DantheOldMan
-
Posts
90 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by DantheOldMan
-
-
Before I simplified things, I wrote an analysis of the sheets several days ago that went into MUCH greater detail.
But even I got a headache reading it.
I can imagine. Scoring gets the vexation of many fans, mostly because most of us who don't know how it works or what is being looked at. I know that the judges are really trying to do a good job and be fair and consistent. But, since it is subjective, those of us on the outside still question things when we see irregularities. Some people don't care, but there are some of us who do. So, it is a really an interesting problem. I know enough about percussion to know which drumline is better than the next, and I know which marching routines I like or brass books I like, but it would help us non-experts to know more about the mind of the judge.
But, as I said, I may be an anomaly. I know what my son would say: "Dad, just shut up!!"
-
Percussion 1 is on the field, and thus focused heavily on the battery. Percussion 2 is in the box, and thus is focused more on the pit and the overall percussion ensemble. Since they're seeing different things and using different sheets, there's no particular reason why they should agree on score or ranking.
There's a stronger argument for expecting consistency when you have two GE Visual judges standing side by side.
Your right. But that doesn't explain a spread of 4th and 11th places. I can accept 4th and 6th, but 4th and 11th doesn't work.
You are aware that performance order at regionals and championships is determined by the corps' scores in the current year, right? If you're performing at 5PM with the sun in your eyes, it's because that's the slot you've earned.Yup. My post was addressing scoring before regionals or between regionals.
DCI.org has this feature called "recaps" that lets you see the rankings given by each individual judge. Not a single judge at finals put the corps in performance order. This is typical of the results at a major show.I know all about the recaps. But, the recap just creates more questions. Going again to the San Antonio show, looking at the recaps gives me no reason why the battery was picked 4th by one judge and 11th by the other.
Frankly, your post comes off as very poorly informed on the topic of scoring.I do believe that this thread is called DCI Judging 101 (which means it is a primer). As I said, I would like more information about scoring. I am the paying public, I am not a DCI expert. But, I am a former musician who played music for over 16 years in the 60s and 70s, and marched in college in a Big 10 university in the 70s, who unfortunately didn't have the time or money to march in a DCI corp. When I went to a DCI show in the 80s or 90s, I didn't follow scores, because I didn't care. Now that my son is marching, I don't see the equity in the scoring. I would like it explained. So, if I'm poorly informed, why don't you discuss scoring on this thread that someone set up to talk about scoring and answer my questions. I may be wrong in my conclusions, but I believe this is the place to ask.
-
Well, Hawkeye, at least I got you talking.
Tuning of the drums IS on the scoresheet!!!!!!!!!!! C'mon. I've spoke with judges more than once about this after my high school kids' performances. one judge docked us b/c he didn't like our short bass tuning range, and then I had to explain that our bass 5 quit the week before. another time we blew 5 tenor heads in the lot. cranking new heads will do absolutely nothing in that situation. the drumheads fell flat and were way out of tune, and he called us on it. The drum angle thing i don't know about. Tuning though, totally fair game.I understand that tuning of the drums is on the scoresheet. That has validity for bass drums or tympanies or tenors. I stand corrected as to those drums. (As an old snare drummer, I don't think farther down the line
). All I am asking is should it be an issue for snare? Should a mylar head matter over a Kevlar? If everyone uses Kevlar and just cranks them down, why should it matter?Wow. Is no one else going to call this one out...?!?! It is VERY POSSIBLE 9 are cleaner than 7. I don't mean to be so direct, but I can't fathom your rationale here? Can you explain how its impossible..!?! seriously.Yes, it is possible for 9 snares to sound cleaner than 7 when the 7 are god-awful, but if you have 9 good snares and 7 comparable snares in another corps, you don't believe that it is easier to keep the 7 clean? Come on! I've been there (back in the dark ages, granted), but the smaller number is easier to keep clean.
Can you honestly not see a correlation between performance time and talent level?! I'm not talking about one time slot vs the next.. if you go on last, the 2nd to last corps is probably pretty close to that talent level. but in ordered shows, I'm pretty sure most people can agree that, say, performances ordered 12-15 would generally not be as talented as performances say 3-5. I don't buy your logic one bit.Is this the chicken or the egg? Now, if you are comparing Pioneer with Blue Devils, you're right. But the corps in the middle seem to get slotted scores. I'm not talking about a regional show, but a show before regionals or between regionals. It just seems to me the scoring cooincidentally seems to follow order of performance. That's my opinion.
As to performing in the sun, it made a difference as a parent of a corp member. I would have gotten better pictures when the sun wasn't messing up my shots.
-
Cymbalmom and Linda Slocum:
I know the two of you abhorred the scoring like I did this year. There is a new thread called DCI Judging 101 started by a guy who wrote an article for the DCI website about scoring. I have added my comments to this thread. You should check it out and add your comments as well.
Dan
edited to fix name of thread.
-
Michael, I am glad that you opened the floodgates with your article, because one of the biggest issues fans have with DCI is scoring. I am not considering a fan someone who has just seen their first drum corp show, but someone who knows music and marching and can't for the life of them explain why the scoring is so divergent.
The problem I have with your article is that it focuses almost entirely on the subjective view of the judge. Is that all judging is? Is it merely one judge's "feelings" about the show? If so, then there is no wonder why so many of us have a problem with scoring. There needs to be objective criteria that a judge looks at. I am sorry, but I have seen individual judges scoring percussionists in high school contests who downgraded one performer because he felt that the drum was not in tune or the field drum should have been on an angle instead of flat. So, percussion judges grading a DCI corp on the tuning of a drum? How absurd!! I may like the sound of mylar heads from the 1980s rather than the kevlar heads from the 2000's. Does a corp get downgraded merely because they chose a different style drum head that one judge doesn't like? There needs to be objectivity in scoring. If there is, then that is what you should focus on for the musicians of the world that wonder how DCI does its scoring.
Let me give you an example. Percussion Judge 1 scored Madison Scouts 4th in percussion in San Antonio, but percussion judge 2 in the stands scored them 11th? How does that happen? That is absurd. That is like the Russian Judges of the 1970s in olympics. "Oh, that score was from the Russian judge, so you can ignore it!!" When one percussion judge scores a battery in 4th and another scores them in 11th, there is a problem with the objective criteria used by the judges. It needs to be standardized.
Also, you didn't focus on an issue I have had for a long time. What if one corps decides to use 7 snare drummers, but another corps goes with 9? Should both snarelines be judged the same? It is impossible for 9 snare drummers to play as cleanly as 7. It is simply impossible. So, do we standardize the numbers of snare drummers, or does the corps with more snare drummers get a break? Does the percussion judge give extra points to the corps that uses 9 snare drummers versus the corps that uses 7? You are comparing apples and oranges. What about difficulty. What if one corps drumline decides to play a very difficult "book." Does the drumline that plays an easier "book" get a good score if it was played cleanly? Same issue with difficulty for brass. There has to be points given for difficulty. Otherwise, everyone will play "Mary hand a little lamb!"
Another issue I have with scoring is performance times. First, I think it is wrong for this year's corps to get a better (or worse) playing time due to the scores of the corps last year. What does last year have to do with it? Plus, you must concede that performing with the sun in your eyes adversely affects you while performing in the dark under the lights is easier. So, the corps that go later get an advantage. Isn't it interesting that the corps performing later get better scores? Also, when corps performance times are based on last year's scores, I am always amazed at how this year's judges score this year's corps in identical order that they placed last year. Don't you think that if the corps pulled a number out of the hat for their performance time and there wasn't a specific order, we wouldn't see judges scoring corps from worse to best as the night goes on? We really wonder if they deserve that score or are really getting that score because of performance time.
Yes. I have a lot of issues with scoring. I have suggested elsewhere on this bulletinboard that judges comments should be posted online as well. DCI should post is rules online for everyone to see. I would like to see the rules. DCI needs to adopt a transparency scheme so that people like me can understand a judge's score, because I can look at his or her comments. I may disagree with the score, but I can see what it is based on. I am a lawyer by day (retired musician at night!!) and lawyers simply want people to be accountable. Having a transparency scheme would keep DCI accountable to the people who pay the ticket prices -- the fans.
Now, I want to say two things in favor of the judges. I thought that the judges did a good job at finals. I believe that the 12 corps in finals were the 12 best. I would have had Cavaliers in 2nd, but again I can live with 3rd. I definitely agree that Phantom Regiment deserved to win. Also, I know that it is a tough job being a judge. One judge's negative comments can keep a corp out of finals. That is not an easy burden to bear.
With finances being tighter for the common man (and woman) who comes to the DCI show, DCI needs to feel the pulse of the public and make its scoring beyond reproach. I would move more to judging based on objective criteria, but we still deal with subjective people in the end. So, I understand it is a hard job.
Those are my comments on a very difficult topic.
-
3. Move up six spots in one season. (could be wrong on this one)
I think Madison was 19th on June 28th, but finished 12th. That's 7 spots in one season.
However, nice season Blue Stars. The additions made to the show were great. I enjoyed the show very much.
-
Since I was one of the people who was very vocal against Jeff Prosperie, I wanted to point out that he had the Scouts in 11th place for percussion on August 9th at finals. Just thought that was interesting.
-
Should Colts have made Finals? Yes
Should Crossmen have made Finals? Yes
Should Madison have made Finals? Yes
IMO, all three of these shows were Finals worthy. It just shows you how competitive this year was, and that it is once again a very tough challenge to make Finals. Maybe next year, we'll be talking about a 15th and 16th place show that 'should have been in Finals'. It just makes this activity that much more exciting and enjoyable.
Great points!!
-
I don't know what the Cavies did, but the Madison Scouts (and presumably other corps) in the parking lot (since Madison's buses were first) started applauding PR as they walked by. Drum corps are one big brotherhood/sisterhood!!
-
I've been jazzed about Phantom Regiment since I saw them at Stanford. Even knowing that Regiment ALWAYS builds on the effects and adds the bells and whistles, there was a certain coherence about the show that looked like they had the potential to take this a lot farther than might be evident on the surface.
That potential really started manifesting as they started adding to the show ... Oh, they had the musicianship from the get go. The talent was there. All the little changes, additions, costuming, props, herald trumpets, it all built on the foundation. But what really started making it happen, more than anything else in selling that show, was when they started letting loose with the magic ingredient: A complete commitment to the selling the theatrical elements of the show. Fully committing to approaching drum corps as theater. It was genius.
Every bit of play acting, from the soldiers brutal treatment of the slaves, to laying the seeds of discord between the drum majors ... It all got to the audience, quickly, and suddenly were were in it with them. Willing participants in the passion that was to come. In doing this they took theatricality in drum corps to a new level, almost creating a new type of performance art. The more over-the-top they took it, the quicker and easier it became for the audience to get involved.
As the Regiment Drum Major lay on the field in between the other corps' majors covered in his death shroud (another brilliant extension of the moment) we waited.
I saw PR's show for the first time on June 21st in Rockford, and I didn't like it. It left me dry. But, as you said, they made many little changes since then. They really sold the show. I honestly didn't like the "abusive" treatment of the "slaves" but again they were selling the show. Coming onto the field the way they did was genius. They sold it to us before the show started. Will Pitts on his "throne." The slaves in chains. The Goose stepping horns. They sold it. But, to me, the final sales job was Will Pitts lying "dead" while announcing the scores. Genius. I didn't like PR's show on June 21st, but I loved it on August 9th! I too cheered when BD was announced in second. Good Job PR.
-
I am a parent of a Madison Scout, so naturally I was glad the Scouts came in 12th. Personally, I believe that the Colts improved greatly and should have jumped over the Crossmen in the semifinals. I liked the Colts show, but am not certain that it was a top 12 show. That's my opinion. I think the Colts should have more movement while playing. Too much standing while playing. The Scouts' entire show was marched at 180-200 beats per minute, with almost no standing still. I would also get rid of the baton twirler -- too marching band for me. But, I thought the Colts had a great show.
On a side-bar, I thought the Colts show was more deserving of finals that Blue Knights, but that is my opinion again. I didn't like BK's show at all. Other than that, I thought that all the top 12 shows were well done.
I feel for the Colts and know that they worked very hard. It is unfortunate that anyone has to sit out on Saturday night.
-
The drummajor laying dead was an excellent part of the night, especially since the assistant drummajors didn't stand up front. PR rocked at that show!!
-
I just wanted to add my congratulations to Phantom Regiment. My son is a Madison Scout, but we were really pulling for PR. Funny thing is that I saw PR's show in Rockford on June 21st, and I didn't like it. PR's show got better and better all summer, and by the end I really liked it. Great show PR. You deserved to win!!
-
6. 12th place is a great start, not an huge accomplishment in the grander scheme. I'm sure the staff and the members also think so. Yes, the corps now performs on Saturday...but now we need to focus on how we do our part to see if we can help the corps perform later in the evening on Saturday (bigger crowd). Our part is supporting the corps with our volunteer time, talent and financial support.
Yeah, it was 12th place, but considering the year they had (and considering last year), we were all excited about 12th!! (Next year they will move up!) But, being in 12th, they got to set the tone for finals on Saturday. The man in back of us at finals (who knew we were Scouts fans) said after the Scouts performance "How do you get any better than that?" I think that was a great comment on the show.
By the way, it was a big crown when the Scouts performed. Home side of stadium was almost full.
After hearing all the shows on Saturday night, I came away with one conclusion: The Scouts belonged in the top 12. That was no gift. They deserved to be there.
Next year, watch out.
-
Probably my last post this week.
1. Alumni...pay your dues.
2. Good luck Madison...today...tomorrow, Friday, and hopefully on Saturday.
3. Baraboo. Enough said.
4. Thanks to the volunteers who were able to give of themselves this season. It's truly the most exhausting, never ending, sweaty, hard, and rewarding job anyone can do. I always was blown away when the marching members thanked me as they often did. I wanted to thank them for what they do. Nice when life works out that way.
5. Mr. Spanos and the rest of the staff. I said two years ago, we'd know by now...well, I know Madison is in capable hands at present.
6. Alumni....pay your dues. It's worth a second mention. And while I am at it...there are tons of non-alumni fans on this thread...one of the longest in DCP history I imagine. To you non-alums out there....it's really easy to click on that link that Linda always has in her signature. $100 is two weeks of PB&J!!! Best story of the entire thread in my opinion.
7. So good luck to the Scouts...GO SCOUTS!!! with the 3 exclamation points and whatnot. It's been fun conversing/arguing/getting MAD (get it?)/ with all of you. Hopefully we all have learned a few things.
8. Steve Powers is a great asset to the Scouts.
9. Jeff Koehn is a fine humanitarian and a wonderful artist.
10. GO SCOUTS!!!
And finally, may the Scouts achieve success this week as they individually and as a corps define it. And may they have the safest of travels to and from their rehearsal site to Bloomington and home from there.
[horns down]
Thanks for your comments here Tom. I, for one, enjoyed reading your snippets. Since my wife was traveling with the Scouts for 3 weeks, this bulletin board gave me someone to talk to -- especially about the Madison Scouts. Since my wife left me again for Toledo and is traveling with the corp until finals, I guess I will have to meet up with any of you on the road as we drive to Bloomington!!
Here's hoping for the best for our Men from Madison!!
-
when you say "that"...what do you mean by "that." Is it different from "it"?
It depends on what the definition of is, is -- to quote a president!!
-
5 - Blue Stars
16 - Carolina Crown (-)
18 - Madison Scouts (+)
22 - Phantom Regiment (-)
16 - Santa Clara Vanguard
15 - Troopers-
Credit Scouts, Tick Carolina Crown, Tick Phantom
-
Just got back from their afternoon rehearsal. It was raining when we arrived and once we got into the stands the clouds parted and it has turned into a warm and sunny day. Let's hope the rain stays away for the next several hours.
I know this is going to sound like I'm being too much of a "homer," but I had to lean over to my wife while they were running a section of the closer and say how crazy it is that a show this good and so entertaining isn't a lock for finals. This show has definitely gone through some growing pains, but it is clicking! The guard was incredible for the run through. A few minor visual and musical errors made by the horns that can be fixed for tonight and they should be set. This is a group that has learned how to perform the "heck" out of a very difficult show.
That being said, all the other corps are working hard too, so I understand the competition. This corps right now could probably give the 2005 group some trouble. Drum Corps has just really gotten a boost from every corps and it is unbelievably hard. That being said, here's hoping for a week to remember and a Saturday night performance by the Scouts at Finals.
Glad to hear about the weather. I was worried that they were going to get rained out this evening. Here's hoping the weather holds!!
As to being a homer, I know that all the rest of us Madison Scouts fans agree with you. We just don't understand how this show is not a top 12. Unfortunately, everyone feels the same about their show, but I truly believe that this show has a difficulty level not there in some of the corps currently in 6-12th place. I hope that they can move up at least to that coveted 12th spot for a Saturday evening show.
-
Of the Allentown judges, the ones who also judged San Antonio would automatically be qualified under this provision (Ronald Comfort, Albert Lo, John Bell, Jim Sturgeon, Debbie Torchia, Jeff Prosperie, Steve Ulicny). Dave Carbone did Atlanta and San Antonio, so he's qualified as well. I didn't look any further than this most obvious matchup (the shows that had all 20 corps), so don't flame me if I missed anyone.
My prayer is that Prosperie is nowhere near Bloomington for the next two weeks!! His scores were so far out in left field that I hope that he is not even in the State of Indiana. I can live with all the other percussion judges, but that guy missed his boat!!
-
Today the judges for Qs, Semis, and Finals are decided on. The only prerequisite DCI has is that the judge has to have seen the all World Class corps at least twice before finals week.
Should be interesting seeing who the panels will be. I'm sure some of your personal favorites will be among them, Linda.
Tom, what do you know about the judging? Are the same judges used for all 20 corps? Do the same judges that judge quarterfinals also judge the semis and finals?
Just curious.
-
CymbalMom and Linda
They have new pictures posted on madisonscouts.org which have very good shots of the cymbals and guard practicing and performing at Columbus. Check it out.
All you other parents out there, you may see a picture or two of your son. Good shots whoever added them.
-
Sorry, Dan... back issues would make that much driving more than just a time-waster. If I'm staying at a hotel anyways, I may as well stay where it's convenient! Cost is the same either way... $50/night.
You're right about wasting money. Of course, my wife will be sleeping while I will be driving!! But, we hadn't tried to find a motel in Bloomington yet, so the motel in Vincennes was easy to get into. I imagine that Bloomington is pretty booked.
-
10 - Blue Devils
24 - Blue Stars
22 - Bluecoats
30 - Carolina Crown
27 - Crossmen
29 - Madison Scouts (+)
35 - Phantom Regiment (-)
29 - Santa Clara Vanguard
29 - Troopers
-
This is about 2 - 2 1/2 hours out of either Bloomington or Indy. I'm changing my hotel reservations so I'll be in Vincennes until the 7th, and then in Bloomington. No sense in a 5-hour round trip each day.
Oh, come on, Linda. We are making the 2.5 hour trip each day!! My wife wants to watch the practices and then we'll convoy to the stadium.
DCI Judging 101
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Thanks for the link!!