soprano solo from the DM podium. And Tambourine.
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Yelling at the kids is never productive.
One should never, ever, speak in absolutes. It is ALWAYS terrible.
In all seriousness; I know there were certainly times when I marched that was glad my staff was yelling at me. It made me angry at myself and that helped me focus on what I needed to do. It got my adrenaline flowing and renewed my energy.
Is it always good? heck no. Is it sometimes useful for this or that purpose? yup. At least it was for me.
Point is: different strokes for different folks. Yelling is a tool, with a specific purpose and use in mind. It can be productive.
In the case y'all are discussing, it sounds like it was not productive, but it can be from time to time.
Funny, I hear rumors that BD's staff yells the least of any. Maybe there is something to their 15 titles that goes beyond the obvious. Maybe BD is the only one who has....well.......a LOT..........of things figured out and the rest of the activity is doing things backwards.
I hear rumors that BD sleeps late a lot. I KNOW they have a relaxed retreat. What do they eat for food? Maybe everyone should do those things too. Let's all wear blue and black, and have our tubas wear berets. Let's put on shows that some people enjoy and #### some people off. EVERYONE BE THE SAME NOW!!!!
I know you don't mean that, but isn't the point of drum corps to offer a variety of products and experiences, so we can find the one that fits us best? Everyone I know who marched at Phantom says they got chewed out A LOT and loved it. Like I said: different strokes for different folks.
Unless it's all about winning. Then we should all put on shows that put the sheets first, and audience enjoyment second. There will, after all, still be some people who dig what happens.
PS: I know that all sounds really negative towards BD. I apologize- don't mean to attack them. They do their thing very well (and I actually enjoyed it this year). The point is, we all can do different things, and that's awesome.
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Isn't that really about all we have anyway? Honestly? Not to sound trite here ... but at the end of the day .. GE decides a title and placement of every corps over 80% of the time.
To me, that is an argument to increase the effect of the field score, rather than to remove the score altogether.
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As a former Trooper and former Trooper parent, it saddens me to see a continual churn of staff at Troopers. Maybe everyone in that category of competition has the same issue? It feels like if you documented all the staff / caption heads / consultants they've had over the past 10 years it would be quite a lengthy list. With that kind of turnover, one has to wonder whatthe underlying issues are.
Does everyone in the 12-16 range have this amount of staff turnover?
Many groups have some amount from year to year. Things happen; my old caption head stopped caption-heading because his wife had a child, and he needs to be at home.
Complete overhauls are not super common, but they do happen. Sometimes, though, a complete change in staff does not bode ill; if the technique stays the same, but the staff changes, it can be good.
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How did it work? Well? not well? It had to be weird for the marching members.
Random thought: this could revolutionize drum corps instruction; it would change 180 degrees from what I was always told. I was told to never listen to the pit. If we moved them to the back sideline, it would be
"When are you supposed to listen to the pit?"
"ALWAYS!"
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1.) Alphorns? Or gigantic, excessively large Suess-like horns? Or one humungous drum?
Cavies 2009: the Great Divide
3.) Can battery and brass use flags or equipment? How about the pit? Could a whole corps flash flags all at once?
Blue Stars 2009: The Factory, Cadets 2011: Between Angels and Demons
4.) Building pyramids out of guard members, launching jumps etc as in cheerleading? Springboards as per gymnastics? Teeter-totter-aided jumps as in circuses?
Cavies 2002: Frameworks
5.) Wheels - unicycles, bicycles?
Blue Stars 2008: Le Tour
6.) Spring-loaded launching of streamers
Cavies 2008: Samurai
7.) Can brass players put down their bugles and beat on something - an MPE* (Massive Percussion Event)?
Blue Devils B 2012: Water... Something. Can't remember
8.) To what degree can the audience participate? Like, SCV yell - could there be a call-and-response with the audience? Could you get the audience to scat with you?
Phantom Regiment 2008: Spartacus
9.) Put the director/conductor in the middle of the field, as Mickey in 'The Sorcerer's Apprentice'?
Pretty much all corps in the 1970's and before
11.) Stilts? (I think Cavaliers did this once?)
Cavies 2011: XtraordinarY
13.) Tumbling?
Most guard have a least a bit of this every year.
14.) Could the Phantomettes, say, just pick up soprano bugles and blow some awesome lick? How cool would that be!
They did. Phantom Refiment 2010: Into the Light
15.) After PR's Turandot, it has to be asked - how many people are allowed on the conductor's stand (at once)? Can you play an instrument(s) from there?
Yes: Blue Stars 1978. Opening line was a thumb roll on tambourine and Soprano solo on the podium.
16.) Illuminated or otherwise wired uniforms?
Being discussed now on these forums
18.) Is it even required to have a conductor on the field?
Nope
19.) What are the limits of personnel per type of instrument? Could you field thirty contras, say, for one segment of a show? Forty?
Yep.
20.) Helium balloons?
Glassmen 2008: Karneval
21.) Reflective equipment and uniforms
Star of Indiana 1991, Cadets 2011, TONS of uniforms every year
22.) Stage magic - ladies sawn in half, levitating the conductor, drill with interlocking rings, making the battery disappear? Locking the conductor in a trunk a la Houdini?
Like Blue Stars 2010: HOUDINI ?
Things I'm pretty sure aren't allowed, or shouldn't be - flash powder, fireworks, paints, confetti, water, smoke-making equipment, video and projection equipment, live animals of any kind. Shooting anything (tour shirts, confetti, water) at the audience. Filming the audience. Trapping or chasing the judges.
If they get caught... It's their own fault
I'm sure you knew some of these, if not all. But a lot of this stuff has been done.
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I was in the audience and the crowd was definitely rooting for Crown.
Not from where I was sitting!
Then again... I was sitting basically in the middle of BDB. So that might explain things.
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You mentioned audience engagement added to the sheets. From the responses to their show that have been stated on dcp, I don't quite understand ??? What is it in the definition for this criterion that the judges awarded positively to BD over other corps?
For us average fans, we'd call it "positive audience feedback". Judges must be interpreting it differently. Why can't they put a "number of standing ovations per show" category on the sheets?
I know FSUbone responded to this (and did a pretty good job), but I thought I would add my $.02
There is DEFINITELY a difference between 'engagement' and 'entertainment' or 'enjoyment'. Many, MANY people thought that entertainment was going to be on the sheets, and assumed that's what'engagement' meant. Hence the flood of negative reactions to BD's show; it was not what most would call 'entertaining'.
I think 'engagement' means is it interesting- is there something going on that the audience gets involved in, be that involvement of the "throwing babies" persuasion, or the "scratch your head and figure out what just happened to you" persuasion.
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I love the way this thread has gone off the rails (er, evolved)
Wasn't this all about having time for corps with a high school schedule? I'm going to go back to the high school frame of reference for a minute and the all important college application: Admission depts. look at the depth and breadth of a student's extra curriculars, they want to see involved kids. Frankly, you'd think you need to cure cancer in your junior year to garner an admission from some schools. College is competitive, life is competitive.
I know plenty of kids who manage corps, band, sports, acadec, scouts, and countless other activities. They are valedictorians, class leaders, community service organization members. They find a way to do all of these things without diluting them. I don't think many of these youth organizations take a "your time is ours - all or nothing" stance. They recognize that today's youth are pulled in a variety of directions. I tell ya, it's a far cry from my lazy misspent childhood. I'm hopeful for tomorrow when I see some of these kids, I certainly don't see a sense of "me first" entitlement. I see kids learning values, leadership, time management, competition, sportsmanship. These are students I would want to admit - these are future adults I would want to employ.
(of course, these are the same kids doing sometimes x-rated and usually crude things on tour buses - ahhh to be young again)
You are, of course, absolutely right. For every kid out there who is only in things for themselves, there are tons who want to be a part of something great. Who do everything without compromising quality or character.
Thank you for bringing us back to the positive.
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So... 5 to 10 years from now, when I hire one of these new kids coming out of school, I can expect that do not have the ability to prioritize or make a decision effectively?
That is encouraging.
That is precisely what should be taken from this.
Personally I wouldn't go to that extreme (that was my interpretation of Stu's viewpoint.)
Like I said though: I have noticed my students not understanding that the world is not always accommodating to their every whim. Is that because of dci? Heck no- none of them march (yet).
My guess is its a product of how our world and culture has changed. We are so accommodating to very thing that when something logistically can't work, some people just flat out don't know what to do.
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And yet, many corporations not only allow...but encourage their employees to take time off from their jobs to participate in the Olympics. Why do you think they do that? Could it be that they see some potential benefit?
Schools and universities are, by and large, not dumb.
I could be incorrect (it does happen from time to time
)I believe Stu's point is 2-fold.
1) If the university, corporation, etc. wanted to require attendance and not make an exception, it is fully in their rights to do so.
2) While it is great that people and corporations and universities are cooperating, one possible side effect is that when compromise is not possible, people are getting more and more incapable of prioritizing and making decisions effectively.
Especially with this second point, I have to agree; I have witnessed even in my own students get focused on what they want to happen, and what is a realistic option.
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I know it would be very easy for a band director to have a few kids in corps who came back, were bored with how easy everything was, had bad attitudes (maybe quit), and just put the kabbash on the whole 'drum corps' issue. I understand; but I honestly feel this is a case of a few rotten apples spoiling the bunch.
However, I also know that a lot of corps people- particularly here on DCP, where we are more anonymous than the real life, have shown disdain for high school bands. If we think those kids aren't on here reading, we are insane; I personally know some high schoolers who have seen this attitude and decided not to march because they didn't want to be around the people who hated them.
Not calling out anyone here- just food for the collective thought.
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Maybe there does need to be a price cap on show design but it will be difficult to impossible to judge. One Time investments in the right equipment can last along time.
I have thought about this often; instead of a 'spending' cap, you could do a 'price' cap- use the price of each item in the pit- a new version of this keyboard costs X amount, plus a new speaker is Y, etc.
This might equalize the playing field a bit?
Blue Stars new uniform unveiled!
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
As a person who wore both helmets and shakos... I liked the helmets more from a unique-tradition standpoint (and foolishly, selfishly complained when we switched... I feel badly about that), but the shakos CERTAINLY are easier to make look good.
And, yes, I would like some more blue.
But MOSTLY... I just want the team to do well, put on a great show, and have a great experience.