Stu
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Posts posted by Stu
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5 hours ago, MikeD said:
Actually, it may or may not happen. The parents can apply for a waiver. The LL admin in Williamsport makes the call. Of course, if the parents move to Honolulu there is no issue. The kid would automatically play for the Honolulu team.
If the Honolulu team approached them, or lured them, or enticed them to move, nope the kid would not be allowed to play. See what happened to, I think, Jesuit High School in Dallas, TX where they were actually finding parents of great football players from out of state jobs in the Dallas area to help them move.
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13 hours ago, ftwdrummer said:
(Emphasis added.)
That...wasn't what we were discussing, but ok
In principle, not wrong...but I'm now curious as to how you feel about free agency as a concept.
Within a body of competing teams, Free Agency, just like Free Market, should be balanced with reasonable team to team parity rules in order to keep one team, or one company, from overly dominating over all others. It is within that harmony where the true spirit of competitive growth arises. It also keeps a low financial area team competitive with a high financial area team like one from the silicon valley. So, here is my opinion on how the concept of Free Agency should be applied as an equitable system within DCI:
A) Youth who have never performed in DCI are free to audition for any corps prior to the begining of the season. Unrestricted Free Agency.
B) At the end of the season any youth who performed that year with an OC corps is free to audition for any WC corps. And any youth who performed with a WC corps is free to audition for any OC corps. Unrestricted Free Agency.
C) At the end of the season any youth who performed with an OC corps transfers to perform with another OC corps the very next season, or any youth who performed with a WC corps transfers to perform with another WC corps the very next season, the receiving corps of that transfer should pay the former corps some sort of fee transfer compensation. (Or the performer can set out a season and transfer without fee compensation). Restricted Free Agency.
This would make sure that organizations are detered from pilfering talent from other 'directly competitive organizations' within their division, and also make sure their own success is more self-built than from acquired talent developed from the labors of other organizations.
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1 minute ago, ftwdrummer said:
(Emphasis added.)
That...wasn't what we were discussing, but ok
In principle, not wrong...but I'm now curious as to how you feel about free agency as a concept.
I need some sleep or I will fall asleep in church and get whacked by my wife, so I will fully answer this after I get out of church. But here is a teaser: Because of the way team owners treated players in the past I am for free agency as long as....
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1 hour ago, ftwdrummer said:
If only there were a difference between Little League and DCI...some sort of difference in maturity level of the participants...some sort of age difference, maybe?
I fail to see how the rules set out for 12 year olds in a sport that they play during the school year should have any impact on how we regard the rules for what high school and college kids do in the summer.
Also, you may want to look into AAU basketball, in which players switch teams much the way DCI participants do.
I would venture to say that in the grand scheme of the real world, the Little League World Series is way more important, serious, impactful, significant, earnest, et al than DCI even dreams of being. One tell tail sign is how many fake birth certificates are attempted to be slipped by DCI compared to the Little League? That answer alone will show the real world experience impact.
And I did look into not only the AAU, but the NCAA, and a multitude of state high school associations. The athletic transfer issue is extremely problematic with wide spread cheating and corruption. Like I stated in another post, in most cases I am for academic freedom of choice. But in the case of athletic competition, where equibility is paramount for fair engagement, enrollment and recruitment rules need to be strict.
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1 hour ago, AlexL said:
Its funny you cite the NCAA, when if anything the NCAA is moving on a trend-line where players have more flexibility to transfer. Wouldnt surprise me if the transfer restrictions go away entirely within the next 10-15 years.
Don't get me wrong, of course it sucks for the corps that loses a kid to a higher scoring corps. But when the kids only have a few years of eligibility and are paying thousands of dollars a year (as opposed to being given tens of thousands in scholarships, housing, training, etc) , it makes no sense to restrict them. Especially since there are a myriad of reasons one may want to change corps- they may want a different style of show, they may want a different staff (or to follow staff who changed corps), or they may want to take on a different skill level and be educated at a level that the corps theyre leaving may never be able to teach (And that isnt a bash on the corps that is being left. Every corps has its talent pool level and has to target its education towards that).
In a vacuum, this would be about freedom of choice. Transferring for athletic reasons would be no different than any other student who moves for any other reason: academics, friendships, etc. Which in a vacuum I am completely for. But this is not a vacuum.
Highly competitive team activites are different. You have to have all of the teams which are under the same governing body playing by strict enrollment and recruitment rules in order to have equitable competition.
That doesn’t happen to nearly the same degree level in academics like math, science, or even speech-debate. Granted, there are competive elements in those academic events, but not to the impactful degree prodiced by athletic team events.
And DCI is way, way closer to athletic team sports than an academic math club competition.
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16 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:
on principle, i aim to cancel your subscriptions
Read the chapter, then make your decision. You might be surprised!
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1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:
so per Stu, if a kid has a bad experience and wants to go elsewhere, he has to stay or sit out a year? Horse ####
Aw shucks; here I am competing in the Little League World Series. I am hating they way the batting coach is treating me here at Peachtree, I am having a bad experience, my self esteem and feelings are getting hurt; so I will just transfer for my final season to the Honolulu team where I will be more appreciated and happy as player there. Ummmm.... Not going to be allowed to happen.
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1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:
it's a dog eat dog world, and Madison's last 15 years have basically had them wearing milk bone underwear
The true essence of competition is not dog eat dog. That is a perversion. Pick up the book Inner Game of Tennis by Timothy Gallwey, and read the chapter on the meaning of competition. I subscribe to that very notion.
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45 minutes ago, adman said:
.... The best way to retain members is to create high perceived value. Whether that value is being competitive, being inventive, being renown for a particular caption, or something else - value attractiveness will get and keep players.....
Now back to my original post - What is going on with Madison?...You have actually answered your own question with the preceeding statement. What is going on with Madison is that they are not providing those things.
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42 minutes ago, adman said:
... Drum Corps is at best an esoteric diversion directed to a target audience of ex-members, current members, future members, music educators, and allied trades. It isn't big enough outside that universe to have people care who is going where.....
Now this is one of the most profound and true statements posted on DCP in many years!!!!!!!!
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4 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:
Until DCI starts generating multi-million dollar profits with top tier student talent getting free rides to college and other undisclosed perks, you can’t compare it to NCAA Division I athletics.
Ok, compare it to Little League Baseball, which has the same non profit desognation as DCI, but also has transfer rules and regulations like academic sports.
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21 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:
"Carla was the prom queen." - Stanley Goodspeed (Nicolas Cage) in response.
(Sometimes the people who say they'll do their best are in fact the winners.)
The point, also indicated in the movie, is that by definition winning is doing the best, not just doing 'your' best, but doing 'the' best. Loosers try, and are happy that they tried; but winners both try and win, and they hate trying and losing.
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15 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:
You’re essentially arguing in support of holding kids hostage at the first world class corps they’re accepted to and not letting them just march where they want to march.
It would create all sorts of unnecessary drama. If kids want to move on, let them. The alternative would just result in a handful of “super open class” corps that smoke half of world class every year.
Nope, not held hostage. Just a delay in the name of competitive equibility and fairness; sort of like the necessary rule of transfering from playing for number 16 Texas A&M to playing for number 1 Clemson.
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19 minutes ago, dcsnare93 said:
People move on to different corps for a variety of reasons. I did, because I wanted to be challenged, have different experiences, and be a part of an organization that was a better culture fit. Last I checked, members pay for the privilege to play. The experience they get out of that time and investment is just as important. No one should feel obligated to march with one corps out of some misguided sense of loyalty.
You are not factoring in that this is actually an organization for youth competition not education. Last I checked, the DCI non profit status says nothing about being an actual educational organization with an educational exemption, but is listed as a youth competitive league like the Little League World Series. And with competition, rules which benifit equibility of recruitment and retention amongst the various teams must be maintained.
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2 hours ago, Chief Guns said:
Could you imagine the nuclear fallout on DCP if BD was to fall from grace, struggle to make finals than cry for a redshirt program to retain the members they have?
Currently they would fight against it. Much of their success over the years has come from the members recieving experience at other WC corps which were used as stepping stools. By the way, it is well known on DCP how much I despised the G7 proposal, co-authored by BD, which would have relegated most all other WC corps even farther into becoming feeders for the 7.
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22 minutes ago, tedrick said:
we are a society of free agents - in this social media era, we watch and see what groups are the best right now and if we are not with that group we want to leave and join that group -- we have no loyalty -- we only want to be the best group and chase the ring -- young people are affluent enough to fly to audition camps -- why would they be loyal to a corps that is within driving distance?
Madison and Phantom are the victims of young people having available options -- why march a corps that isn't very good when you can go march a top 6 corps -- why stay with a corps while you're trying to climb the ladder?
In the end it will come down to money - why did 27th Lancers die? Why are Bluecoats ascendant? A very positive and uplifting alumni group and money.
Winning does have meaning, and it tastes extremely well!! But how it was accomplished has deeper meaning.
We have developed a culture of self centered, immediate gratification, no loyality to anyone or anything other than self promotion, riding on the sacraficial backs of others who got the organization there in the first place, all for a chunk of medal and a ring; and lost the nobility of working together to build something great not only for yourself but especially for others, as in this is our corps, our brotherhood/sisterhood, from cradle to grave, with delayed gratification in order to make something greater than ourselves.
Yep, that I will give ya as being true.
Oh, and Go Mandarins!!! They, at least for now, seem to be the most loyal!!
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1 hour ago, JeffreyJK68 said:
They need to stop having vague fluffy goals, like “we’re developing leaders” or “we’re just out to please the crowd”. Both of those sound admirable, but are not measurable. I say put those as byproducts, but make your top goal winning. The current admin brags that the Scouts are unique in building leaders....which Corp does not build leaders??? You’re telling me that the winningest Corps - the Blue Devils - is not building leaders? They are at least partially focused on winning and that doesn’t seem to be hindering them from training excellent youth! So Madison admin....please put more priority on building a top tier program....Because you tend to get what you aim for in life. If you say scores and placements don’t matter, you’re not aiming for anything tangible or specific.. Scott Stewart never liked to admit it, but when scores and placements were at least part of his focus, and the Corps scored a lot higher, crowd appeal was higher. Because crowds tend to react positively to high achievement......Remember that 95 show? Probably one of their cleanest ensembles ever!
"Losers always whine about doing their best. Winners go home and f### the prom queen." - John Mason (Sean Connery) from the movie The Rock.
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1 hour ago, BozzlyB said:
Where was your call for this lil red shirt program when Scouts were top 5 and corps like Colts were losing members to them hand over fist. Madison has to do the hard work of being a competitively desirable drum corps to march in again, and the game shouldn't be changed just because they're the corps in the tough spot.
Where was my call? Well BB I have believed in this for a very long time, but, um, back then there was no internet nor DCP. It irritated me even more that loyality was starting to really wane as the new millennium came where both performers and staff were using mid to lower placing Div 1 corps as springboards to what became the World Class G7 corps.
And if you do some digging you will see that I have advocated for something like this ever since joining DCP in 2010. Including blasting the G7 for their condescending attitude and praising not only the Scouts but many other corps including the Colts! And my favorite current corps is the Mandarins!!! All I care about is the equibility within competition, the same in which all other major competitive organizations have seen as a necessity to put in place.
So pay your overdue phone bill and call someone else out who is actually guilty.
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1 hour ago, queenanne_1536 said:
You're right - talent is absolutely part of the problem. They are a feeder corps now. People go there to get a year or two under their belt in World Class then move on, unfortunately.
Since this is a competitive environment I have no issues with Open Class being utilized as a feeder system. However, since this is a competitive environment I have a huge issue with World Class corps being used as feeders. That is why I am for some sort of a World Class to World Class red-shirt type system.
Academic sports won't allow NCAA Div I players to direct transfer year to year without a penilty, and major league sports have a waiting period before free agency is allowed.
Perform one year with (open class corps) then go to Blue Devils; fine. Perform one year with Madison and desire to go to Blue Devils, do the next year with (open class corps) or sit out a year, then go to Blue Devils.
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2 minutes ago, Brian Tuma said:
I’m curious why. Please explain. Why would this show have been DQ’d in 1999?
Electronics.
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1 hour ago, oldbandguy said:
I'm sure there's some of each going on and it is constantly changing. There are some shows that I think the majority of "knowledgeable" fans can correctly say "that show design is really great" or "that show design is really bad." A well designed show, IMHO, gives the performers a chance to allow their individual talent levels a better chance for success...if success is defined as score/placement. A well designed show STILL relies on great performers! A poorly designed show will not reach that same level of success even if the members are very talented and are executing what they have well.
There was a time when the main elements in great show design were great music arrangements and great drill writing. A combination of those two could create great GE. It goes MUCH further than that today. Those two alone will not get you near the top. Some may argue that is not a good thing, but it is what it is.
I can remember going through critique back in the eighties and nineties all season, and as long as some things were changed according to judging comments our tenacity for sticking to our guns on other things eventually changed judges minds and were well rewarded by the end. That changing the judges minds through tenacity of not yielding is what seems to not be happining today.
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10 minutes ago, oldbandguy said:
The face to face IS still happening and I have observed, this year, corps staff "selling their shows" to the judges, but your "product" has to be QUALITY design to have any impact on the judges. From my point of view it is THE DESIGNERS that are driving the bus...more so than the judges. A poorly designed show is NOT going to win over any judge.
Who decides what is poor? The designers or the judges? I can remember going through critique back in the eighties and nineties all season, and as long as some things were changed according to judging comments our tenacity for sticking to our guns on other things were eventually changed judges minds and well rewarded by the end.
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5 minutes ago, Lead said:
This is patently false. There is still critique.
I have already acknowledged my error.
But my question still stands: concerning what happened to the give and take compromise where design staff changed some things to accommodate the judges, and the judges were moved in other areas by discussion from the staff? When did pleasing the judges become where the judges are in 'complete' control?
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10 minutes ago, Ghost said:
If I ride Big Bird, it would have three wheels instead of two.
The vision of 'riding Big Bird' just gave me a new view of Seseme Street which is now going to taint my thoughts from this point forward. Thanks!!
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What happened to Madison?
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted · Edited by Stu
If the adult staff gets the corps to the gate too late and a timing penilty arises, it is the youth who suffer the scoring penilty not the staff. Correct? So students do suffer as a part of competition; and that suffering is also a vital part of the learning process. And if you read my post on unrestricted and restricted free agency, if another corps wants a talented youth from that corps, or a youth wants to transfer for the next season, it can happen.