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Stu

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Posts posted by Stu

    Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    11 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

    the coordinators and caption heads watch for trends. with competition suite, they can go in and listen to a recording from anywhere. if they see a disturbing score, or get a communication from a corps concerning a score/recording, they're doing some research. Listening to the recording. getting feedback from the corps. talking to the judge themselves. 

     

    last year....Boston won Thursday and Friday in guard....but not Saturday. well now, odd? correct? Maybe, not a guard expert. Some people say yes, some people say no. i'm sure the person in charge of the guard sheet asked some questions.

     

    however after that research, if the recording backs up the score as well as the judge can account for their actions, yeah they will get backed up.

    Now it could affect end of the year assignments.....but you have seen stuff like this all the time. the year Crown won...percussion was scoring in the 6th range consistently all year when up against everyone. Semis...boom up to 4th, beating corps they lost to all year, and thus creating a far bigger spread against BD than there had been? In fact changing the results from the night before? Think that judge wasn't grilled that night? ( I can't remember the name, but i honestly don't remember it being a name that i have heard of since).

    Had to read it all, but the last line, the one I put in bold, actually answers my question.

    Justice Dep't Reviewing Music Licensing Decrees

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted · Edited by Stu

    On 6/7/2019 at 4:00 PM, Jeff Ream said:

    i'm not going down the politics road. However, a high school band, trying to host a competition as a fundraiser, will now have to get the information from every band attending and then have to pay a fee for that?

     

    some fundraiser. more like a way to kill the competitive marching band activity

    I am a member of ASCAP. And ASCAP realizes it would be way too cumbersome for venues to research every song performed. So ASCAP does not grant licenses to perform individual songs. Rather, ASCAP offers blanket licenses that authorize the public performance of the entire ASCAP library. It is the framed or posted license you see on the wall at bars, clubs, etc. That blanket license is all that the host of a band competition needs. Which should have already been secured by the host school anyway because of the Copyrighted music being played at ticket-purchased sports events where bands play at halftime and recorded music is played over the loud speaker systems.  Here is a link:

    https://www.ascap.com/help/ascap-licensing

     

    Justice Dep't Reviewing Music Licensing Decrees

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    1 hour ago, garfield said:

    Here’s a thing: every stadium where every drum corps show, forever, was held is recorded in the legacy files of DCI’s backroom storage.  It would be a relatively simple matter to go back in time and total up the number of venues that did not pay performance fees. 

     In my opinion, that would bring a death knell to the notion of a high school ever leasing it’s stadium to drum corps ever again. 

    Say, average 150 shows per season since 1972?  Big payday for licensers, and a back-breaker for DCI ,  IMO. 

    It’s easy to say “they should have”, but was there ever any realistic expectation for venue operators in history to know that a performance fee was due?

    I am not advocating collecting retroactively; I am advocating that the required fees are paid going forward.

    And yes, it is realistic to have expected venue operators and show coordinators in the past to have researched what was the legal protocol and follow it in order to promote live performances where monetary transactions were taking place. In fact, many many many years ago I brought this up with a band booster and their response was ASCAP will not care due to it being a small marching band event. So many knew, they just let it slide.

    Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted · Edited by Stu

    17 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

    no, it's not. I'll say it louder:

     

    THE GOAL IS FOR EVERY JUDGE TO JUDGE THEIR SHEET ONLY AND TO RANK AND RATE AS THEY SEE IT.

    And every judging coordinator will back their call unless there's a huge discrepancy between the commentary and the number

    So.... if all but one established Music GE judges are commenting in the same manner ("This music conveys the show design GE very well, is wonderfully dark, balanced, controlled dynamics, not overbearingly FFF") ; all but one scoring the corps in the same manner (say 0.2 of each other as scores increase during the season), and all but one is ranking the corps in the same manner (placing the corps 1st in Music GE) It is actually ok, fine, acceptable, encouraged, and supported for that other Music GE judge to have a vastly different take as long as the comments are backed up such as  ("The GE here is supposed to be Hot Jazz, it should be bright, sort of raspy, 8va tpts, improv solos, occasional FFF moments"); along with scoring the corps well below the other judges all season  and ranking the corps 5th in Music GE.  With that in mind, every judging coordinator will back that judge's call as long as that judge can back up the comments, score, and ranking. Correct?

    Or.... would the sanctioning body seek to train all judges to view excellent Music GE as wonderfully dark, balanced, controlled dynamics, not overbearingly FFF (ie clones in GE interp); and if the rogue judge did not conform to that interp that judge would be told bye-bye?

    Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    14 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

    are both judges looking at the exact same thing at the exact same time? If not, then well, yes you can get differences. you'll never get every single judge to share the exact same wavelength.

    That is why when two are adjudicating the same caption with the same sheets adding together and dividing by two yields a more fair score. But the ultimate  "goal" of the training and experience is to get the exact same rating and exact same ranking from both judges.

    Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    27 minutes ago, MikeD said:

    I do not really agree that all corps are trying to produce the exact same sound. There is a ‘BD sound’, a ‘Crown sound’, ‘Coats sound’, etc...

    Aa for comparing orchestra sounds...a symphony orchestra is not competing against other groups. Each is a unique entity that is molded by the conductor.

    Also, they have s wider palette  of instruments available to the conductor in creating their desired sound, so a variety of timbres is inevitable based on the director’s preference in sound.

     

    I am not advocating going backwards with G bugles, so a17 please don't think that is what I mean. But there was a time where each corps had their own very unique distinct sound. Within seconds of listening to a recording anyone could pinpoint "that is Madison" or "that is Regiment" or "that is SCV". One was Dark, another was Bright, one was Raspy, another was Loud, and yet another was Controlled... All were distict identies to each corps. However, the current sound from corps to corps is very homogenized; likely due to the staff jumping from corps to corps combined with like minded interp of sheet criteria.

    Justice Dep't Reviewing Music Licensing Decrees

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    2 hours ago, OldSnareDrummer said:

    Well, my feeble old mind is more confused than ever on all of this, so I'll just let things fall where they do and just be thankful I have music to listen before some bureaucrat comes along and fines me for whistling Zippety Doo Dah without a license. 

    Here is a bit of irony. The movie which features that song is no longer distributed nor available in the United States.

    Justice Dep't Reviewing Music Licensing Decrees

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted · Edited by Stu

    4 hours ago, CrownBariDad said:

    Item #2:  A performing ensemble doing their own arrangement of a copyrighted work needs permission to arrange which might involve a fee and permission to perform which also might involve a fee. (Ignoring that can of worms called sync rights if the performance is recorded/broadcast).  It seems to me (not a lawyer), they are covered just like they have been in the past. I'm not aware of the venue needing ASCAP/BMI permission to put on the performance.

    But, I could be wrong. 

    While I make no legal claims, I am someone who has done this professionally for many years. Not only in marching arts, but in clubs with rock, country, and jazz groups.

    If there is a custom arrangement produced and distributed, the person in charge of the performing ensemble is responsible to seek permission to arrange from the Copyright Holder and pay any permission fees. However, if published sheet music is purchased and used without alteration, or a rock band does a cover from ear, no extra fee applies. But what about perfomamce?

    Public performances of Copyrighted music at live music venues, with limited exceptions, do require performance payment. However, it is the responsibility of the venue owner or show promoter, not the performing ensemble, to obtain a public performance license and pay any required licensing fees.

    Typically, venue owners of bars, clubs, stadiums, etc. obtain blanket licenses from the performing rights organizations (ASCAP, BMI, etc) so as to have the permission to produce musical performances of covers like rock, country, jazz, etc. at their venues. So, I tell my music clients to make sure that either the venue owner or show promoter has secured the performing license and paid the applicable fee or to not perform at that venue. Most bars, clubs, etc. will have it framed on the wall. And of course DCI, BOA, and WGI do secure the performance rights for their sanctioned events. However...

    Many times local high schools who put on local contests promoted by their band boosters do not secure the proper performance liscensing; even though they are supposed to secure that performance permission. My gut tells me they are so insignificant to the liscinsing entities it would be futile for the Copyright investigators to research, but again I am not an attorney. Nevertheless...

    I have worked with school marching bands engaging with BOA and WGI who have secured their own performance permission just for the set number of local contests they will attend.

    Justice Dep't Reviewing Music Licensing Decrees

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted · Edited by Stu

    Here are a couple of questions for all, but especially for Gar.

    1) If a band or a group of bands (rock, punk, country, marching bands, no matter the genera) perform at scholastic stadiums; and each concert venue is secured, as well as promoted, by local people, and money is exchanged at the venues which benifit both the bands and the local promotors; who should pay the fee to hold a performance at each venue?

    2) Since scholastic stadiums do hold public paying events in which Copyrighted music is played, shouldn't they fall under the same venue performance fees as bars, clubs, etc which are also venues holding live music events?

    Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    44 minutes ago, hughesmr said:

    Execution/content captions scored by qualified judges, GE scored solely by the audience in attendance via remote smartphone technology

    Making sure corps are connecting with the audience is vital; we certainly want them on their feet, shouting and clapping with overwhelming joy, and packing the stands at the oil can stadium.. And giving the fans a sense of ownership is intriguing. While I do find the notion intetesting, here are two points I would like to see you address.

    1) While the parent of a child in corps ABC, or an alum of that corps, might hoop and hollar for many other corps, wouldn't they most likely still vote for their own corps irrespective of being more engaged with another corps?

    2) Judges are partly held accountable against bias because we can see their names and what scores they give. The audience would have anonymity. Wouldn't that anonymity support voting out of personal bias instead of actual corps engagement?

     

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    Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted · Edited by Stu

    49 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

    um no. the judges are told to judge their sheet and their sheet only, rank, then rate. if scores do stay tight it's because they can go back and change them, usually because they may have put up a bigger or smaller spread in a sub box than they wanted, and in several cases on big shows, they want to avoid bottom line ties

    What you state here is true; but that is not the fluctuation I am referring to.

    If for some reason two or more music judges are at the exact same show, 'and judging the exact same music sheet' at the exact same time, the ultimate goal is for both of them to come to the exact same conclusion, with the exact same caption score, and the exact same caption ranking for that specific show. They should both exhibit the exact same opinion on the exact same caption being adjudicated. That is part of what training and trial judging is designed to do in order to help newbies conform (also true).

    So, the fluctuation I am referring to comes from human perception differences. That type of fluctuation from judge to judge within DCI is not by design; and any judge who exhibits too much variation from the rest of the pack (even if the variation is justified) will be told bye-bye.

    Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

    then fault the corps and offer to assist in designing new sheets. bringing in a name with no experience in the activity to throw out a number invites chaos as mentioned previously.

     

    Now just tapes for feedback, advice etc....sure. but not in any way tied to scoring.

    Again, stop with the false representation of throwing out chaotic numbers by some name. That is nowhere near what I am proposing. I appreciate honest debate on what is presented, but again please stop misconstruing what I am proposing.

    Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    53 minutes ago, MikeD said:

    The sheets and criteria used for evaluations were created by the corps themselves, staffs and admins, with judge input, for sure. For that reason, they are good for those most impacted, the corps being evaluated. 

    Throwing "qualified professionals" from other genres of music and/or dance into judging who have no background in marching music, and no idea how to rank and rate the corps, is looking to create chaos, IMO. How do they know how to award numbers for each subcaption? How do they know what to look for? Using their own background and trying to relate it to marching/music experience is just apples and oranges, IMO.

    Having said that, I do think that having those type of folks create tapes and talk about how the shows/performance appear to them is absolutely a great idea, but not as part of the adjudication process.

     

    But the current drum corps adjudicating system does not leave much room for diversity of sound, either corps to corps or genera to genera. There are subtle differences, that is true, but not major diversity like in other generas. For example...

    In the professional world of Jazz, the Smoking Section sounds vastly different than the Harry Conick Jr. Band. In the professional world of Symphony, the Chicago Symphony sounds different than the London Symphony. Even when these Jazz or Symphonic ensembles are playing the exact same compositions with the exact same instrumentation. Same applies to the professional worlds of Rock, Country, Funk, etc.

    However, in Drum Corps, the criteria for qualitative Music GE is so strictly defined by the corps design staff that every corps now attempts to produce the exact same musical presentation of sound; no matter the genera; no matter the corps idenity. Again there are some subtle differences, but everyone strives for that Crown, BD, SCV winning sound.

    Blowing out the current system; having a diverse number of non drum corps professionals write the sheets, define the criteria, be in charge of judge's training, and then judging the ensembles would more than likely bring forth way more diversity of musical production and corps sound idenity. All the while they are using the same instrumentation. Just like it is in the professional world.

    Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted · Edited by Stu

    6 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

    I think you need to understand the judges training process. I know people recently certified and working, and it's nothing as you claim it to be

     

    oh and it's dumping not tumping

    Judges are trained to interpret the sheets in the exact same manner, to define criteria in the exact same manner, to view each corps in the exact same manner, with the desired result being no matter who the judge is at any particular show the caption score should be exactly the same. Trial judging attempts to place that training into a real show situation. And if there is a judge who has a different interp than others on say the Music GE produced by a particular corps, even if that judge can justify the interp, that judge has to conform and score like all other judges in that caption or be weeded out.

    I get why; it is for competitive consistency. But what I would like to see is outside professionals working in the real world of professional music write the sheets, define the criteria, and train as judges.

    Justice Dep't Reviewing Music Licensing Decrees

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    Personally I am for these three things:

    1) For a time set by congress, ownership of a creatve work, including performance rights, shall be exclusive (Copyright). Other than item 3, this is the only place Government should have a role in the situation.

    2) Free Market Commerce. By the way, those barking about Monopoly take note. The creative artists are not forced into handing over their print and arranging rights to various Publishers, nor thier performance rights over to ASCAP/BMI.

    3) With the exception of arbitrating disputes, the Govenment should stay completely out of Free Market Commerce decisions.

    Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted · Edited by Stu

    1 hour ago, OldSnareDrummer said:

    Apologies if my reaction (the American Idol one) seemed like a slam. It was really just an exaggerated  albeit sarcastic disagreement.  Maybe some mix of the two - traditional and independent would be a compromise. I could come on board with  Test it in Open Class for a year and see what happens. I dunno....just spitballin'. 

    I do not blame you. It was a single comment, and making sure it is not American Idolish is a legit concern. What riled me, without making this personal, was the GD comment and other falsehoods, mainly by the same poster, who went way off the rails in that direction. And after I pointed out the falsehoods as BS a snarky response was all that was returned. I apparently was tumping over the established judging apple cart and inaccurate gut reactions spewed forth.

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    Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    2 hours ago, acolli17 said:

    I think it would be cool to see a section of true improv - let the musicians get creative so it's not the exact same every night. One of the big criticisms of drum corps that I've heard from my non-marching-oriented musician friends is that it's not true musicality because it's so planned and directed, down to the slightest detail. I know it'd be taking a risk, but if we truly want to show the musicianship of the marching members, maybe that's a way to do it?

    Letting loose with improve, to me, is a great idea. Let the musicinship shine!!!  But I think it would only work well with music that is designed for that type of exploration (jazz, funk, prog-rock, etc). Strict Symphonic and Concert Band music, unless creativly arranged as jazz, might not translate well with improv.

    Let's Play A Game - You Can Only Go Forward

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted · Edited by Stu

    3 hours ago, FTNK said:

    Man this thread became a cluster#### even faster than normal

     

    2 hours ago, acolli17 said:

    Me, not checking on the thread I started, and coming back to it a few days later -

    We were asked for brain-storming ideas that have not been done before. Sounded sort of fun and innocuous.

    So, in my posts I advocated for experienced professionals outside of drum corps, not iconic 'names' nor no-talent rich spoiled popstars, to be secured as adjudicators.  I even clarified that with multiple posts. I also advocated that they all use specific judging sheet criteria; albeit with a revamped judging system and sheet criteria which is set forth by the professional judges who have vast experience in the professional world.

    However, instead of honest evaluation of the idea, or other new ideas being presented, which would have been great, the cluster### flames began. What was thrown back by those who disagreed were posts like: OMG Stu is wanting American Idol, just 'names', GD non talented folks who know nothing about drum corps, and other falsehoods about the proposed idea. And when I called BS on the falsehoods the response was that it was my proposal which was BS.

    Anyway, so goes DCP.

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