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Posts posted by lcarlton

  1. On 8/30/2019 at 2:20 AM, Mooman said:

    Looking for a set of 3 valve G horns

    I am a former member of the Disneyland Magic Kingdom Korps (Yeah... that’s how they spelled it.)

    Some of us old guys were thinking about playing as a group again but access to G horns is a big problem. We are looking for:

    3 or 4 Sopranos

    1 or 2 Middle Horns (Mellophones preferred)

    3 Baritones

    1 Euphonium

    3 Contras

    Any suggestions would be appreciated.



    PS: I am a newb to this forum so feel free to move this thread to a more appropriate place

    The Columbus Saints will begin selling off G Bugles in the coming months. There is a mix of Dynasty, Kanstul and more that will be up for sale. The Kanstul's are tentatively spoken for by a local corps, but the Dynasty's should be available. 

  2. 1 hour ago, cybersnyder said:

    Maryland mandated that the school year cannot start until after Labor Day, a gift from the governor to Ocean City - another week of hotel / rentals for them in the season.

    Which is pretty ironic since we would go to Ocean City for vacation after DCA the years it was in Annapolis. Almost empty; cheap drinks, and good food.

  3. 56 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

    Thanks for that very helpful reply!

    (Obviously we disagree on this last paragraph, but I've already explained in my response to BigW about how I think Ohio bands stack up (as regards Central Crossing: they had an annoying but eventually impressive show two years ago before slipping last year -- although I gather there were some extrinsic circumstances at play). Until two years ago, I would have said that some twenty or more Ohio high school competition bands were better than CT -- even though their DCA placement jumped from fourth to first (merited, compared to the competition) and their score from 73 to 80 in 2016 (not merited, in my view). But in 2017, CT showed what I thought was great improvement, earning the score they'd received the year before, and last year they were, if anything, a bit underscored. As for OMEA, as shown here (you have to navigate Menu > Calendar of Events > Search > Type > Marching Band > Marching Band Local) their first competitions this year (at Circleville, Cloverleaf, Licking Heights, Philo, Springfield, and Troy) aren't until Sep. 14 -- and in none of the past five years, which is as long as I've been following OMEA super closely, have they had a competition scheduled on Labor Day weekend. BOA doesn't have any events until Sep. 21. Are you perhaps thinking of MSBA, the circuit in southwest Ohio / southeast Indiana / northern Kentucky? They do have, and have long had, one show on Labor Day weekend: the "premiere" event at Northmont, where bands receive comments but not scores. Though at the moment, no band from the greater Columbus area is signed up for that contest.)

    Yes, you're correct; it's MSBA thanks for the correction as I often get them confused scheduling wise especially since it's also usually a major OSUMB weekend which impacts our Saints members who are also OSUMB alumni. There are also three large Labor Day parades which impact us as students aren't able to get released from the parade by their directors (this just happened earlier this month).

    Until we switched to DCA, we had students from some of those local bands like Butler, and Carrol which is why I get them confused. We've been asked to not engage students from certain schools by their directors; other competition schools in the area have banned their students from participating in DCA as well. It's a weird bag; we basically have to wait for some some students to come to us; wait for some to graduate; or pull from non-competitive schools.

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  4. 12 minutes ago, C.Holland said:

    Incidentally, if a 3-4 day trip on a charter bus costs about 2200-2500, the fees passed along to the membership result in around $50 if you can fill all seats on the bus. 

    Buses are a lot more expensive than that at least in Ohio. It's averaging more like $2K a day for your trip; So for larger corps a trip from PA to OH could end up being $8--10K for two buses from PA/NJ area. We've gone on tour using buses in the past and it's cost us $6-9K for a 2-3 day trip for just one bus. This is just life for a lot of the Midwest and Southern DCA corps; when I marched Tradition we didn't have buses and we just drove to Annapolis on our own. 

  5. 8 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:

    I don't know Robert Davis, but if you want me to say a few words to Meg Beavers about the virtues of DCA... well,  I'm sure that would make absolutely no difference either.

    But seriously, after last year's show, Cincinnati Tradition has staked a claim for being stronger than any high school band in Ohio, and any band director ought to be proud to have a student participate in CT. The Saints had a long way to go (though I haven't seen this year's show yet), but maybe they can ride CT's coattails for now.

    Do corps find any difference between members whose experience comes from competition bands and members whose experience comes from show bands? Should the Saints be making their presence known at Johnstown or Gahanna Lincoln or Olentangy Orange or (insert other large Columbus-area show band here)? I was struck last fall when attending a (northeast Ohio) band festival that the host band, a competing group, had more drill than the other ten bands in the show combined. However, at that early (September) event, some of the festival bands had a stronger sound than the competition band (which was about as big as the biggest of them). Are the directors of show bands more or less likely than the directors of competing bands to be friendly towards corps?

    We've have / had members from those schools and those directors are well aware of our program; Mr Davis at Gahanna Lincoln offered to let us use their drums after our trailer got stolen so we could march in a local parade. Craig Dunn is well known here and one of our staff members is on staff at Orange currently. With both of those schools there are already scheduling conflicts due to band camp; and since the first game happens the Friday of DCA, all of our HS members aren't allowed to miss the game so we can't leave till 1130PM for Saturday prelims.

    We do often pick up kids from Show Bands; but a lot of those kids aren't interested in drum corps , indoor, or color guard instead focusing on marching at OSU or OU. Gahanna Lincoln and Orange have pretty consistent pipeline into OSU and OU Bands for a very very long time. Our drum major went to Orange too, and he also marched OU and OSU; his interest in drum corps came after he graduated and since then he's done WGI Winds too. We try to target rural students from show style of non-competing corps style bands as the impact the members can have on their program after marching is huge. We don't have ANY students from Columbus City Schools; and even then we only had 1 or 2 a year with most of them struggling due to challenges in the our local school programs. We've started providing staff at little to no cost for band camps for city schools and I'm happy to say one of our original Saints from 2003 just took a job as a CCS Director. About 50% of our members are from Cincinnati; the rest are from Akron/Kent, Athens, and outside Columbus.

    Some of our issues come from our legacy as an HBCU styled program for 11 years; we were larger; traveled more; and performed more often in that style before we switched to drum corps, which has been a slow path of rebuilding. So for a lot of people when you say "The Saints" they think of those kids performing with slings, and dancing; or they think of a small drum corps of like 40 people that plays g bugles which a lot of directors absolutely hate (and refuse to let their kids participate).

    I love Tradition; being an alumni myself, but there are bands in Ohio that exceed their ability. Central Crossing comes to mind, along with a few others. Regardless, none of that matters because the first OMEA competition is labor day weekend which directly conflicts with DCA Championships so for a lot of schools it's a no-go because the members would miss the game and competition. 

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  6. On 8/20/2019 at 3:14 PM, Jeff Ream said:

    consistent at every venue in indoor? Wow sign me up for those venues!

    I'm in Ohio; and do video shoots for some WGI World, Open and A Class lines and travel with them throughout the season along with running a winterguard; its' pretty consistent at every venue in KY, IN, and OH. The biggest benefit is, you never have to worry if it's raining inside :) 

  7. 18 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:

    To return to the list of the past 25 years already posted: DCA championships will feature one fewer corps this year (14) than it did in 1995 and 1996 (15). That's essentially static.

    And it was just 13 in 1993.

    I would love for it to be more!

    The miracle may have been that DCA attendance grew to 20+ corps for roughly a decade (2004-2015).

    What was going right then that wasn't going right before then or since then?

    What was DCA doing wrong in 1993 that it was doing right in 2005?

    The biggest thing I see back then was the bump from connected media; having better access to drum corps videos, and online platforms, along with a renewed interest in the marching arts and other "community" activities.

    The different now is the marching arts have changed a lot in the last twenty years.

    1,) WGI is a major pull for young people. So while many are marching DCI they are also marching WGI so by the time they age out, they might have 3 DCI seasons, and 6 or 7 WGI seasons under their belt. A lot of these performers are just tired, and are happy to step away to begin enjoying all the things they missed.

    2.) The finances of drum corps versus indoor - it's significantly cheaper to run an indoor program. Your equipment will last longer as it's not subject to the elements. It's a consistent performer experience at every venue. Drum corps is at times more physical, but the experience varies by weather, venue and by cost. I'd argue why the number of corps in DCI and DCA starting is still so low, while you see new independent ensembles start up every year for WGI. Lower cost of entry, and lower operational costs.

    3.) HS Marching programs have grown in skill and variety. Many schools now have competitive marching band, winterguard, and indoor drumlines; so the draw to march drum corps is less and less along with the overall available time. Often directors won't release their students for even DCA drum corps rehearsals, and not even Finals so you're stuck. Many of these directors are DCI Alumni, but their view of DCA is based on the past; without a modern narrative to really counter it.

  8. 28 minutes ago, BigW said:

    Glad to know Heartliner is operating again- last word I heard on the street was that they were finished.

    They actually worked with Govies on their international trip in June to much success! They were able to bounce back, though I'm not sure if they'll ever head over to DCA again. I was marching the last time they were here; and they were friendly, and fun. Loved their airplane themed show 🙂

    • Like 2
  9. 18 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:

    So if the ten highest scoring corps in Prelims control DCA, and the administration ultimately reports to them, as you indicate...

    And eight corps were trying to leave DCA last January, as Terri has been told...

    And there were 19 corps in DCA Prelims in 2018...

    But one of those corps (Cadence) was from England and another (C2) announced last fall that they were shutting down...

    And the eight renegade corps weren't the corps that control DCA, as Terri believes to be the case...


    Then the ten corps in charge of DCA were: Buccaneers, CV, Fusion, Sabers, Cabs, Bush, CT, Hurcs, Gold, and Govies.

    And that leaves only seven corps who could have been trying to break away: Sunrisers, Skyliners, Chops, Knights, Thunderbirds, Regiment, and Saints.

    And three of those corps are inactive this year.

    It's the 10 Corps who make Finals in Open Class; and the Class A Champion. There was a vote to change the rules to extend voting rights to all corps who make finals in all classes at the last meeting but it was voted down.


    Also FYI; Heartliner has been back for like two years now doing parades, local events etc. They've been recovering quite well!

  10. 1 hour ago, BigW said:

    Interesting comments about the good old TBDBITL. Still remember that 23 page official report about their antics and I've never looked at them the same way with near as much respect since then. They're no angels.

    Well, the culture has changed overall, and from a few members and alumni we have involved it's changing still and some students like it while others dislike it. The performance quality is still so high and they have such a huge dominance in the area it's really hard to change opinions on that. Youtube has amplified that further by showing the band regularly, while also making skull sessions a wider known thing. We did rehearse at the Band Hall early season which was nice to have that support even though their members can't participate. 


    I also agree Bullfrog Brewery. Good drinks. Food was very good.

  11. 2 hours ago, JimF-LowBari said:

    Question for the above posts (except Frans lol)....

    If a band member does corps and comes back a better player/marcher how much of that shows on a field full of band members? Yes the person themselves improves but how much does the band improve?

    thought here is some directors care about the band lot more than what good is done for the individual

    In our experience; we tend to get members from schools in clusters instead of one offs. So like we'll get 3-6 kids from the same school. They return to their schools in the fall, and are able to not only perform better; but take the organizational values back which sometimes helps. In our case, our founder/CEO pushes the community angle and the idea "a rising tide lifts all boats" so the expectation is the member will go back and just be supportive of everyone with the understanding they aren't any better than the next person; they just had an opportunity. When we were just a drumline and drill team 16 years ago, it was very very effective; now we're a little smaller and a drum & bugle corps so it's not as effective but still works at some of the schools. We also offer assistance for local schools; send staff and alumni to help work band camps for free/cheap while also loaning equipment when needed to try and build relationships.

    What has happened at some locations is the directors get on board and we'll get kids for a few years till a few graduate, or the director leaves and we start from scratch. We have a cluster of kids that come from Cincinnati and have twice as many from the school than before. It tends to go like that and runs through a cycle but the scheduling is still an issue as that Friday for DCI or DCA is always a conflict. 

  12. On 8/14/2019 at 12:53 PM, Weaklefthand4ever said:

    See...that worries me to no end. The directors of those bands should be happy that they have kids who are reaching out for an additional source of education. Do they somehow get penalized for marching holes? 

    I'm guessing this comes down to outreach from DCA and the corps themselves to the directors and school system. Missing a competition because you're at rehersal with your corps....that I get. But a halftime show?!?!? 

    DCI I can kinda get. I know when I marched, I had a director who had marched troopers and one who had marched Spirit. They understood that I would learn the drill and music and would be all in when I came to the next rehersal. I just want to know what happened. Surely not all of these cats in charge of band programs have gotten somehow screwed by kids marching corps. I think my directors also understood that if I was given an ultimatum, corps would win. The level of learning was much higher and I was gonna go where the talent was. Getting an A in band was not as important to me as being the best musician I could be was. You want an All State level player so you have some bragging rites? Then let them learn from the best in the business. 

    This all sounds like an ego contest to me.

    It's a value quotient for some of the directors. Some don't see DCA, DCI Open Class, or at the time SoundSport worthwhile and such they won't let their kids go. This also impacted other circuits like MACBDA with Ohio's Warren County Jr Military Band which basically folded under some challenges with getting kids due to early summer band commitments (and more). If the experience we're providing isn't better than what their kids, or heavily conflicts with their school and state competition schedule then they'll say no. The first OMEA competition takes place over labor day ; plus the first sometimes second football game is the Friday of labor day. Some directors have a problem with their kids missing.

    In 2016 a director was furious that 6 of her students were marching drum corps and had to leave band camp 6 hours early to go to DCI FInals for SoundSport. It ended up with a parent meeting with the director, principal and superintendent. The band director was told that they don't have control over what kids can do outside of school, but also told the parents the students have to meet school obligations. So what ended up happening was the kids weren't able to carpool together to finals from the band camp site; the director REFUSED to release the kids unless it was to each of their parents/guardians so 3 parents had to drive 2 hours down to camp; pick up their kids; then load them into one vehicle for a parent to go. One kid straight up quit a week before as his director told him that since he was a section leader he couldn't leave early or lose his spot. 

    We have another school; very friendly overall but we're not allowed to actively recruit their kids. We have members from the school in the program starting as 8th graders and staying in the corps for years, but cannot actually have more from the band. These are just examples but it goes on and on. For us, the focus has been on rural schools of 50 or more; it seems to be that happy medium where directors see the value... the challenge is just convincing the kids they actually have the skill and that we'll teach them how to be better. For many it's been the gateway to getting into WGI, DCI World, and College band which the directors see and appreciate and still support programs. This isn't just an issue for our corps; had the same challenges when a lot of us marched at Tradition. 

    • Like 1
  13. 13 hours ago, brigscadm said:

    OMEA had 120 bands in their state marching band finals last year at 4 different sites.....none were big 10 clones

    Yes, and that's less than 15% of the total HS Bands, in the state, with ZERO from the largest districts in the state, save Firestone from Akron.

    State OMEA shifted in the late nineties towards Corps Styles bands placing higher so most of the non-corps style bands, or hybrid Big Ten Bands go to local non-adjudicated shows. Massive 200+ person Show Style Bands like Niles, Boardman, Stow Munroe-Falls, Hudson, Cuyahoga Falls, Green, Orange, Anthony Wayne, and sooo many others just don't participate in Marching State Finals but then go and do Concert and Solo & Ensemble.

  14. 23 hours ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

    See...that worries me to no end. The directors of those bands should be happy that they have kids who are reaching out for an additional source of education. Do they somehow get penalized for marching holes? 

    I'm guessing this comes down to outreach from DCA and the corps themselves to the directors and school system. Missing a competition because you're at rehersal with your corps....that I get. But a halftime show?!?!? 

    DCI I can kinda get. I know when I marched, I had a director who had marched troopers and one who had marched Spirit. They understood that I would learn the drill and music and would be all in when I came to the next rehersal. I just want to know what happened. Surely not all of these cats in charge of band programs have gotten somehow screwed by kids marching corps. I think my directors also understood that if I was given an ultimatum, corps would win. The level of learning was much higher and I was gonna go where the talent was. Getting an A in band was not as important to me as being the best musician I could be was. You want an All State level player so you have some bragging rites? Then let them learn from the best in the business. 

    This all sounds like an ego contest to me.

    This goes back to the Big Ten schools and local colleges. You have Ohio State University which is 1.) nearly the largest public college in the US and graduates loads of local band directors 2.) Central State University & Kentucky State which graduate HBCU Band directors locally who go and populate a lot of schools 3.) Ohio University  and Akron which while not as well known as OSUMB, has its own culture and populates band directors throughout the state 4.) Uni of Cincinnati pulls from a lot of BOA Finalist bands locally and is more friendly to drum corps.

    My point being Ohio is basically a continual cycle that feeds into itself -> 1.) Student goes to HS with a Show Style or HBCU band, who's band director went to OSU, OU, Akron, or Central State 2.) Band is very successful performing Moffett drill and sends lots of kids to OSU, OU, Central, Akron etc for Music Ed 3.) Student takes local band director job at a school with a Show Style or HBCU Band and develops the next generation. The loss of the Division 2 and 3 local corps; plus Glassmen changed all of that as WGI has risen to fill the void and allow kids to not miss band camp or any school events typically (plus it's way cheaper).

    I'm not being facetious in saying this is how it's been for 50+ years in Ohio, and is strangely growing due to the internet age. OSUMB putting out top notch videos; we have students who marched our corps and also did WGI or came from BOA bands who opted to not do drum corps and march OSUMB or OU. YOU CANNOT MISS ANY GAMES IN THE OSUMB and nearly the same at OU 110. HS Band Directors from those schools often take the same approach in our experience - "you can't miss the Friday game. You can't miss band camp for drum corps finals."

    Rural schools are a mixed bag as their directors sometimes will let one or two kids go, but when you have a band of 30 people, missing 4 to go to DCA finals is also a no-go. 75% of our corps members are from rural or non-competitive show style bands; we get minimal students from HS competitive bands. Since you can't miss the Friday game then students have to wait and leave at like 4AM to make it to 10AM rehearsal for Prelims at 4PM. For DCI; school starts the 3rd week of August, so you even have jr. corps members who do march at OSUMB and literally have to be driven back after midnight to Columbus for auditions on Sunday morning after DCI Final. For HS kids, band camp is sometimes already going on, or in week two of part-time band camp so you've missed all that and have to learn. A lot of directors see this and are like "no thanks." 

    • Like 1
  15. 9 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

    if in a competitive band, i'd say the odds are good the kids know something about DCI. in PA/NJ/DE/MD/CT/NY, there's a 50/50 shot they know about DCA only because so many instructors and band directors have been involved.

    Ohio is a weird bag; the majority of the bands are non-competitive and are Big10 Clones with some going so far to literally copy Big Ten uniforms and shows. 

    This also leads to a weird situation where we've encountered directors who outright ban, or discourage their students from marching DCI. This further goes for DCA as we had problems with that in Cincinnati Tradition and the Columbus Saints with HS students dropping weeks before finals because 1.) Can't miss the football game on Friday of DCA 2.) Director learns they are marching and makes them quit or lose their spot in band. 


    We're considering advertising in OMEA this year and potentially going to the conference and setting up a booth. 


    • Like 1
  16. 43 minutes ago, BigW said:

    Thought- while we here believe this is worth doing and has great value, it just seems many people now do not view it as such. I think there's a variety of issues in the stew that has caused that problem, and some of them are at cross purposes. For instance, I would think some view the limited performance opportunities which look to becoming even fewer a negative... yet some also think the Summer weekend commitment is too much. One can't have it both ways.

    Limited performance opportunities isn't an issue especially if you're in the south or midwest DCA corps. Tradition went the entire without a DCA show until Championships and won Class A. Chops / Govies/ and MBI would only have one or two DCA shows, and instead do like 5 or 6 DCI shows which often had slightly bigger audiences or at least on par with some DCA shows. 

    There are also a handful of jr. corps who only do 6-9 shows and don't always go to World championships like Impulse, Watchmen, Golden Empire, Vessel, and similar. I think it's more of a matter of cultivating the interest and sustaining it, which honestly is something I struggle with.

  17. There are a lot of challenges in both circuits which deal with a shifting market, and a lot of it goes to marketing; how young people consume content; more options for time and the biggest pull - WGI.

    One circuit shifted their marketing heavily digital and began putting out content consistently that gets people engaged. 

    • Podcasts
    • Live Videos
    • Ambassadors - user generated content
    • Top 10 Videos
    • Alumni Showcase Videos
    • Did You Know Content & Videos
    • Clear definition of what the circuit is; and it's goals
    • Highlighting timely relevant things like - female leadership, LGBTQ participation,  community outreach, human interest stories
    • Making the event an experience; food trucks; 5K; drum circles etc. Keeps people engaged off the field

    This stuff can be done by one to two casually engaged people primarily from you phone. I showed a DCA director how to create content on their phone at dinner in 10 minutes and they'd created posts, and scheduled 3 before we left for the evening. With platforms like fiverr; you can simply request high quality video, content and more for literally nothing which saves a lot of time too.

    Batch create content and then schedule it out months in advance; things like alumni, DYK, human interest stories are all things that can be done months ahead of time and simply scheduled. That's what the jr. circuit does in some cases; the other is not leveraging traditional small market media sources for advertising as much; 65% of all internet traffic goes to social media - if you're not actively engaged on those platforms then you're not going to reach an audience; having content to provide that audience is vital as well.


  18. On 8/10/2019 at 12:55 PM, cybersnyder said:

    First, I'm not asking for links or anything, just commenting on the absence of DCA videos on YouTube. Does DCA actively go after the videos or do people just not shoot anything? I use them as an advertisement on whether I want to go see a show or not. With the lack of videos, I never get past "remote interest". Maybe that doesn't matter because DCA is a pretty niche event.

    It's a matter of a few things: 

    Whether there is a Digital Marketing and Promotional Strategy

    Similar to DCI; corps help create content

    Corps, Circuit, or Videographer submitting DCMA takedowns

    Some DCA Corps post videos regularly on Youtube, so you may want to go directly to their channels, or follow their social media for more current updates. I had promotional videos made for our DCA show this year, and the ROI was big as we targeted adverts to within 150 miles of our city.

    • Like 1
  19. The Columbus Saints; DCA Class A, are seeking volunteers for our 2019 season and beyond. We're at a critical shortage of volunteers this season and are looking for people to help as volunteers for the following:

    • Uniform Volunteer - to aid in uniform modifications, and storage
    • Truck Driver - use your truck to move corps 24 ft trailer to and from rehearsal, shows \ stipend provided
    • Food Volunteer - Assist in making meals on show days for 50 person corps and staff
    • Tour Volunteer - Join the corps on our weekend only shows and perform general volunteer functions like water station, on site security for members, and more. 

    We need your help to have a great season! http://www.columbussaints.org/support/volunteer/


  20. 1 hour ago, BOSMarcher said:

    ...Finals staying in the same place and not finding a way to give enough incentive to encourage northern groups to travel has hurt the spread of the activity. Right now, the strongest corps is CV in my area (which is pretty strong), but it wasn't that long ago that they were a 6-8 place group. If groups like Cadets2, Bucs, or MBI had traveled south, that would have done wonders for building excitement. Creating a partnership with DCI to allow a limited number of DCA groups to perform in the regionals would have helped (I think joint local shows with DCI Open Class has been a good move). I know that is a highlight for many of the students currently in DCA, but it happens toward the beginning of their season. 

    Hopefully, I'm not rambling, but I do think the only way for DCA to survive at this point is to create some kind of partnership with DCI or encourage groups to form WGI Winds groups. There is no size limit on those groups and a relatively small group of 30 is fairly large in that circuit. Building an ensemble that way could create great name recognition for the organization, allowing them to pivot to an outdoor ensemble in the future... OR... it would allow for easier recruiting to a DCA corps. Think about it... if a DCA corps produced a quality winds group, they would be able to easily recruit at local winds shows and help spread the good word about DCA.

    I do think the other big issue is that DCA doesn't have much of a marketing presence. When I go to the DCA website right now, I can't even find last year's scores. I don't see them promoting their circuit at winter guard shows, DCI shows, or local marching band shows. Yes, it's the corps job to do that, as well, but if DCA wants to survive, it is going to have to start doing some of the lifting on its own and promote all of the groups. Awareness is key because I had great high school musicians who were thrilled when they made CV or Alliance down here in Georgia, and they were very aware of DCI. DCI just isn't an option for everyone, but if I had not told them, they would not have known about those opportunities with DCA corps.  

    Some good points and I'll add my two cents.

    - Discussions have been around moving finals to different cities. The thing that you have to remember is a lot of the East Coast corps, aren't configured or budgeted to travel outside a 3-4 hour window. So sending Cadets2 or Bucs down to Atlanta is a giant shift in the organization, and though I agree it'd have a huge impact, there would need to be some sort of pay to help compensate those extra costs. The Midwest and Southern DCA corps are already accustomed to travel so going 8 hours for a show isn't a huge hurtle.

    There are a few shows with combined DCI Open and DCA corps like Atlanta CV's show in July; I think it occuring more often would be great, though a lot of DCA corps already compete in DCI shows. There are a lot of corps like Atlanta CV, and Carolina Gold that already compete at DCI Regionals, and even the Columbus Saints made the trip down to DCI Regionals in 2016 to compete in their category back them. In fact Tradition didn't do any DCA shows until Finals in 2015 or 2016 (?) and only did DCI shows for scores so this is more or less a standard thing in the Midwest/South. These corps are in DCI's all-age class which allows them to compete as those shows.

    There are a few DCA Corps with solid WGI groups; Carolina Gold has a phenomenal WGI Winds ensemble. Winds is a challenge depending on where you're located; and to be honest once you start going down that road and understand the costs you start to question the point of even doing drum corps to be honest. The experience, the cost and more are part of the reason why you're not seeing more drum corps starting because Winds is so much cheaper and provides a consistent performance experience; no rain outs; no environment effects; consistent performing experience and stellar marketing. The issue there is, lots of young people are already choosing to do WGI instead of DCI/DCA so starting a winds group is def helpful and can have some impact on recruiting, it also can have a lot of cons.

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