bchorn
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Posts posted by bchorn
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I'm fascinated by the discussion regarding whether Drum Corp costs more today than it did 30-40 years ago. Using the CPI Inflation Calculator I calculated the following multipliers for people to use to determine if drum corp cost more or less back "in the day".
Year   Multiplier
1975Â Â Â 4.77
1976Â Â Â 4.5
1977Â Â Â 4.21
1978Â Â Â 3.92
1979Â Â Â 3.54
1980Â Â Â 3.09
1981Â Â Â 2.82
1982Â Â Â 2.64
1983Â Â Â 2.57
1984Â Â Â 2.46
1985Â Â Â 2.38
1986Â Â Â 2.33
1987Â Â Â 2.25
1988Â Â Â 2.17
1989Â Â Â 2.06So if someone paid $700 in 1975 to march in drum corp, that would be $700 * 4.77 = $3339 in today's dollars.
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I thought BD had their own "Mediabox" site for audio and video--is it possible that most BD fans opt to get what they need there rather than from the Fan Network?
The Mediabox has Blue Devil exclusive content (like warm ups and other behind the scenes stuff) on it. But for actual video and audio performances that is produced by DCI itself, you can only get that content from DCI itself.
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A better question would be....why is every non-Blue Devil world champion since 2006 on the most downloaded video performances list but none of 4 Blue Devils world champions???
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You (and many others) wanted the judges to validate your taste and they didn't.
My frustration is due to the fact that the Blue Devils typically aren't even in my top 5 of entertaining shows of the finals and yet they still place 1st or 2nd. The Blue Devils are my least watched corp on my Disc 1 from last year's World Championships. People will say that's just because I'm a BD hater but in reality I really want to like the Blue Devils. I absolutely hate it when I only watch 5 of the top 6 corps. I still don't get the 1930 show whereas I've watched Carolina Crown and Cadets from that year 10x as much. Whatever they are doing I wish I could get so that I would enjoy them more.
Again, I think the disconnect seen in the fan vote from last year DCI Austin reflects this frustration from others as well.
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not trying to tell you what to like or dislike...why would I care?( or why would you care what I like or teach) Spin it yourelf however you want. If 1 corps ruins it for you then maybe you havent learned a thing in your 25 years.if its more than one then if you are in a position to change a corps , have at it....if not then OH WELL.Dont watch them, what can I tell ya...there may be many who feel like you just as ther are many who would disagree...does it really matter that much?..So you dont like a theme of a corps..big deal ...watch someone else
and just to get back on topic...if I like BD or not in recent years is not the point..what is the point is them doing what they have chose to do, open doors for others to not be confined to some idea that things have to be done a certain way and that one can explore and be creative and true to themselves. Boundries broken, enveloped pushed..just what many did BITD so that we can have drum corps today
But it's not just me. I've read many other people say the same thing about Blue Devils regarding the last 6-8 year period. Again, if it was just me or few people here or there, then I wouldn't be saying ANYTHING. But I'm hearing this same discontent from a large contingent of people.
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the dislike of a winner, especially multiple has always been part of it. I remember audience doing the same of others BITD. change doent sit well with many drum corps people...never has even back in the 70s.......being different you are right, they are in their approach but I say so what? do we want 12 of the same? I know I dont...fans have always found negitivity throughout the years, especially if it was a corp that THEY think should have won and didnt..its classic and predictable..Audience rarely are of the same opinion as the winner .does it happen....usually when people dont care who wins as long as its someone else.
as far as top 5 and sheets I can tell you working the sheets goes far beyond the top 5. This I do know 1st hand. I am sorry you have been disinterested in drum corps except for a few shows in the past several years and not sure what to tell you about that other than this has happened to folks also even back when dci was formed. I think there is enough diversity for you to enjoy some but if its the WINNER you are talking about all I can say is what has been told to us as members, as we have told kids. we cant control the outcome but can control our own job. So get out of it what you can and do you best and enjoy.many , especaially here say its not about scores , then what difference does it make and it shouldnt diminish the experience
This is more than just a dislike of ONE winner. This is dislike of MULTIPLE winners by one corp over a short period of time. In my 25 years of watching drum corp, this has never happened before. Yes, I may have not liked a winner here or there but rarely did I dislike the same top 5 corp year after year. So don't try to spin this as a "people have always disliked the winner since the dawn of time" because I have never experienced this before. So please, don't try to convince me otherwise.
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I totally understand what you are saying and thats fine BUT also top corps have always played to the sheets. I sit on the staff of 2 finalist' as well as a DCA corp and sheets always come up come up in initial meetings. Now Im not say so called entertainment doesnt come up. What some arm chair judging does have is no restrictions of NOT having a show style opinion....a Judge ( and yes I have been one ) does not judge the type of show or try to re write a show , a judge judges what a corps decided to do and have they achieved it in excellence as well as conveying their message, not if they liked it or not . Look at another widely popular corps this year and how style and theme wise they changed alot from 2011, worked the sheets as well as maybe followed cadets style a bit because maybe it worked for them...JMO
as hard as it may be to believe BITD i was on staff and a very young staff member learning and was with a very controversial corps which entertainment and the audience was top concern SHEETS, even back then were talked about and how those things needed to be counted in beacuse although we were in it to entertain we were also in it to be successful and were !
Well, I'm not so sure about Top Corps ALWAYS playing to the sheets but I will say this. I have been watching Drum Corps for 25 years since I was in high school and never have I been as disinterested in the DCI World Champion as I have been the last 4 times when the Blue Devils won. I'm not saying my years of experience makes me a better fan. I'm just pointing it out to show that the Blue Devils are approaching their show design differently from others. If it was just me, then I wouldn't be posting like I have. But when I dig around on drum corp sites, I notice similiar discontent by others. I notice things like BDs getting 7th in the fan vote while the judges place them 3rd. I notice things like only 10% of the audience stays behind for this year's champion versus 50% for last year's champion. Or when I'm walking out of the stadium on finals night all i hear are fans shouting B#######! All these little things tell me I'm not alone in my discontent with the BDs.
And here's the really sad part, I WANT to like the Blue Devils. I am a bandwagon fan who has no strong allegiance to any corp. All they have to do is make an entertaining show like Cadets 2011 or Phantom 2008 (the last two non-BD champions) and then I'm on the bandwagon.
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thats where you got it wrong..ive almost never been a BD fan even BITD...im just telling it as I see it...and Ive been on tour all summer at regionals as well as PO DUNK america...there are also many more than a few BD suporters , they may not indulge in the DCP scene but they are there a well as many young new fans.
Was it a widley popular show? no....does it matter that EVERYONE didnt like it NOPE....that can also be said of every single corps out there......now I guess you'll tell be the %s and averages...dont bother its not all that important
Guardling,
The World Championship show of 2012 was NOT a wildly popular show. This is the point I've been trying to make this entire time on this thread. I never said that NO ONE liked the World Championship show of 2012. Of course, there are people who liked the World Championship show of 2012 above all others. My concern is that I feel that DCI will suffer if it continues to award a World Championship to a show that is not wildly popular.
My point in bringing up the fan vote from DCI Austin last year was to point that the judges like the Blue Devils more than the fans. I'm not saying that no one likes the Blue Devils. I'm just saying that the Blue Devils have a recent history of being more popular with the judges than with the fans. Again, I'm not saying that the Blue Devils are not popular.
My concern is that other corps are going to start "playing to the sheets" like the Blue Devils and not care about making wildly popular shows because that's the winning formula the Blue Devils have used the last 6 years to place in the top 2. If 2013 turns out to have more shows like the Blue Devils than Carolina Crown, then I may just give up on drum corp as a whole after 25 years.
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im not saying anything,,,,,and encores dont mean the mass liked or disliked anything......theres lotw of reasons why people stay or dont stay..maybe the bad storms last year..maybe the show...maybe the airport runs...who cares but i dont think it means anything....but to also use lack of people at an encore or a larger amount doesnt dimininsh a corps or make them better either...its only an encore and as far as last year , of course people liked Cadets , it was easy to view and appealed to many.........there were also many many who loved BD last year and this year...yeah yeah I know we all know the majority who liked or didnt like something..lol
what I am saying is I dont think an encore indicates anything...I was also there last year and this and I know I was with alot of cadet alumni during the encore and most were just socializing on the walkways but I can say the same this year , a few hootin and hollerin and most socializing
If it was just a poor showing by the Blue Devils at this year's encore, I wouldn't be saying anything.
But when you combine that with the fact that...
* there have been constant criticisms of the show all year long on BD about it not being entertaining
* many people saying they prefer Crown's show over BD's show all season long
* many people saying they don't like the direction the Blue Devils have gone with show design since the mid-2000's.
* the bloggers from the finals said Crown was definitely the crowd favorite.
* Blue Devils had an abnormally low fan vote at last year's Austin show.
* Blue Devil's show designers admitting they don't care about entertaining the crowds.
...and you'll have a hard time convincing me that the Blue Devil's had as popular a show as Crown this year or the Cadets from last year.
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i think there are few fans into encores anymore....crown or otherwise.....you can see that around the country all summer no matter who was doing it....now of course here you will hear others say the stands were packed...so all I can say is what ive experienced...which is most of the summer on tour as far as last year I was speaking to 2 cadet members ( in the stands )after their performance and there was a decent amount of people watching again but 1/2 full ...no , dont think so
So you are saying that Michael Boo overestimated how many people stayed for the last year's World Championship encore performance but he got it right this year because people just don't watch encores anymore??? Come on...just admit you are in denial that more people liked last year's Cadets show than this year's Blue Devils show. There wasn't nearly the backlash from the Cadets winning last year like there was this year with the Blue Devils.
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hmmmm i dont remember 50 % staying in 2011..i actually remember people running for the doors . I dont think the encore is what it used to be at any show.....people leave to get on the road, eat, party, with the internet and smart phones you can get scores in your car
The %'s I'm referring to are Michael Boo's estimations from the Finals Blog for both years.
Here's the link to the 2012 blog.
11:30
Michael Boo: Unfortunately, perhaps only 10% of the audience is left in the stands to witness it. Michael Reed from yesterday's Semifinals blog concurs with that figure.11:30
Michael Boo: If anyone wants to get a great seat for the run-through, they can pretty much write their own ticket. Here's the link to the 2011 blog.
11:21
Michael Boo: I think at least half the audience is staying on to hear the encore. 11:21
Michael Boo: That says a lot. The fans sure didn't seem to be in a rush to get to their car last year. I had a 9am flight the next morning but I certainly would have stayed if Crown had won.
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They please enough fans to help DCI have higher attendance in 2012 than 2011, help DCI get high attendance at Regional shows, and sell a TON of merchandise.
So 2012 increase in attendance has been directly attributed to the Blue Devils? I haven't heard that. Could it be that the higher attendance in 2012 is the result of 2011 having one of the best finals in recent history? The 2011 finals was certainly the reason why I spent $1000 on airfare, lodging, and tickets to my first finals in 20 years this year.
Regardless of the turnout of a flawed fan judging (and there's no disputing that there were a TON of great, entertaining shows in 2011: heck, I would've voted BD out of the Top 5 from a sheer "I was more entertained by" vote), there were still plenty of fans who like BD's show.
Flawed fan voting? I was at that show in Austin (hence the large airfare to finals) and the Blue Devils were a real dud that night. I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt because they were the first corp to perform but then the Cavaliers came in right after BD and ripped the roof off the house (hence the #1 vote). If the voting was so flawed then why did the fan voting practically mirror the judges placements for all but two of the corps? Did the judges get it wrong to for the other 6 corps as well?
They are not hurting for support. I would almost bet money that BD made significantly more in souvie sales in 2012 than fan-favorite Jersey Surf.
(but I would LOVE to see who sold more between BD & Crown!)
I have no doubt that BD sells more souvenirs because they have been a perennial power in Drum Corp since their inception. But can you explain to me why only 10% of the finals crowd stayed around to hear the encore performance when the yankees of Drum Corp just won their 15th championship? The year before the Cadets had 50% of the crowd remain and they are probably equal in popularity with the Blue Devils. Could it be that simply a lot more people enjoyed the Cadets last year than they enjoyed the Blue Devils this year?
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Not from where I was sitting!
Then again... I was sitting basically in the middle of BDB. So that might explain things.
Haha...I was in section 640 and the crowd definitely was rooting Crown. I'm sure people will say I'm biased but check out the finals blog.
10:10
Michael Boo: HUGE audience reaction. The fans are really pulling for this corps, alĂĄ Phantom Regiment in 2008. It's like the audience is willing them to win. 10:10
Mike Ferlazzo: Every year, there's a people's champ Michael, and even if Crown doesn't win the competitive title, they are clearly the people's champ this season.10:16
Mike Ferlazzo: AMAZING!!!! And the crowd, and Michael, are going nuts!! 10:16
Michael Boo: Big standing ovation.10:17
Mike Ferlazzo: Just like in 2008 with Phantom, the crowd is trying to will Crown to victory.There are no similiar comments about the audience during the Blue Devils performance.
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Also, as it's been mentioned before, I suspect that Blue Devils show designs please PLENTY of crowds (I also suspect that you might be correct and BD's design staff wouldn't care about not pleasing simple minded fans)
I'm not so sure that Blue Devils please plenty of crowds. At the Austin show last year when they had fan voting via text message, the Blue Devils were voted 7th by the fans. Also the rare fan vote highlights what I think why people are frustrated with the Blue Devils. The judges placed BD 3rd while the fans voted BD 7th. The BD had the largest disconnect between judges and fans at this show.
Fan Vote Difference
1. Cavaliers 1 0
2. Cadets 2 0
3. Blue Devils 7 4
4. Carolina Crown 3 -1
5. Bluecoats 6 1
6. Phantom 4 -2
7. Santa Clara 8 1
8. Blue Stars 5 -3
Here's something else I noticed. If you look at blog from the finals last year, Boo said that rough 50% of the crowd stayed to watch the Cadets encore performance. However, this year, Boo blogged that only 10% of the crowd to watch the Blue Devils encore performance. That's a huge difference and I guarantee you that if Crown won a lot more than 10% would stayed. I was in the audience and the crowd was definitely rooting for Crown.
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And for the last 20ish years, they execute REALLY well. People are putting a lot of stock in BD's show designs (which are effective and hit all the high points on the sheets), but BD also executes better than most in all captions.
That's true: their shows seem to get plenty of reaction from everyone in the activity: more so than most corps.
I'm SO OK with not every corps pandering to the lowest common denominator or mass broad appeal. Not every movie needs to be a mindless, thoughtless blockbuster summer movie (and nor does every movie have to be a groundbreaking, thought-provoking masterpiece like Citizen Kane, or 8 1/2 or something). I LOVE that Finals night brings a pretty wide spectrum of show designs: you literally had a 'tribute' to dadaism followed by the Uncommon man followed by an opera followed by Christmas tunes! I love that all four of those shows are wildly different, and would hate for every corps to design the same styles.
No one is asking all corps to play the exact same style. Drum corps have their own styles just like movies have genres like drama, comedy, sci-fi, or fantasy. The Blue Devils have done crowd pleasing championship entertaining shows in the past (2003 for example) so I know they know how to do it. They simply don't care about pleasing the crowds anymore.
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So could you please release no here your findings of who the fans in the stands voted for as #1? Looks like your implying that BD didnt win So im guessing you went and polled every single person and came out with different findings?
As far as us experts here on DCP I didnt know I had a vote? Someone please tell me next year so I remember to vote. It appears that DCI needs my expertise!!!
All I am implying is what has been said over and over again on DCP throughout this season. The BDs are really good at executing shows that many people don't get or like. The judges like and reward the execution.
As far as DCP having a vote, you're right we don't have a vote to determine the champion. But as the topic of this thread indicates, will the BDs victory mean more corps are going to focus on executing shows like BDs that no one likes? If so, fans may begin to cast the ultimate vote and walk away from the activity.
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Why can't some people just bring themselves to admit that BD has a VERY strong orgnization as a whole from top to bottom. I'm not talking about the kids in the "A" corps that we see on the field in any given year. I mean the administrative staff, the instructional staff, the recruiting, the fund raising, the parents, the volunteers and the alumni who keep it all going. They're nothing short of phenonmonal. If they finish outside of third at finals people are shocked! That my freinds is the sign of an extraordinary orginization. I'm no BD wonk, but I for one salute them for their achievements. They deserve every bit of it.
I have never seen anyone on this site suggest that the Blue Devils aren't a "VERY strong organization."
I have seen many people who dislike their shows.
Not sure why people are dinging mikespeed for his comment. I have never said anything about Blue Devils NOT being a strong organization as they obviously know what it takes to win. My respect for them as an organization still doesn't change my opinion of their recent shows.
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To the people who judge these contests they were the best this year. Putting it all into perspective, you win by being the best. They were the best
You're talking about the judges and there's no disputing who the judges liked. I'm talking about the fans in the stands and the loud voices of discontent on DCP. There's considerable debate about who the fans wanted to win this year. I'll also add this debate was mostly absent from last year's contest.
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I'm sure you realize that the pinnacle of design is not "difficult:" it's "effective." Blue Devils visual design was very effective, and executed very clean for the most part. Crown visual design was also effective, but not marched as clean. The only person to blame in the "Crown's drill was harder and that's why it was dirtier" game is Crown's visual designer. BD designed effective drill that was attainable at a Championship level. Crown designed an effective drill that was not quite attainable at a Championship level.
Once Crown's visual designer figure out that super difficult fine line of designing effective drill that is attainable (they are very, very close), they will have a much better shot at winning DCI.
Here's the deal...I would love to see more corps attempt drills like what Carolina Crown did this year but that's not going to happen if clean/average drills are rewarded over challenging/not as clean drills.
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I agree. There are always some fans that don't think a Corps should have won, but most people acknowledge it seems to me that BD had no section weakness compared to Crown. Crown had a percussion section issuethis season and this was their achilles heel vs. BD all season long. BD show seemed to be controversial, but to most observers surely most believe that the judges got it right regarding BD being the deserving champion over Crown on Finals Night. Crown was 6th at Finals in percussion. 'Can't win a Title when you're 6th in a caption, so that was that for them. And BD was undefeated against all challengers this season too. Their win on Finals night appeared hardly " controversial ". More like a foregone conclusion after the Quarters it seemed to me.
The BD/Crown debate is much more than some fans that think their corp should have won. If you look at the DCP archives from last year, you wonât see nearly the amount of fans complaining about the Cadets winning than you do this year. And this debate is also much more than âoh Iâm so jealous the Blue Devils have a million championshipsâ. A lot of people have been frustrated with Blue Devils shows since the mid 00âs. People are frustrated that Blue Devils are winning with shows that they donât enjoy.
I never marched with any corp so Iâve always been a bandwagon fan. I jumped on the Cadets bandwagon in the late 80âs when I first started watching drum corp. Then I became a huge fan of the Cavaliers when they started dominating in the early 00âs. So why have I not jumped on the Blue Devils bandwagon even though I loved most of their championship shows up to and include The Phenomenon of Cool? I really do want to like their recent showsâŚIâve triedâŚbut they havenât clicked for me so Iâm frustratedâŚreally frustrated when they win over other corps more deserving (CC in 09 and 12 and Cavaliers in 10).
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I'm not sure the gymnastics scoring system can ever parallel what we do in drum corps. Drum corps is just too complicated. You can't set a difficulty factor for each component the way you can for a double this or a backward that with a twist. Also, in gymnastics, several judges evaluate a single gymnast. It's far easier for them to parse the elements of execution than it would be were they to judge 150 brass, drums and guard over as much as 100 yards.
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I agree. There would have to be a difficulty component somehow built into the overall score. Maybe that difficulty component is built into each score given by the judge or maybe it's just a separate score given all together for the overall show.
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Did anyone watch the Men's High Bar routine at this year's olympics?
I think it has interesting parallels with this discussion because the gold medalist won the event despite having alower execution score than the silver medalist. The reason the gold medalist won was because his difficulty score was .4 higher.
Difficulty Execution Total
Gold 7.9 8.63 16.53
Silver 7.5 8.90 16.40
While the gold medalist had more mistakes, he wasalso performing a much harder routine. If gymnastics was using the DCI system, then the gold medalist would not have been rewarded for performing a harder routine.
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I'm sorry, but are you naive enough to think that the DCI sheets have ANYTHING to do with your personal enjoyment of a program?!
Blue Devils won in 2012 because they were effective (note: effective DOES NOT equal entertainment) and because they were very clean. If Crown was cleaner, they would've won: it's that simple.
Cadets won in 2012 because they were very effective and clean. Not coincidentally, their show didn't radically change design-wise from June-August, yet they didn't start winning shows until they got clean.
I'm continually amazed at how many people seem to lack the understanding that DCI is not so much about designing the pinnacle of an entertaining show, but about design an effective show and then executing it near-flawlessly. While Blue Devils were not perfect in their Finals performance, they were significantly cleaner than everyone else in almost every caption. If Crown marched cleaner, and if their percussion section was quite a bit cleaner, they would've won. It really is that easy
No, I'm not naive. I feel this way because I've been watching drum corp for 25 years and never have I been so unsatisfied with a repeat world champion as I have been with the Blue Devils over the last 6 years.
Now, I'm not saying my 25 years of drum corp makes me more special or makes my opinion more valid. I'm only sharing it because if i had felt this unsatisified when the Cadets were dominating the 80's or the Cavaliers were dominating the 00's then I would think it's just me not liking the reigning drum corp again.
But because I've generally agreed with the judges in the past AND the fact that there is so much consternation from other fans about BDs winning right now, I definitely believe there is some merit to our argument here.
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good to know you represent all like 50,000 people that saw the show finals weekend
Well, I was at finals night. The crowd was clearly wanting Crown to win. Michael Boo even said that the crowd was trying to will Crown to a win. And after the scores were announced, I probably heard b######t about 5 times as I was walking past random people when leaving the stadium. Also, look at DCP forum archives from last year, there wasn't any angst over the Cadets winning it all last year like there is this year.
I know Blue Devil fans think this is about other fans being jealous but that is not the case. The championship winning show doesn't have to be my favorite show of the finals. But it does have to be in my top 5 and the last 4 Blue Devil championship winning shows have been so blah to me. That's why I'm so frustrated with them winning.
Edit by MikeD: attempted filter circumvention
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DCI Southwestern Championship (San Antonio) - Saturday, July 20, 2019
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted · Edited by bchorn
clarification
This lineup order is confusing.  The press release for last year's Southwestern Championship lineup included the following blurb.Â
Once seeded in score order, corps were randomly drawn within groups of three (First through third, fourth through sixth, etc.)
However, this year's press release doesn't include such a blurb. Did they change the rules for determine lineup order?Â
Plus, on the rankings tab, Blue Devils are currently listed fourth...so shouldn't they be in second to last group of performers? Or is the score average from the entire season used to determine lineup order?ÂEdit: read somewhere else on DCP that scores from just last weekend were used for seeding.
Â