DantheOldMan

Thanks for the link!!

I can imagine. Scoring gets the vexation of many fans, mostly because most of us who don't know how it works or what is being looked at. I know that the judges are really trying to do a good job and be fair and consistent. But, since it is subjective, those of us on the outside still question things when we see irregularities. Some people don't care, but there are some of us who do. So, it is a really an interesting problem. I know enough about percussion to know which drumline is better than the next, and I know which marching routines I like or brass books I like, but it would help us non-experts to know more about the mind of the judge. But, as I said, I may be an anomaly. I know what my son would say: "Dad, just shut up!!"

Your right. But that doesn't explain a spread of 4th and 11th places. I can accept 4th and 6th, but 4th and 11th doesn't work. Yup. My post was addressing scoring before regionals or between regionals. I know all about the recaps. But, the recap just creates more questions. Going again to the San Antonio show, looking at the recaps gives me no reason why the battery was picked 4th by one judge and 11th by the other. I do believe that this thread is called DCI Judging 101 (which means it is a primer). As I said, I would like more information about scoring. I am the paying public, I am not a DCI expert. But, I am a former musician who played music for over 16 years in the 60s and 70s, and marched in college in a Big 10 university in the 70s, who unfortunately didn't have the time or money to march in a DCI corp. When I went to a DCI show in the 80s or 90s, I didn't follow scores, because I didn't care. Now that my son is marching, I don't see the equity in the scoring. I would like it explained. So, if I'm poorly informed, why don't you discuss scoring on this thread that someone set up to talk about scoring and answer my questions. I may be wrong in my conclusions, but I believe this is the place to ask.

Well, Hawkeye, at least I got you talking. I understand that tuning of the drums is on the scoresheet. That has validity for bass drums or tympanies or tenors. I stand corrected as to those drums. (As an old snare drummer, I don't think farther down the line ). All I am asking is should it be an issue for snare? Should a mylar head matter over a Kevlar? If everyone uses Kevlar and just cranks them down, why should it matter? Yes, it is possible for 9 snares to sound cleaner than 7 when the 7 are god-awful, but if you have 9 good snares and 7 comparable snares in another corps, you don't believe that it is easier to keep the 7 clean? Come on! I've been there (back in the dark ages, granted), but the smaller number is easier to keep clean. Is this the chicken or the egg? Now, if you are comparing Pioneer with Blue Devils, you're right. But the corps in the middle seem to get slotted scores. I'm not talking about a regional show, but a show before regionals or between regionals. It just seems to me the scoring cooincidentally seems to follow order of performance. That's my opinion. As to performing in the sun, it made a difference as a parent of a corp member. I would have gotten better pictures when the sun wasn't messing up my shots.

Cymbalmom and Linda Slocum: I know the two of you abhorred the scoring like I did this year. There is a new thread called DCI Judging 101 started by a guy who wrote an article for the DCI website about scoring. I have added my comments to this thread. You should check it out and add your comments as well. Dan edited to fix name of thread.

Michael, I am glad that you opened the floodgates with your article, because one of the biggest issues fans have with DCI is scoring. I am not considering a fan someone who has just seen their first drum corp show, but someone who knows music and marching and can't for the life of them explain why the scoring is so divergent. The problem I have with your article is that it focuses almost entirely on the subjective view of the judge. Is that all judging is? Is it merely one judge's "feelings" about the show? If so, then there is no wonder why so many of us have a problem with scoring. There needs to be objective criteria that a judge looks at. I am sorry, but I have seen individual judges scoring percussionists in high school contests who downgraded one performer because he felt that the drum was not in tune or the field drum should have been on an angle instead of flat. So, percussion judges grading a DCI corp on the tuning of a drum? How absurd!! I may like the sound of mylar heads from the 1980s rather than the kevlar heads from the 2000's. Does a corp get downgraded merely because they chose a different style drum head that one judge doesn't like? There needs to be objectivity in scoring. If there is, then that is what you should focus on for the musicians of the world that wonder how DCI does its scoring. Let me give you an example. Percussion Judge 1 scored Madison Scouts 4th in percussion in San Antonio, but percussion judge 2 in the stands scored them 11th? How does that happen? That is absurd. That is like the Russian Judges of the 1970s in olympics. "Oh, that score was from the Russian judge, so you can ignore it!!" When one percussion judge scores a battery in 4th and another scores them in 11th, there is a problem with the objective criteria used by the judges. It needs to be standardized. Also, you didn't focus on an issue I have had for a long time. What if one corps decides to use 7 snare drummers, but another corps goes with 9? Should both snarelines be judged the same? It is impossible for 9 snare drummers to play as cleanly as 7. It is simply impossible. So, do we standardize the numbers of snare drummers, or does the corps with more snare drummers get a break? Does the percussion judge give extra points to the corps that uses 9 snare drummers versus the corps that uses 7? You are comparing apples and oranges. What about difficulty. What if one corps drumline decides to play a very difficult "book." Does the drumline that plays an easier "book" get a good score if it was played cleanly? Same issue with difficulty for brass. There has to be points given for difficulty. Otherwise, everyone will play "Mary hand a little lamb!" Another issue I have with scoring is performance times. First, I think it is wrong for this year's corps to get a better (or worse) playing time due to the scores of the corps last year. What does last year have to do with it? Plus, you must concede that performing with the sun in your eyes adversely affects you while performing in the dark under the lights is easier. So, the corps that go later get an advantage. Isn't it interesting that the corps performing later get better scores? Also, when corps performance times are based on last year's scores, I am always amazed at how this year's judges score this year's corps in identical order that they placed last year. Don't you think that if the corps pulled a number out of the hat for their performance time and there wasn't a specific order, we wouldn't see judges scoring corps from worse to best as the night goes on? We really wonder if they deserve that score or are really getting that score because of performance time. Yes. I have a lot of issues with scoring. I have suggested elsewhere on this bulletinboard that judges comments should be posted online as well. DCI should post is rules online for everyone to see. I would like to see the rules. DCI needs to adopt a transparency scheme so that people like me can understand a judge's score, because I can look at his or her comments. I may disagree with the score, but I can see what it is based on. I am a lawyer by day (retired musician at night!!) and lawyers simply want people to be accountable. Having a transparency scheme would keep DCI accountable to the people who pay the ticket prices -- the fans. Now, I want to say two things in favor of the judges. I thought that the judges did a good job at finals. I believe that the 12 corps in finals were the 12 best. I would have had Cavaliers in 2nd, but again I can live with 3rd. I definitely agree that Phantom Regiment deserved to win. Also, I know that it is a tough job being a judge. One judge's negative comments can keep a corp out of finals. That is not an easy burden to bear. With finances being tighter for the common man (and woman) who comes to the DCI show, DCI needs to feel the pulse of the public and make its scoring beyond reproach. I would move more to judging based on objective criteria, but we still deal with subjective people in the end. So, I understand it is a hard job. Those are my comments on a very difficult topic.

I think Madison was 19th on June 28th, but finished 12th. That's 7 spots in one season. However, nice season Blue Stars. The additions made to the show were great. I enjoyed the show very much.

Since I was one of the people who was very vocal against Jeff Prosperie, I wanted to point out that he had the Scouts in 11th place for percussion on August 9th at finals. Just thought that was interesting.

Great points!!

I don't know what the Cavies did, but the Madison Scouts (and presumably other corps) in the parking lot (since Madison's buses were first) started applauding PR as they walked by. Drum corps are one big brotherhood/sisterhood!!

I saw PR's show for the first time on June 21st in Rockford, and I didn't like it. It left me dry. But, as you said, they made many little changes since then. They really sold the show. I honestly didn't like the "abusive" treatment of the "slaves" but again they were selling the show. Coming onto the field the way they did was genius. They sold it to us before the show started. Will Pitts on his "throne." The slaves in chains. The Goose stepping horns. They sold it. But, to me, the final sales job was Will Pitts lying "dead" while announcing the scores. Genius. I didn't like PR's show on June 21st, but I loved it on August 9th! I too cheered when BD was announced in second. Good Job PR.

I am a parent of a Madison Scout, so naturally I was glad the Scouts came in 12th. Personally, I believe that the Colts improved greatly and should have jumped over the Crossmen in the semifinals. I liked the Colts show, but am not certain that it was a top 12 show. That's my opinion. I think the Colts should have more movement while playing. Too much standing while playing. The Scouts' entire show was marched at 180-200 beats per minute, with almost no standing still. I would also get rid of the baton twirler -- too marching band for me. But, I thought the Colts had a great show. On a side-bar, I thought the Colts show was more deserving of finals that Blue Knights, but that is my opinion again. I didn't like BK's show at all. Other than that, I thought that all the top 12 shows were well done. I feel for the Colts and know that they worked very hard. It is unfortunate that anyone has to sit out on Saturday night.

The drummajor laying dead was an excellent part of the night, especially since the assistant drummajors didn't stand up front. PR rocked at that show!!

I just wanted to add my congratulations to Phantom Regiment. My son is a Madison Scout, but we were really pulling for PR. Funny thing is that I saw PR's show in Rockford on June 21st, and I didn't like it. PR's show got better and better all summer, and by the end I really liked it. Great show PR. You deserved to win!!

Yeah, it was 12th place, but considering the year they had (and considering last year), we were all excited about 12th!! (Next year they will move up!) But, being in 12th, they got to set the tone for finals on Saturday. The man in back of us at finals (who knew we were Scouts fans) said after the Scouts performance "How do you get any better than that?" I think that was a great comment on the show. By the way, it was a big crown when the Scouts performed. Home side of stadium was almost full. After hearing all the shows on Saturday night, I came away with one conclusion: The Scouts belonged in the top 12. That was no gift. They deserved to be there. Next year, watch out.