venkeman
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Posts posted by venkeman
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Just to keep the fun going.
From George's Facebook Page:
"2012 marks the 25th Anniversary of the Cadets Appalachian Spring show.
Hmmmmm"
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Winning DCI can help in year 1 for sure. But there's more to this game than winning DCI. Ask my old corps....someone thought winning DCA would be a genius way to start a D2/3 corps.
You're comparing Westshoremen to Cadets/YEA........ really?
The biggest thing in the Cadets2 favor is that it can be marketed as a pathway to marching Cadets. Even if it just draws from the greater Lehigh Valley area, kids that may not quite have the skills or money to march Cadets will look at Cadets2 as a way to learn the Cadet way, improve their skills, and maybe showcase themselves to the staff (because the staffs are going to communicate).
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Corps like the Raiders, Jersey Surf, the Spartans etc follow a weekend-only achedule during the early part of the summer and follow the DCI tour leading into championships later in the summer. Not only is there a lack of performance opportunities for these corps but DCI has clearly shown a disdain because they feel they are too difficult to market. I'm sure that scheduling is also difficult when you have shows during the week and a corps that only gets together on the weekends. DCA offers the only viable match for a true weekend-only format. I know first-hand that within the past few years, there had been discussions held with DCA about incorporating these corps into the DCA schedule. Competing at DCA championships posed a problem since the DCI season ends much earlier.
DCA Junior Division:
Make the age limit somewhere around 23 - 25.
Market to that HS/College kid who can't afford to march DCI.
And maybe expand into those areas that don't have a large contingent of all-age corps. Not only could they act as feeders for the all-age corps or even for new DCA corps, but it could provide more performing ensembles so you could have stand alone DCA shows instead of piggybacking on DCI shows.
Just a thought.
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(If the following point has already been stated and I missed it, I apologize.)
IMHO there has been and is a division in DCI/DCA that is missing.
We have World Class which is "full time" (7 days a week) junior corps. We have Open Clas which is "full time" junior corps with a more limited tour schedule. And we have DCA which is all-age weekends. What about junior corps that is just weekends, ie. the model that Cadets2 will be using, considering the age limit.
I know some will say that those kids should just march a DCA corps. But what if they are looking for more of the DCI feel (kids there own age) and are turned off to DCA as being too old. (personally, I would have rather marched a Cadets2 type corps versus a DCA corps, ESP after the experience I had in a not-to-be-named DCA corps).
I have read in other threads over the years about the shrinking number of corps and how the cost of running the corps have driven many under. Well, maybe this is the model for rejuvenating the activity. It will allow the junior aged kids to march and still work. It will also give the HS aged kids who can't march DCI, because of how early they start, another avenue to drum corps. And anything that gets more kids involved and more corps on the field can't be a bad thing.
Again, just MHO.
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While it would be cool to see the Cadets do this again, I'd almost rather them not.
A.) Vanguard just did it in 09.
B.) Anniversary shows rarely live up to the original. (Cadets '09 was great, but no '84.)
C.) I want to see them continue forward on the path they set out this year instead of returning to something that's already been done.
:thumbup: D.) 87 is my favorite DC show ever. Please George, leave it alone.
Thanks!
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Another interesting stat in my opinion is that after the Quarters on Thursday and we had the placements of the 17 Corps, over the next 2 nights, with 2 sets of completely new judging panels totaling 16 judges, not a single Corps changed placement positions either up or down. Thats amazing consistency when one considers that its generally accepted by most people that show performance levels generally can change from nite to nite with most Corps. In this case, we had 29 Corps performances ( 17 in Semi's, and 12 in Finals ) and not a single Corps changed placement positions in the 2 days. I find this a most fascinating random stat.
Point made about the top 17 not changing positions after PRELIMS, however there were changes in 19-25 from PRELIMS to semis (there were 25 corps in semis). Cascades and Vanguard Cadets flipped, Teal Sound and Mandarins flipped with Blue Devils B passing both of them.
Now this can either be proof against slotting, or proof of slotting with the OC corps just confusing the issue.
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The Demons take their characters a bit too far and decide that the Angels can not be allowed to win. Therefor they throw the show in favor of there fellow Devils!
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Why an ATM?
Maybe you missed it, but someone busted into the Blue Devil bingo hall and stole the ATM. Thus the demons .......
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Angels become confused and line up for the beginning of Blue Devils show.
Demons throw a busted up ATM machine across the field.
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I notice nobody is making a big deal about the fact that BD won GE Vis at the TOC finals, but finished 2nd behind Cadets at East. Cadets won GE Overall by .5 at East and TOC. So it sounds like the discussion should be (just to stir the pot) whether everyone else was scored too high.
I wouldn't get too hyper about the TOC scores, because there is only one score that counts, and we'll get them Saturday night. And if the TOC scores have any influence on finals, after PRELIMS and semis, then DCI judging is in worse shape then everyone thought.
(oh, and the TOC rcap is still up on the DCI website.)
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The marching band camp is run by Vivace Productions (the same group that runs the Collegiate Marching Band Festval each fall at JB Crum). The camp was held last week.
There were a couple years in the mid 90's when it was a DCA show.
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I like what ever size is needed to accomplish to show concept. If that's 64, great. If it's 80, that's great too!
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LOL! See, there you go, I have not even posted them yet and you are already saying they are wrong. Unbelievable!.
You already said that they DIDN'T field 150, and I say they did. So, while you haven't posted an exact number, I and disputing the info you did post.
Nope. You didn't even have the right number of tenors and that's EASY to count.I know you're going to tell me that they only marched 4 because that is all that was on the field for finals. But they marched 5 for most of the season.
All I know is what I counted on the DVD. If you say there were injuries, fine.That sort of puts an end to your entire argument. Again, if they didn't appear on the finals DVD then they don't count? Let me apply your theory to another scenario.
"Major League Baseball obviously needs to reduce the numbers of players that each team can have on the rosters. I mean, how can it be a good thing if a team like the Boston Red Sox can only field a team of 12. Now some people have told me that they have a full roster of 25, but I watched the game and even taped it and stopped at several points and I could only count 12 different players."
I've given you my answers to your initial 3 question hypothesis. Take it for what it is, my opinion. The only way you will get a credible answer to the 150 question is to talk to the corps directors and staffs yourself. I won't drop any names, but I did talk, briefly, to a couple about the decision on the number of horns they carried, and they all said it was their choice. And we're talking everything from 72 - 80. (And all the corps fielded 150 to start 2010.) So it had nothing to do with not being able to field the 150 max.
From your arguments you seem to be opposed to the 150 rule because it hurts the smaller corps. That's fine. (Though you did say earlier that you were fine with 150.) Again, if raising the max from 135 to 150 has increased the number of kids marching world class, then I say it was successful even if they are all not carrying 150, for what ever reasons.
You can keep arguing about what numbers appear or don't appear on the 2009 DVD's, but I need to go to work. Thanks to everyone for their great comments and opinions.
Enough said.
Have A Nice Day!
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Um, no they didn't. Not in 09. Please keep in mind, my homework assignment was 2009, not 2010 I don't know what they marched in 2010. Don't care right now. 09 was what everyone said I was wrong about so that is what I checked. And trust me, Cadets did not carry the numbers you just gave us.
Believe it or not, I actually counted them 8 times (and from different minute numbers) because I was so shocked at the number I saw. Tomorrow, 10am cst.
(Now watch folks, venkeman won't even come back and admit that he was mistaken on the year he thought I was talking about. And by the way, this also proves that he isn't even reading everything I write. How can a person claim a person is wrong about something when they don't even know what the other person said? Yes indeed, folks venkeman's rebuttle is as follows..."I did not read what you wrote but I know that whatever it is, you are wrong". Got it!)
Oh, I have read all 40 of your previous posts. And I have enjoyed how you tear everyone apart who disagrees with what you want to say. And how you try to sqirm out of the question when your proven wrong.
And while I was quoting the 2010 numbers, your 2009 numbers for Cadets are wrong. In '09 they marched 72 horns, 9/5/5 15 pit, 42 guard, 2 DM's. = 150. Now, again, you can come back and say that because of injuries they didn't have that number on the field at finals and only what they marched at finals counts, but for the majority of the season, those were the numbers ON THE FIELD! So they marched 150! And I would love to see you go up to a member who was injured and didn't march finals and tell them that they didn't count or wasn't part of the corps!
Now, to get back to your original 3 questions:
#1. A combination of A and C. Most corps are getting above the old 128 and many of those numbers are going into the guard.
#2. Yes, the change was worth it. Even if the average # in each corps is 135 (I believe it is higher), that's 161 more young people who have the chance to march with a World Class corps. And even if it is just the top 5 or 6 that are reaching 150, that's still 110 to 132 more kids that get to march with the best of the best. Is that worth it, YES!
#3. Is it fair the Yankees have a 206.7 million dollar payroll? Last time I checked, the DCI sheets didn't include points for the numbers of people in the corps. The corps that utilize their talents to the utmost and have in place good instructional staff and sound educational programs are going to achieve, no matter what their size. Otherwise, the assumption would be that the bigger you are the higher you finish. And that is just a canard.
Now you can go ahead and tear apart my answers and say that I am wrong (you seem pretty good at that), but here's a challenge for you. Why don't you give well thought out answers to your own questions instead of posing them and then ripping everyone else apart.
Have A Nice Day!
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Sure, I thought about that. That was until I discovered that The Cadets aren't even carrying the full 150.
*GASP!* Ohhhh CRAP!!!!!!! I just gave one of my secrets away for tomorrow at 10AM!!!!!
Ah well, consider it like when a kid gets to open up one Christmas gift on Christmas eve before going to bed. You just opened your one Christmas eve gift. Now nity nite...and NNNO PEAKING!!!
*Here comes Santa Clause, Here comes Santa Clause Dun dun dun dun daahhhhh....*
And when you open your gift tomorrow, you will find coal!
Cadets did march 150! 72 horns (by choice), 8/6/5/ 14 pit, 41 guard, 3 Dm's and Geoffrey! = 150. Now you can go ahead and make your argument that since 1 bass got hurt and couldn't finish the season, that that only makes 149, but the fact is that they marched 150 on the field during the season!
Have A Nice Day!
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Um...exqweeze me, this is not a thread about electronics.
Errm...uhh... So anyway. As for hops proposals. I find your statement comical (I giggled) about "if the other directors didn't want the proposals, they would have voted against then".
What a naïve statement that is. Newsflash, most of Hop's proposals (at least the radical ones) don't pass on his first try.
What da ya make uh that?
I make of it that most of the other directors don't want his proposals but after so much badgering and maniacle pushing, they finally just give up the fight and say "ok fine, Hop. Whatever you say". It's like that annoying kid at the candy store who keeps bugging his parents for a bag of taffy. By the time he is kicking, screeming, crying, biting and spitting, the parents finally give in just to have a moment of peace.
I'll give Hop one thing, he sure doesn't give up without a fight. If he were a politition, he would be President Of The United States.
You must really think that guys like Jeff Fiedler, Dave Gibbs, Jim Coates et al, must be very weak minded men that they can't stand up for themselves against the "All Mighty" Hopkins. Did it ever occur to you that maybe by not carrying 150 members it was their way of saying, George you go ahead, but we're not going to push the numbers that high. Or, maybe, they wanted the limit at 150 and just let Hopkins take the heat for it.
Have A Nice Day.
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cool, tx for the update. Now the Q is: was that because 72 is what they wanted, or (txpride's thesis) that they couldn't find enough?
I would put even money that they only wanted to march 72. I don't think Cadets, among others, would have any problem finding 172 if they wanted to. And I am sure they are very selective on the level of talent they take as well.
I think the best groups to look at to come up with some answers would be BD, SCV and Colts. All three organizations have "Cadet" corps, and if they didn't carry 150 with the top groups, then it was obviously a choice they made.
I would also like to know when 80 became the magic number for the horn line in a 150 member corps. 64 (50%) seemed to be the standard when they carried 128, so wouldn't 75 (50%) seem to be the logical number for 150. And remember, 150 is a maximum, not a requirement. Also, with the turn that DCI seems to have taken in the last couple of years of putting more of an emphasis on the visual program, it would seem logical to me that you would want to carry a larger guard.
Have a nice day!
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Blue Devils should be congratulated on winning another title.
And, while I did not particularly like this years show (Kenton's City of Glass is a bit harsh for the field, in my opinion), I did have to give it up for the level of execution it took to pull it off and the level of excellence that the corps achieved. I think too may people jump to the conclusion that if you didn't like the show you thought the corps was bad or you were hating on BD. It's ok to not like a show. (I didn't and to this day don't like Cadets '91, and I am a big Cadet fan.) (And I disagree with booing.)
So BD, keep pushing the envelope and develop the show concepts that are new, interesting and make the DCI audience have to think a bit.
Have a nice day!
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True, but without the proposal there would be nothing to vote on. Hopkins has managed to creep things along towards whatever his desire is, year by year. Hey, we need more members to fill the buses! Hey, the pit is being overpowered by all these horns! We need amps for the pit! Well, look we have amps, with lots of money spent on them, and all they're doing is amping the pit. Let's add voice! And synths! Well, now it sounds like crap, we need staff members operating a mixer, and up in the press box! Now with all these amps, you can't hear the soloists, we need to allow miked horns! Now we can't get enough people to try out each year to fill up these 150 spots, we need to allow woodwinds! Hey, when did running a drum corps get so expensive? Don't they know we have all this electronic gear and 150 kids to feed?? Let's get rid of open class, and funnel more money away from the lower-tier corps up to the top... however low we have to go to keep the Cadets in there.
Each step seems halfway reasonable, and if nothing else, Hopkins is an incredible salesman. But without him pushing these changes every year (and bringing them back up over and over and over after they get defeated) they wouldn't have happened. Maybe some of them, and maybe they're all inevitable, but every year brings some new rule change that reflects whatever Hopkins was irritated about three years prior, and there's some benefit to stability, too.
Oh, I see. It's not the fault of the other corps directors for voting for the proposals, it's George's fault for bringing them up in the first place. So that's how it works. My fault for not understand that. Here I thought it was a democracy where anyone could propose an idea, and if everyone agrees, then it becomes a rule. Next I guess you'll tell me that he threatens to steal their lunch money if they don't vote his way. Give me a break. If the other directors didn't want the changes they would have voted against them. And, by the way, I didn't hear a lot of people condemning Bluecoats when they were winning early season, and I think they used more electronics than any corps in recent history. (I could be wrong, but I don't remember Cadets miking soloist in order so manipulate their tone!)
Have a nice Day!
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4 points:
#1: 72 horns + 34 perc (8/5/5/4/ 12 pit) + 3 DM's leaves only room for 41 guard not 60.
#2: If you marched 100 horns, you couldn't put out a balanced look. Even with a small perc section (8/4/5 10 pit) and 2 DM's, that would only leave 21 guard. They would be lost visually. Plus you would need a larger perc. section to balance 100 horns and probably at least 1 more DM.
#3: Corps are starting spring training earlier than they used to, thus eliminating a number of the 14 - 18 year olds who might have marched but can't because they can't get out of school.
#4: Stop blaming Hopkins for everything. Last I checked, it took more than 1 vote to pass all these "bad" rule changes. And if they are so "bad", why are the other corps going along with them?
(Also, Cadets only marched 72 horns in 2010, and @Cage, they had 5 cymbals on the field in '97)
Have a nice day!
MAJOR announcement from INT
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
And you thought people not cheering for corps they don't like is bad, people hate INT so much that they actually get up and leave when they take the field. Saw it with my own two eyes on several occasions. Honest.