PhantomCav
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Posts posted by PhantomCav
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You aren't promoting discussion, you're promoting flaming of the corps whether you realize it or not.
No, actually I'm not. Just because you're continually drawing more out of my words than what I've actually said (due to over-sensitivity, perhaps?) doesn't make your perception the actual reality.
If anything, I'm "promoting" criticism of some of the staff. You know, the paid professionals who have their jobs because kids are forking over thousands of dollars so they can march and compete? I don't think their methods should be off the table of discussion on a discussion board designed to discuss all things related to DCI. If they don't like it, perhaps the end result should be them doing some self-evaluation. But my guess is they don't give two ##### what a DCP poster says about them. That's their full prerogative.
And the corps is much bigger than the staff. I've also been pretty clear about that. Where have I even hinted that I think someone should not go march Phantom Regiment if that's the corps they feel drawn to? I've iterated several times that my relative loved PR. They'd go back in a heartbeat if they actually could. But loving the corps and their overall experience doesn't remove one's ability to still have criticisms and grievances about particular areas, does it?
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I do have to chime in about all the talk about instructor demeanor. I do agree that it is not good to freak out on an individual and degrade or humiliate that person in front of the entire drum corps.....If there is a major problem with an individual, it should be talked out privately in a "how do we fix things" mode. However, I don't necessarily consider it a bad thing for an instructor to become a bit "emotional", "animated", or even a bit "upset", as long as comments are directed at the group or section as opposed to an individual, and it shouldn't be a regular thing. I appreciate an "engaged" instructor who "tells it like it is" and doesn't necessarily "sugar coat" everything. However, if that person doesn't also commend the group or individual on improvement or a fine job....that is no good, either.
YES. Thank you. That sums up my feelings on all of this pretty concisely (something I'm not very good at!)
And that 70s story is interesting. Thanks for sharing!
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I don't know if your friend would appreciate that you are rampantly posting what they shared with you about their experience on these boards.
They're actually fully aware of it. They also think DCP is worthless garbage, so they don't care.
In any case, at this point it's anecdotal evidence of one member, and you keep saying things as if you are in the "know". Just because you heard it from maybe a few members, doesn't mean you know everything about the drum corps and how it runs.
Nope, sure doesn't. Never said I did.
Did those things happen? Probably. I would say in most corps, someone will have a bad experience or not so great times. You paint a picture that the visual caption heads always yell at the top of their lungs at the members,
Do I? I just said it happens/happened, and implied that it isn't all that rare. And rare should be about as frequent as such behavior should in such a setting, IN MY OPINION. That is not saying it is all they know how to do.
and that is simply not the case. Where one member had a bad experience, another member the experience of a lifetime. Does that justify the wrongs? Not exactly, but my point is that Regiment is not always "bad".
Never said it was. And I've said multiple times in this thread alone that my relative had an oustanding overall time in PR.
In fact, I find it incredibly rude and disturbing that this topic has shifted to bashing the visual program. To say that they haven't been successful in feet at all and they are terrible teachers is appalling. Never in any activity have I met so many "experts" on how to properly march and how to properly play. If you're so great at it, please help out at a drum corps of your choice.
Who said Regiment has never been successful in feet? And how is claiming to be an expert on how to properly march and play? The debate has centered around behavior towards human beings.
In the mean time, please stop this nonsense. G'day.
I'm not sure I'm aware of who put you in charge of dictating discussion around here.
Thank you for all the strawmen. Maybe it would have helped if you'd actually read the entire thread before choosing to go on your tirade. G'day to you too.
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I wasn't trying get ammo for an argument. I'm sure there is some truth behind what you've heard.
I believe that there are at least as many members (if not many more) that actually enjoy this type of coaching. Not every member is belittled and the ones that are are usually slipping through the cracks and not holding up their weight.
What the Emmerts bring is a complete display of unfiltered emotion... and you know what... I think that is directly displayed in PRs performances at the end of the year.
I would guess the members who enjoy that type of coaching are the ones who don't bear the direct brunt of some of the more personal elements, but you may be right.
And you may also be right about the effects of their unfiltered emotion. But they're also still working with kids, so there should always be certain levels of restraint, IMO. I personally believe that those restraints should include not totally berating a person's ability or intelligence openly in front of his/her peers. Criticism is fine. Even better in private. Humiliation? Not sure that ever really has a positive effect in such a setting, and it should take some pretty serious insubordination to merit even considering it.
Again, just my personal opinion and philosophy.
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These are all good points and I actually tend to agree. I think there is a balance. I don't think that calling a kid F'ing fat is appropriate at all. I just have a fear as a teacher myself of being accused of being too hard on kids when in fact its kind of my teaching style. Now, I'm not like Knight at all and don't like to cuss kids and all that. But I do think that kids, especially kids that already are tough like drum corps kids, need a little lightning bolt from Zeus ONCE IN A WHILE, so to speak to wake them up and challenge them further. And I can kind of have a coach's type approach to rehearsal. That's all. There is a balance. My philosophy is this. The needs of the students are met by the teacher, not the other way around. If I need the kids to be good for my ego, then I might get a little too abrasive. On the other hand, if I need the kids to like me and be my friend, then I can get too soft. As long as I remember that I am there to serve them, then I think I can find that balance. I'm not there to coddle and be their friend and I am not there to abuse them for my own benefit. I'm there to be their teacher.
That all seems pretty reasonable to me. I agree that there should ideally be a balance. The bosses should still be the bosses, and sometimes there are some real frustrating cases when you have that many youth together. Discipline should certainly exist and be enforced regularly and fairly. I just don't think it sounds like the Emmerts' versions of those "lightening bolts" you speak of are the best way to achieve their objectives.
I could be wrong...they're the professionals in this field, after all. I'm most certainly not. I'm just a fan who has chatted some people up on the issue.
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If you like Cavs 00 and 06, you might like parts of 04 and mayyybe 02-03. A lot of the ballads in that era for the Cavs have a similar sound to them (figures, as they have the same people writing/arranging them)
But I guess if you've seen 00 and 06, you've probably seen those.
If not.....*whispers* Google Videos is your friend when it comes to finding full show recordings from past years. */whispers*
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Hey phantomcav... serious question. Did you march PR?
Nope. But like I said, I'm related to a proud former member.
They loved it. Absolutely loved it.....except for the way vis staff treated people occasionally. And the friends my relative made through the crops seem to feel the same way. Please don't mistake that for them not loving the corps and their time there.
Like I also said, I know that's anecdotal and secondhand. But considering there are plenty on here who seem to have heard similar things and feel the same way, there must be at least a little fire behind the smoke.
I'm glad that members from 08 don't seem to have had any such encounters. The incidents I've been told about happened in ensuing years, when Regiment struggled a bit more (relatively speaking, of course). And I certainly hope that every member has the time of their life no matter what the staff is like. But I just don't think that's grounds for letting them off the hook, either.
So, no I didn't march. Yes, I know that means I'll never "know" like those who did. But I also want to be clear that I love PR and Cavaliers. They're different in pretty much every way, but I appreciate them both for what they put out on the field. And the members and former members I met through family and school have been pretty great people, too. I think they all deserve staff that respond accordingly. I can see that some former members of PR disagree with me, and they're obviously fully entitled to. I think we've reached "agree to disagree" territory.
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Very nice, I'll have to give some of that a listen.
I'll admit that the first time I ever saw the 1996 show, I thought it didn't seem like a 1st place show.
But man, after seeing it a few more times and familiarizing myself with it, it's one of my all-time favorites.
Admittedly, I wasn't all too familiar with a whole lot of Shostakovich before seeing A Defiant Heart, and I think that had a lot to do with my initial reaction. I've gladly remedied that problem as well.
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I really doubt that all of those coaches you mentioned are as cuddly in private as they are in front of the camera.
Phil Jackson might not be cuddly, but he's pretty open about his philosophy. His approach is all mental and fairly passive outwardly. Granted, he's working with multimillionaire professionals. He took incense to Bulls practices in the Jordan era, for cripes' sake. That's almost taking to too far the other way, but hey, whatever.
Of course, one could argue that instead dealing with kids, specifically ones who already have paid thousands of dollars in fees, some of which go to pay the staff, only further enhances that they deserve better treatment.
Edit: And I understand Phantom's military heritage in that it came out of a VFW corps whereas the Cavaliers were a Boy Scout troop. But it isn't the military. At the end of the day, it's marching band. (Yes, I went there)
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I know this is off topic but its a good off topic. The problem is is that a lot of parents and kids equate getting pushed hard with being treated like crap. Some kids and parents push back with this threat of calling it abuse or lawsuits when you drive a kid hard. I'm talking about making a kid run for ticking or similar punishments. And sometimes you can do humorous stuff. Every old timer I'm sure has some staff story. The fact is, BOBBY KNIGHT used to bring his basketball team to Star of Indiana rehearsals to teach his kids how to practice. Do y'all think Bobby Knight would do the same thing today? I'm not so sure. I guess I'm just a little old school.
Bobby Knight also continually threw tantrums that reflected poorly on his program, his team, and himself. And he was fired from a job he had to try hard to lose (and almost fired at the next one).
Maybe you're in the camp that think IU was wrong to terminate him, but I think most who aren't blind Hoosier faithful would disagree with you.
Yeah, IU has 5 banners....from over 20 years ago.
Taking the basketball coaching analogy further, do you think Phil Jackson coaches that way? Does Coach K or Roy Williams? Bill Self? I've seen K, Roy, and Self mad, but never anything like Knight.
Point being, Knight's methods hardly justify themselves just in the name of winning.
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You're entitled to your own opinion, but I'm really biting my tongue on what I want to say about your posts in this thread. It's obvious you don't understand why someone would march in PR vs. Cavies, and it sounds like you've got your mind set on the "Rosemont way" of Drum Corps.
I do understand why someone would march in PR. I'm related to someone who DID. And I went to high school under a director who marched several years with the Cavaliers. So I've heard plenty of talk/stories about both and how things went.
Being treated like #### isn't one of the reasons my relative marched PR. And it hasn't been with any of the other PR members I've met as a result of that connection. Being pushed hard WAS a reason, along with loving PR's music tradition. I get that. But as I said, getting pushed hard and being treated like crap aren't inseparable by any means.
And yeah, I am a fan of the "Rosemont way". My marching career began under a successful high school rendition of it, and my college band had a similar mentality. Are those the same as the actual system and in a summer of drum corps? No, of course not, but it certainly worked in those settings. And when the Cavaliers have fallen out of the top 3 ONE TIME in 13 seasons, I think it's safe to say it works for the Cavaliers too.
Explain to me how it wouldn't work with Regiment while still preserving all of their great tradition and attitude. I freely admit my evidence is anecdotal, but it was pretty consistently so.
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Did you even read my post? i added this little gem, "Now, if we are talking about another section, I am sorry for my confusion. But the 2 instructors this whole conversation has been about have been nothing but amazing in and out of rehearsal." No need to get all offensive...
Yes, I read your post. And my post addressed your "gem."
How that is getting "offensive," I'm not quite sure.
Yes, the thread started about JD, then turned into JD and Paul. I understand that the original post about running rehearsals as professionals was referencing JD and Paul. I chose to use to post to make a comment running rehearsals as professionals involving other Regiment staff, which I don't find entirely unrelated. After all, running rehearsals professionally should apply to every member of the staff, not just JD and Paul.
My apologies for not being more clear about whom I was referencing.
And don't take any of my grievances as attacks on the corps or the kids. Those two things are great, phenomenal, top notch. The staff is not doing them the justice they deserve, in my opinion. And I think the post-Spartacus results speak for themselves in regards to how "effective" the current vis staff is with successfully implementing their methodology and philosophy over an extended period of time. It started quite well but isn't holding that trend well at all.
Another topic hijack: I think Regiment is due for another run with black uniforms. Might help bump the visual scores for a bit, as well.
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Brazale made the current staff look like a bunch of cupcake vendors. If anything, with each year they become more like the rest of the DCI staffs in demeanor, and less like the PR heritage---NOT the other way around.
.....and?
They still have a LONG way to go. And it doesn't justify them being that way in the first place.
I'm not sure that's a part of Regiment heritage to be proud of. There's plenty of great heritage in the corps to go around without all of that.
As has been pointed out in just this thread alone, you can work extremely hard and be pushed to your limit without all of that kind of crap being the driver.
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Now that most of us agree that it is in fact the visual staff who can be less than professional in and out of rehearsal...
...isn't it also interesting that visual is their comparative weak point? Perhaps there is a correlation?
If you treat the members with the respect they deserve, you will be rewarded with consistent excellence. Thank you Blue Devils and Cavaliers for proving this fact!
Exactly. Nobody marching a drum corps has motivation issues. And G8 corps hardly have talent concerns.
I understand the want to be driven hard. The people close to me from PR feel exactly that way about it. Doesn't excuse or justify the abrasive treatment, and they would be just as quick to tell you that. They love Regiment IN SPITE of the visual staff and their methods, not because of them.
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Gotta say...I marched PR for three years and never once had anyone yell at me. I enjoyed every minute. As to the reason JD left...all of this discussion is just speculation for entertainment purposes. Only he and a few others know the true reason and I'm sure they wouldn't want that discussed on a public forum. I am not an insider by any means and do not know myself, but am concerned about the impressions of the corps that some posters are leaving. While I believe those that say incidents might have occurred, I do not believe it is the norm. Otherwise, why would kids be beating down their door to march? A bad reputation will follow you. A good program will draw you. Onto the 'management'. I agree with the poster that said it seems to be the "Godfather" of drum corps mangement. Some shake-ups would be a breath of fresh air, but only if the new folks knew of the history, pride, and traditions that go along with PR. That said, an alum might make the best choice, but I don't have any suggestions! I'm sure the Regiment will remain true to who they are and will hire a wonderful new brass arranger. SUTA!
What years did you march?
I'm talking about recent years with the current visual staff. 2010, if we want hard dates.
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Umm This is the biggest pile of crap Ive read on here in a while. In my couple years marching Phantom Ive never once seen this, or heard Paul or JD berate ANYONE!. Now, if we are talking about another section, I am sorry for my confusion. But the 2 instructors this whole conversation has been about have been nothing but amazing in and out of rehearsal.
I'm talking about the vis staff. And it's not a pile of crap, because some of it happened to a person I'm very close to.
Paul and JD were probably fed up with it, for all I know.
After all, Paul went to SCV, which under Fiedler is treating their members like the Cavies do/did.
Ironically enough, a former member of Phantom who is now at SCV was complaining about that in front of me once. Said the staff is too "soft" and that's why SCV's brassline wasn't any good.
And I think most kids march Phantom in spite of the treatment and staffing issues because they like performing and like being in a corps that has the tradition of Regiment, especially with music when it comes to the hornline. That doesn't mean they like everything about the corps. Why not treat them better and maximize the positive experience?
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Phantom Regiment seems to be the Godfather of drum corps from an admin/staff perspective...Especially given those who actually control the corps.
I'd certainly hope two adults could run an ensemble rehearsal professionally, by the way. That doesn't mean anything with regards to their personal relationship. Nor does it say anything about them as individuals.
PR is a troubled corps. Beloved, yes. But troubled.
But from what I'm told, they really don't, especially when the public isn't around. I suppose that's all a matter of opinion, but screaming at and berating the kids for mistakes isn't the "professional" way to run a drum corps. Nor is making a member stand out in the rain for two hairs straight holding up a horn for letting a laugh slip out during rehearsal.
Take the Cavaliers' mentality: They treat the kids as absolute professionals. They expect hard work and they get it, but they don't tear someone down in the process. Flip all of that upside down and you get a "bad day" at Phantom Regiment rehearsal. Some call the Cavies a part of Drum Corps Country Club. I call it common decency towards some very committed and talented individuals.
I suppose that makes me "soft" to some people. I've had dear friends march in both corps, and they both seem partial to their own system...but when I hear how Phantom works when there aren't public eyes around compared to the Cavaliers, it just makes me sad. I'm all for discipline and hard work, but there's still a right way and a wrong way to do that, IMO.
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Well, you know, people have 'personal falling outs' - and get over it. But sometimes, professional fortitude plays best when the persons involved in this are free to develop the music into a theme so it works. I've heard different things where it was 'one way' or no way........ and that wasn't from the brass or perc people either! Never knew the two caption heads had a falling out, but again I STRESS........ I was/am not an insider. Just watched their relationships at many a practice, rehearsal & run throughs is all.
You're right, and I hope that, if there are/were problems, they eventually work them out, if for no other reason than because that's just how friends and former coworkers should ideally leave things. No sense carrying around negative feelings.
They certainly created some great music together between the brass and percussion.
And the problems within the PR staff are unfortunate, mostly for the kids. Honestly, from the sounds of it, I don't think if would be terrible if Rick Valenzuela cleaned out a few more spots. But I'm probably overstepping my actual knowledge and understanding with that.
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----- SCV would possibly offer alot of 'perks' I would think to obtain a quality arranger like JD, who has worked well in the past with the other key caption head, Paul Rennick.
I hesitate to put this on here, but my understanding is that the members were under the impression after Paul left that it was in large part due to a falling out with JD and wanting to move on to a corps with different music.
Whether reality reflects that, I have no way of knowing, as I know neither gentleman personally, but many in the corps seemed to be under such an impression.
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Regarding DCI drum corps, what did you see and/or hear this season, on or off the field, that was a pleasant surprise?
Regiment's whole show, really. When I heard it was going to be very heavy on ballads and themed after Juliet only, I was honestly a little skeptical.
Turned out absolutely beautifully.
I also wasn't sure how Empire State of Mind or Creep was going to translate to drum corps, but I enjoyed both of those as well.
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In '73 (or '74 ... it's a long time ago! ;-), we were almost run out of town because a couple of our marching members had tennis shoes with Stars & Strips on it. It definitely was NOT a US flag. Never-the-less, we were the "godless hippie Communists from California"!
Sounds about right.
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I think the point is that the G8 represents the epitome of drum corps. Flag code is flag code, and even during the 70's post-Watergate era was observed as proper presentation of the colors. Either do it right or don't do it at all; corps at the G8 level should know.
This.
Maybe it's just the Eagle Scout in me getting fired up, but trivializing Flag Code really just reflects poorly on the person complaining, not the people trying to get it done right and with proper respect and dignity.
I'm trying to remember which G8 corps didn't have one. I sure hope it wasn't my Cavies, given their Boy Scout roots, but I can't remember right now!
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Where does anyone think the next few new corps will come from?
Texas. There is too much high school talent down there for a strong corps to not pop up and keep some of those kids home rather than going elsewhere.
But more on the original post, I would have no problem if every finals was won by a corps from Illinois.
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I think the prologue music of the animated movie would make a great pre-show for the pit to play then the corps is announced and the full hornline comes in with the "Little town" part of the first musical number that Belle sings after the prologue followed by the more fast paced stuff for an opener.
I haven't thought about this before... I swear
I was in the pit orchestra for a (high school) production of Beauty and the Beast.
Awesome music for sure.
Also, on Harlem Nocturne...I appreciate it's use, but as a saxophonist, it pains me to hear an all-brass ensemble encroaching on my territory!
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JD Shaw steps down as Phantom Regiment brass arranger?
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
The obvious difference being, of course, we don't live in those times. Cultures change. So does the measure of acceptable behavior. People were harder then, but so were times. I'm sure most of us born then would have adjusted opinions accordingly.
But anyway, I've ruffled far more feathers than I ever intended to (believe it or not). Just was speaking my mind. Didn't mean to offend.
I'd take it all down for the greater cause of peace and harmony, but I think with all the quoting going on, my posts would still be showing up in those of others.
My sincerest apologies to anyone I've offended. Like I said, I never intended to talk down the Phantom Regiment itself or any of its members past or present.
I don't think this DCP thing is really for me, so y'all take care.