jasgre2000
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Posts posted by jasgre2000
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if you want parity, then make it a paid activity. If corps B wants to move up, like any other sport, they could buy out several great lead trumpets or a center snare from one of the top groups. If this happened like sports, you could buy a great team, ala Yankees.
It's a youth activity, so when top kids have the option to take their talents elsewhere, they typically are leaving 12-20 and going to 1-6 at some point. Not going to change anytime soon unless the present model gets reinvented. No different than picking a college for a music degree and its why a school like Indiana and UNT have tons of trumpets audition, while the smaller schools only have a handful. Its human nature to want to go be a part of the best. At least if you are truly motivated to be great in life.
And where is the money for that going to come from?
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Third: I absolutely think WC status should only be awarded to the top 17 every year the way it used to work with quarter finals. Maybe that was a bad idea from a financial stand point, and maybe you restructure open class fees/rules/payouts to make it attractive to everyone that isn't WC. I don't know.
Why not implement promotion and relegation, like the European soccer leagues:
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Of the 43 remaining active DCI corps this season (in Open and World), California has 11 of them.
Literally a quarter of DCI is in California now. And to think, there have been at least a half-dozen MORE California corps that have come and gone in the past decade (Fever, Incognito, Esperanza, Mystikal, Alliance...)
This is a state with horribly funded schools, arts programs being razed like wheat, and high cost of living. How come DCI is (relatively) thriving?
My belief: drum corps is basically a "regional" system out here. Many of the CA corps do not do a full tour; some don't leave the state at all. Yet the state still has what is basically a three-week tour in June/July.
DCI's survival will require at least a PARTIAL back-tracking to the "regional" schedules of decades pasts, where corps maybe only cover 1/4 or 1/3 the country before Finals. All corps shows like San Antonio, Atlanta, and Allentown need to be gotten rid of (meaning, get rid of the "all corps" requirement). I would be perfectly fine with DCI World Prelims on Wednesday night being the first time all year all the corps are competing together.
I understand DCI's drive towards visibility and applaud their efforts to get the activity out there... but the current model just is not sustainable. Reality is going to triumph; you can work with it or fight against it, but it's going to win.
I agree with this, but I do think there needs to be room for the top corps to compete against each other before finals. I don't really understand why people disliked the TOC idea, but I think it makes perfect sense. Regionalize, and then have the top 8 corps from the previous years finals invited to special TOC shows in each region. Watering down shows by preventing the top corps from meeting together is not the way to grow the business.
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Found three in about 5 minutes (thanks, Google).
Boston Celtics - 16 in 30 years (56-86)
UNC women's soccer - 20 in 29 years (82-09)
Manchester United (EPL soccer) - 12 in 20 years (92-12)
Many more examples in the lower-profile college sports, especially below Div I. The comparison between DCI and sports programs is probably better suited for college/HS than professional, even though it's touted as the major leagues. Drum corps has no draft to evenly distribute talent (and it shouldn't), and neither does college athletics. Kids choose where they go and play, based on a variety of factors, just like DC.
In the past 50 years, only about 15 (out of 120) D1A college football teams have won national championships. Being top heavy is certainly not unprecedented or unhealthy. In fact, it is quite common.
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There really is a simple answer to why there are financial problems with some corps ... THE ECONOMY SUCKS. DCI is not unique in their problems. Nearly every similar organization, with the exception of the NFL, is having a hard time right now. Weather the storm, and things will get better.
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4-There is no real competition in DCI.
Okay this might cause the most controvesary because I'm going to get tons of examples were corps A only beat corps B by 9/10's or how each years theres movement and this year the Cavaliers will finish outside the top 4 for the first time in decades. Sure all true, but what chance does the Colts, or Crossmen or even the Academy have of winning. I'm talking about finishing 12 this year and winning next year. NON, ZERO ZIP NADA. Only in DCI is that not possible. In baseball you get worst to first, baseball, heck even tennis once in a while but never DCI. But in DCI the top 12 run things. Maybe thats way theres been so little movement in the top 7. The major leagues want parity. It creates more competition. Who wants to see every football game win 35 to 7. But thats what we get with each show. If I see a line up of Cadets, Bluecoats, Crossmen, Surf I'll get the right order of finish 9.5 out of 10 each time. I bet most fans can pick the right order of finish for the next 10 shows, no real competition.
Signed Carolina Crown.
It doesn't happen overnight, but Crown has proved that you can go from 16th to 10th to 7th to 4th to 2nd . . . in a handful of years. The idea that corps are locked into certain positions, never to move up or down, is just not true. Corps can get better, and corps can get worse.
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1B Change the pay rate. Everyone gets the same amount for each show. But there are placement awards. I don't know what each corps get but how can a smaller corps compete with a corps that earns X amount more then they do. Please don't say it cost more to run Cavaliers then it does Legend. They both have cost that need to be met. Legends is in a more picarious (sic) situation becuase they don't have the alumni to help or souvie sales.
. . . .
3- Advertise, advertise, advertise
Stop preaching to the chiors. In the 30 plus years there been a show in West Chester PA I think I've seen maybe 3 ads in the local paper here in Wilmington DE about 20 mins away. Never any TV or radio ads. But since the shows are usually sold out theres no need. BUT if you had 2000 seats and sold out at $15 but 3000 wanted to attended how much could you really charge. With more demand you can charge more. Also if you have more corps with regional touring you can defently cahrge more. But more people need to be aware of the activity. Maybe thats why hald the theatres are half empty each year. Something like that should be sold out, then have a 2nd showing on tape.
Couldn't agree more with these two points. Instead of sharing revenue based on some unscientific estimation of draw, give everyone an equivalent base appearance fee and then give cash prizes for placement ... like the PGA.
As for advertising ... that is probably my biggest beef with DCI. I know people think that this is a niche activity that won't ever expand, but I think that is untrue. Drum Corps is exciting, moving, creative, artistic, culturally invigorating, etc. You can't tell me there aren't tens of thousands of people out there that wouldn't love going to a drum corps show, if they only knew what it was. If ordinary people will pay a significant amount of money to go to the opera or a ballet or modern dance recital, you can't tell me there aren't some that wouldn't pay to watch a DCI show, even if they haven't participated in drum corps.
If the current smaller stadiums sell out, then move to a bigger stadium. I bet there are many college stadiums across the country that would allow DCI to move in for a reasonable fee. DCI needs to do a better job at marketing, and they need to do a better job at creating a promotional model that will allow people to taste DCI without paying an arm and a leg. And theater shows are not good enough. No theater show is even close to the experience of seeing a show live. If DCI can get more people in a stadium watching a live show, they will add a lot of new fans. Maybe they need to do some free or cheap exhibition shows, to widen the fan base. Not full competition performances, but give people a taste. There is a lot of untapped potential out there.
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Another great example is Carolina Crown, genius behind the scene cash flow from ticket operating, etc. Crown is a good study because they are a relatively new player in comparison to many of the elite.
Crown is a perfect model for corps to follow, and proves that you can move up in this activity. The suggestion that the lower level WC corps are stuck there forever is just not true. They can move up, and as they become more competitive they will be rewarded with better financial stability.
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As for your comments about "revenue sharing" being a bad thing, there's already "revenue sharing" of a sort in DCI in the form of standardized appearance fees. And between the ToC shows and the standard contract, stronger, richer corps are getting more money per appearance. But why should that be so? It costs Teal and Surf essentially just as much as it costs Bluecoats and Blue Devils to run their tour, pay for fuel and equipment, and all the rest.
That should be so, because the "stronger, richer corps" are the corps that are persuading people to pay a lot of money for tickets and internet streams. Which show do you think will have a larger audience? One featuring the Blue Devils, Cavaliers, and Cadets? or one featuring the Teal Sound, Pioneer, and Cascades?
This is simple basic economics 101. Supply and demand.
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I keep seeing people say that DCI should "look out" for all the corps. I'm not exactly sure what people mean by that. I certainly think that it is appropriate for there to be some basic financial oversight of corps, to protect the members from getting ripped off. My understanding is that the members have to pay quite a bit of money to participate in these corps. Are the members of Teal Sound going to get reimbursed? I hope so. I think it is entirely appropriate for DCI to have some financial disclosure requirements, and for corps to be required to show they can make it through a season financially. If we weren't talking about young people, I wouldn't care as much. Adults can bear the risk of dealing with financial problems. It isn't fair to put teenagers in that situation.
With that said, I don't see how the financial auditing requirements can be that extensive. Auditing isn't cheap, and doing an in depth audit of every corps every year just doesn't make sense financially. Require the corps to disclose their financial state, and if they are caught filing inaccurate documents, penalize them in some way.
To the extent that people are suggesting that DCI should be "acting collectively for the good of all the corps," that WILL be the downfall of DCI if that ever becomes the policy. I love it when people here compare DCI to the NFL, as if they are even close to comparable. They aren't. The NFL is the best run competitive league in the world, and no other league even comes close. There are certain things they do that are certainly worth emulating, but there are ALSO certain things they do that no other competitive league could do. Take "revenue sharing," for example. I have seen some throw that around as a solution to financial problems of some corps. It works in the NFL, why not DCI? It won't work for DCI because DCI doesn't make money. Revenue sharing in the NFL was implemented for the purpose of competitive balance, not for the purpose of increasing revenue throughout the NFL. When the NFL decided to share 75% of its revenue between all the teams, they didn't do it because they thought it would increase their profitability ... at least not directly. They did it because they believed parity would improve the sport. It worked wonderfully. The NFL is more competitively balanced than any other sports league in America. Teams from Green Bay Wisconsin and Buffalo New York can compete for Super Bowls for this reason. Over the long run, it has paid off and the parity made the sport more popular and probably even increased revenue league wide.
Sounds like a great thing for DCI to do. The only problem is that DCI wouldn't survive five years if it did it. You see, taking money from the corps that are "getting by," and giving it to the corps that are poorly managed and "not getting by," just makes it harder for the teams that are "getting by" to continue to "get by." I don't think there are any corps that are raking in huge profits. Taxing those corps for the benefit of the others will only result in less financial stability for all. Revenue sharing will not work in an activity where every member organization is struggling to get by.
Is regionalism a solution? I don't think so ... at least not formal regionalism. Many corps already limit their early tour schedule regionally. As far as I know (and I very well could not know), corps aren't forced to travel all over the country. If a corps can't afford to make a nationwide tour, then they should be smart enough not to do it. Let their membership know up front what the corps is able to do, and then be financially responsible. If you can't afford a tour on the other side of the country, like Boston and Phantom apparently could this year, don't try to do it. I don't think DCI needs to impose regionalism. Now, if DCI can make it easier for smaller corps to be competitive while staying close to home, then I am all for that. But DCI does not need to be the financial babysitter of these organizations.
So what is the solution? This will sound harsh, but the solution is obvious. You let the corps that cannot survive financially fail. Propping up inefficient corps is akin to throwing money into a fire pit. It doesn't do any good for anyone, except for the corps that is dragging everyone else down. I don't think the Teal Sound is "too big to fail." It is economic darwinism. Letting the weak and inefficient corps fail allows room for other existing corps, and perhaps even new innovative corps, to succeed. This has been shown in the real world over and over again. Failure sucks for those involved, but it is not always a bad thing. Those that survive will get stronger. As long as there are some safeguards to protect the members of the corps, I think this is inevitable and healthy.
Just to be clear, I am not trying to make accusations about the leadership of Teal Sound. Sometimes unforeseen, and unfair, events happen that cannot be overcome. Life isn't fair. Trying to make life fair doesn't usually work. That could very well be what happened in this case. Hopefully Teal Sound can pull their way out of their current situation and be stronger for it. If not, it will truly be a sad event. That doesn't mean it wasn't an inevitable or healthy event though. We shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath water here.
I am also not trying to say that there isn't anything DCI could do to make it easier for corps to be financially sound. There are certainly many, and I have commented on them a couple times. I think the DCI business model could use a lot of improvements.
End of rant (sorry).
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No offense, but... according to Team Marketing Report's survey of the NFL: The price of a NFL ticket rose 4% overall this past season to $75 ave. per ticket per game (excluding Play-offs and the Super Bowl which were astronomically higher). Dallas surpassed New England and now has the most expensive tickets in the league with Cowboys single-game tickets "averaging" $160 per ticket. The sticker shock doesn't end with the cost of tickets, however. The Fan Cost Index - what it takes to bring a family of four to a game - is $759 per game in Dallas. The Patriots check in with the second-highest at $597, and the league average is $412. The biggest bargains in the NFL can be found in Buffalo, where tickets average $51 and the Fan Cost Index is $304 (per game), and in Jacksonville, $57 and $310 (per game). And while the TV broadcasts might be "free to the end user" sitting at home drinking beer and snoring on the couch, the cost to broadcast each game on a network is millions of dollars per game and the broadcast time is paid by advertisers. Again...no offense... but...
I'm not sure I get your point. Are you seriously comparing DCI to the NFL? We are talking about what it will take to expand the fan base, are we not?
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I do know that sports that wall themselves into a "pay to watch" situation tend to decline, while sports that keep themselves visible to thrive. Boxing used to be a very visible sport, but it went the "pay to watch" route. More people watch the phony professional wrestling now.
In many markets, you have to buy an extra TV channel to watch the local baseball games. The ratings of the World Series have been dropping over the years, while the NFL's ratings are steady and the sport thrives.
This is key and why DCI will never grow beyond its fanatical audience. As a new fan, who is very enthusiastic, I find the fact that I cannot see full shows without paying a minimum of $50 to be very off putting. I can't imagine what a less casual fan might think. The truth is, DCI's business model is messed up. You are not going to grow your fan base with such large barriers to entry. Basically, anyone that isn't enthusiastic enough to pay for the Fan Network is pretty unlikely to be a continuing fan of DCI. They may watch a theater show every once in a while, but it is just too hard to be a fan of something you can't see.
Not that there is anything wrong with this. If DCI is doing fine financially (doubtful in this economy) and wants to keep its activity relatively exclusive, they are free to do so.
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I'm not an electronics hater like some here, but I think it really hurts BK's show this year. I am normally a fan, but the electronics didn't blend well with the corps, and I think that is the problem. The sound is just so much different, and frankly, the electronics make the mistakes of the corps when they are playing stick out more. It isn't simply that they use electronics that bothered me, it was that they aren't using them effectively. At least not yet. Maybe it will improve by August.
I love their music selection and loved the design of their drill, but the show as a whole just left me feeling kind of blah. That could be a function of them performing after Boston, SCV, Phantom, and Blue Devils at the show I was at. They just aren't up to that level yet.
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Music from There Will Be Blood by Johnny Greenwood
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Was at this show tonight. It was a blast! I have to say that I absolutely love the Blue Devils show this year, which is not something I have ever been able to say before. It wasn't something that would compel to get up and cheer, but I found it surprisingly compelling and fun to take in. They are going to be tough to beat this year.
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Not only is this a slippery slope, but it's the epitome of the "me" generation: I want something, so I obviously think I'm entitled to it for free whenever I want to see it. There are plenty of free samples on Fan Network and a plethora of video on youtube (unauthorized or otherwise) for folks to check out and make the decision to buy or not.
I think you completely missed the point. No one is suggesting that all Drum Corps shows be made available for free on the internet. I am suggesting make a full show or two available for people that have never heard of drum corps before, so they can get a taste of it. There is nothing greedy about that.
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Responses:
1) Unless a particular corps produces completely "origonal" material created by the corps staff the Intellectual Property is not a Drum Corps issue; it is the issue of those who own the rights to said property which are the "Publishers" of the Music. These publishers run what is called a business; and the first axiom in business is to make a profit. If you want the corps to give away stuff for free then the corps will have to come up with their own creations (not arrangements of others work/property).
This is not true. You can get rights holders to sign over rights for a free sample show. People do it all the time. It will costs some money, but you can do it.
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1. Stop being so stingy with your intellectual property. I understand it may be difficult to deal with this issue, given the fact that you are dealing with many rights holders, but it is nearly impossible to see high quality video of full shows without paying a significant amount of money. What new fan is going to pay a good chunk of change for something that is relatively obscure and not seen before? Sometimes making money means giving some things away free. Give people an easy way to taste a decent sample of your product so they are willing to pay for more of it.
2. More shows in a larger variety of venues that showcase the top corps. As others have mentioned, have more shows throughout the season in larger population centers that feature all of the top 7-10 corps. I dont think the content of drum corps is the problem. The problem with growth is access and marketing. People simply dont know about it, and when they do know about it they are unlikely to have the opportunity to see the best shows except on a crappy internet stream that costs a lot of money. People arent going to cross those barriers to entry without already being predisposed to being an enthusiaistic fan, likely as a result of being in high school marching band.
3. Make your streaming content easier to access on more platforms. Switch to html5 so you can watch video on ipads and iphones. Create a roku app. I am fine paying for the content, but it would be nice to have it available in a more readily accessible format. Let me watch it on my 50" HD television.
4. This might be the most difficult and radical proposition, but I think drum corps would benefit a lot from associating itself with the intercollegiate system. It would probably mean a change in the age levels of participants, but I think associating with universities would help with marketing, fan base, fundraising, etc. I am not talking about football game half time sows (though that might be something that would be beneficial to growing the fanbase. I am talking about competitive drum corps between colleges, either on a school sponsored level (like NCAA sports) or on a non-official private club basis. I was in a college marching band, and while it was fun at times, I ultimately found it a waste of time. The biggest factor was lack of competition. No one had the commitment to excellence that comes with having the drive to win competitions. If colleges sponsored competitive drum corps, I think it would explode. I understand that this is very unlikely to ever even be considered, and would have a lot of drawbacks. It would certainly be something that the current corps would never do. It would have to be a whole new system.
The problem with drum corps isnt that it isnt exciting or crowd pleasing. It is that no one is aware of it, and the new potential fans that become aware aren't going to pay the costs to become a fan.
P.S. Just to give some context to my suggestions, I am a relatively new drum corps fan that has never participated in a corps. I had a great experience in high school marching band, which is why I am attracted to DCI. These are just some things I have noticed as I have tried to get more excited. Paying $55 to go to a show featuring only 2 or 3 top corps is a lot of money for a casual fan or new fan to pay.
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Gees, another one? Let it die already!
Has someone else already ask this question? I'm sorry, I didn't see it anywhere. I guess you can ignore me if you would like.
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Can you tell me where that is documented? I don't recall seeing a list of which corps bring in what percentage of the fans or sponsorships.
A link will suffice, if it's on the Web.
Just an assumption on my part. I could be dead wrong. I don't think I am though.
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I am new to DCP. I have been a casual fan of drum corp for a while, but never marched. I was in a very good high school marching band. After watching the DCI Championships this year and reading several of the thoughts on some of the shows, I had a question that I figured I would post a poll about. In the interest of full disclosure, I did not like the Blue Devils show at all this year. I did not find it entertaining or groundbreaking. I have heard some say that the Blue Devils executed their show at an incredible level. I'm sure that is the case. Was that the reason they won, or were other corps like the Cavaliers and Bluecoats performing at the same level? Was it the uniqueness of the show or the execution that gave the Blue Devils the gold medal this year?
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The G-7 can't survive on their own outside of DCI either. 7 Corps would have a shelf life of maybe 2 years at best outside of DCI. Even the successful " BLAST " ultimately ran it's course.
But if some or all of these Corps want to leave DCI ... then go, and don't let the screen door hit you in the back as you head out.
The G-7 concept proposal is as dead as the fictional character Geoffrey is now.
That battle was fought. We have the winners. We have the losers.
The overall health of the activity will now be restored to it's proper place. And the majority of fans will now benefit from that restoration in the coming years, imo. The loss of 1 or even all 7 Corps ( as good as they are ) will not be the end of Drum Corps as we know it. We've lost dozens of once great Corps and survived... some say got better. This might even be rebirth Rennaisance period that finally takes the activity out of the Dark Ages..... "Change is good". Isn't that what we hear all the time ?
I hope you are right, but I actually think the battle is just beginning. The renewal of Acheson was a shot across the bow, not a resolution of the standoff.
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Yes. I most certainly would.
The IRL split from CART/IndyCar was similar- the IRL had the "weaker" product, CART had the big teams and names. CART ran out of money, the top teams came back to IRL so they could compete at Indy (ironic, isn't it!?) and re-merged.
It might mean for a rough go at first for what is left, but they do produce a more than acceptable product, and given the G7 want to turn themselves into some kind of super-BoA band thing, Drum Corps fans will want to see CORPS- not BAND.
They want to go- wave goodbye. As Hancock more or less said on the second day of Gettysburg when Sickles moved his troops into the wheatfield out of position... "don't worry, they'll be back..."
Oh, and one more thing- since DCI shows in the PA/MD/NJ area would no longer all be run by YEA! (except for DCI East), I'd be inclined to spend my money to take a couple in and enjoy the show. I'd also bet the ticket prices would be far more reasonable as well....
You could be right. If they do an upper level "band" thing, then there would be an easy way to differentiate DCI and keep it going.
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I believe that the vote of confidence by the new Board of Directors of the guy the other board wanted booted means that the majority of DCI members ARE interested in a resolution " to the whole mess. They " ended this mess " with the vote. It's over. DCI moves on to its agenda, and policies and procedures that it's membership ( including the G-7 ) agreed to in principle, and will put into practice in the coming years with the Board of Directors and it's members.
The G-7 proposal is dead.
Now.... if a few people in DCI can't live with the majority of their colleagues in DCI wishes, and find THEMSELVES in " a mess ", as a result, then they'll have to think long and hard about getting back in line.... or leaving. Those really are to only 2 choices to get themselves out of the mess they created for themselves, which cost them their positions on the Board and has now relegated themselves to back benchers in DCI. THEY brought this on themselves. DCI just saved the activity from the disastrous consequences of a power grab coup attempt. The situation HAS been resolved as far as DCI is concerned.
I'll have to disagree with you there. Anything that is a "mess" for the top 7 corps in the organization (the corps that bring in a majority of the fans and sponsorships) is a "mess" for the organization.
5 good reason the activity is destined to end
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Yep. Let's make them all equally mediocre. Competition breeds excellence.