dbc03
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Posts posted by dbc03
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5 minutes ago, cybersnyder said:
I thought there was ~ 1500 on his new page, new as in after the allegations came out. Surprised at that.
His "new" page is the old "The Cadets" page that he was the admin of and refused to give up. He just changed the name, I imagine a good chunk of those people have no idea that he is running the group or that they are following it
1 hour ago, fsthnds said:Has anyone seen George Hopkins post on facebook about the future of the Cadets and US Bands? A friend told me about it but I am not friends with GH on facebook
To put it bluntly, why would anyone care about his opinion on the matter? He hasn't been involved in the corps in two years and never will be again.
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46 minutes ago, FlamMan said:
Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion.
Not sure how you arrive at any other conclusion
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9 minutes ago, fsthnds said:
Just like when YEA dropped Crossmen and later C2 because they were a financial drain.
Guess you can call this Crossmen 2.0
The inverse seems more likely to me. YEA first and foremost was The Cadets, this move is almost certainly being made to keep the rest of YEA from dragging down The Cadets rather than vice versa.
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20 minutes ago, Incognito365 said:
Now sexist is being thrown out there. Jesus Christ. You do realize that ALL corps at one point or another were ALL male because they were under Boy Scout troops, right? Cavies and Madison were keeping that tradition alive. Get off your soapbox. Good lord.
If that's what you took from my message then you are just looking to fight, and I'm not going to give it to you anymore.
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3 hours ago, garfield said:
Most of your arguments here are thin, weak, and poorly-defended, but the profound nature of this statement convinces me that you have a deep and thoughtful understanding of the issue's salient points. /s
The "angry white men" of the drum corps community have done a pretty good job of bringing this activity to hundreds of thousands of kids while being among the most open and inviting activities available today. You're welcome if you can manage to hurl a Thank You out with the vomit you're spewing. You're entitled to your own opinion, and you're entitled to come here and try to make your point against the activity.
I will welcome the evidence of current systematic discrimination you describe in drum corps (to date, headed by mostly "white men"). Rule books, policy manuals, regulations...anything in writing that demonstrates your point OTHER THAN "We choose to be an all-male group". Something tells me that, for you, this issue goes well beyond whether or not Madison or Cavies are all-male.
3 hours ago, garfield said:Three panels of explanatory "outrage" that can be reduced to two that creates equity and equality: Build the wall higher than the tallest person. Everyone who didn't buy a ticket gets treated equally.
(Also, isn't this panel explanation itself oppressive and exclusionary? Do any non-white, non-male people like baseball? OK, I admit that now I'm just picking on your weak argument.)
Drum corps has done an exemplary job of being open and inviting, and the "old white men" who systematically formed and run it have done a pretty good job of bringing it to hundreds of thousands of members and millions of fans. From all of those systematically oppressive white men: "You're welcome".
You and others are ascribing a lot of beliefs to me that don't exist. I agree that drum corps is overall pretty inclusive, although I think there is room for improvement, diversity is difficult when the cost of entry is approaching $5000. As I said before, it is becoming a rich kid's game. In terms of gender and LGBTQ inclusion in corps membership it is easily the most inclusive activity that I've been involved with (It would be nice to see a better balance in corps leadership, but that's an argument for another day).
I still like and support drum corps. I go to shows, I financially support a corps, I spend free time debating how to make things better on an internet forum. Drum corps made me who I am today, and I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful to the men and women of all colors who have contributed to the activity, yes even including the white men.
I even like The Cavaliers. I imagine that like most corps they do a lot of good for their members. I typically enjoy their shows, and hope that eventually they get back to mid-2000s form (maybe expanding the talent pool would help 😝). I don't think they should exclude women though. I don't think they are bad people, I don't think they are all being intentionally sexist, I just think that in this case they are wrong and I wish they would change.
It's fine that people don't agree, obviously we all think we are right, but I've given a lot of thought to my reasons for feeling this way and I've explained them the best I can. Don't confuse the passion with which I explain my convictions with the amount I care about the specific situation. I think The Cavaliers should allow women. I'm not protesting The Cavaliers, I'm not boycotting The Cavaliers, I don't hate The Cavaliers, I'm not even telling the people with the power to fix it that they should fix it. It's a drop in the bucket of what I believe are larger societal issues.
I've tried to be respectful and not attack anyone here (with the exception of Hooters patrons, but to be fair I feel more strongly about that than Cavies), but people obviously take it very personally. If anyone felt I was attacking them personally I apologize, but I do not apologize for my opinions. If stating and defending my opinions on the activity is "spewing hate" then maybe I'll change my username to Mt Vesuvius cause DCP is gonna be Pompeii 😁
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30 minutes ago, Incognito365 said:
No no no, can't feel fine with the Rockettes or any of the organizations that was mentioned because why? They don't include men, which by your definition would be discrimination. So now we have walked into the double standards volume of your encyclopedia of bull. This is where I walk away because you can't want things to be equal but it be okay for all female organizations to exclude men. Simple as that.
Also, as a gay male, when is the all male version of Hooters opening up?! Someone needs to start this ASAP!
10 minutes ago, Slingerland said:True equality would mean that the reverse can also thus be true.
It's almost like ya'll are responding to only the first part of my post and ignoring the rest of my post because it is inconvenient to your argument. Shocking.
I don't believe I ever brought up or used the word equality, I just said I don't think that drum corps shouldn't have membership policies that discriminate against women.
You are right that allowing women only organizations but not allowing men only organizations isn't equal, but depending on the circumstances it can be equitable.
Anyway, this has been fun, but I think the conversation has gone as far as it can and I'm not going to keep responding to bad faith arguments. I realize that I'm not going to change the opinion of anyone I'm interacting with, but my hope is that maybe someone reading along will at least give their position on the matter a second thought.
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37 minutes ago, FlamMan said:
What the heck is gross about Hooters and the Miss America pageant? You better stay away from the beach and swimming pools. Ewww!!! Scantily clad Girls who are doing it by choice!
Hooters is for gross old men and teenagers who want to sexualize and objectify young women and eat food that tastes like garbage.
Miss America isn't as bad as that, but is still objectifying women, I admit that I'm not all that familiar with the details of the Miss America pageant, I've never watched it but maybe it has some value that I'm not aware of, but you asked my opinion.
I have no problem with women wearing bathing suits, I have problems with the gross men getting their jollies by ogling them
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21 minutes ago, FlamMan said:
How do you feel about the Rockettes, Hooters, the red hat club, Miss America pageant, Mary Kaye, etc?
Fine, gross, unfamiliar, gross, I consider all MLMs to be a scam.
Your real question is do I have a problem with groups that discriminate against men by membership to only women. The answer is it depends. Sometimes the benefits to women can outweigh the cons to men.
I don't even have a firm categorical disapproval of men's only groups. I can't think of any specific ones of the top of my head that I think are good, but I'm open to the idea. Maybe a support group for men who have been abused by a spouse? I just don't put drum corps in that bucket.
It's not a black and white thing, the world is complicated.
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1 minute ago, George Dixon said:
Having a private organization wanting to be all male is NOT discrimination. Legally or otherwise.
You lost the debate big time when you brought up white supremacy.
It is, by definition, discrimination. They are excluding people based only on their gender. You can argue that the benefits of having an all male corps outweigh the cons of discriminating against women, I understand the arguments for doing so, I just don't agree with them.
But instead you'd rather focus in on intentionally misinterpreting my other post instead of the actual matter at hand.
Since you've brought up legality a couple times now, I haven't claimed that an all male drum corps is against the law. Not all discrimination is illegal. They can legally exclude anyone they want. However, I personally disagree with their choice to exclude people based on gender. The courts aren't the final arbiters of morality for me.
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7 hours ago, JimF-LowBari said:
How about poor etc, etc.....
The cost of the activity on the participants is a much bigger issue than The Cavaliers not allowing women. The activity is becoming more and more a rich kid's game.
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7 hours ago, Slingerland said:
They are DEFINITELY a 'class of people' who have been discriminated against in drum corps. There's no way to argue otherwise. They are, in fact, the ONLY real group (along with bad drummers and bad guard people) who have been discriminated against BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY ARE - to wit, bad horn players.
Drum corps says "we'll take you and you and you....but YOU, bad horn player, NO, you can't join."
By definition, that is 'discrimination."
Ahh yes, you got me!
Oh wait, no you didn't.
First of all, I'll let you read the definition of discriminate: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/discriminate
You'll see that differentiating based on merit is not discrimination.
Second of all, you are intentionally making a bad faith argument and I will not engage you any further.
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5 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:
Agreed. No women cried foul last summer when Crossmen told veteran guard members to go elsewhere so they could have an all female guard
I know of at least one
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10 minutes ago, Incognito365 said:
No, but you also have the right to choose which corps you support just like they have the right to include or exclude who they want. Since you want to take it there, why even exclude anybody? Lets just allow every single player onto the field who auditions for each corps. But wait, DCI has it's own set of rules against that, just like each corps had their own set of rules...see where this is headed?
Careful, that's quite a slippery slope you've got there, don't want to fall. "Bad trumpet player" isn't a class of people that has been systematically discriminated against in our society, so I have no problem excluding bad trumpet players from drum corps.
6 minutes ago, Incognito365 said:All of this narrows down to what I said that started this whole mess.
If there were still all female corps nobody would care about there still being all male corps.
This is just not true, people will still care.
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1 minute ago, greg_orangecounty said:
I know I was discriminated & oppressed while in Drum Corps. I wanted to be a RIFLE, I was good (still am), but they wouldn't let me because I wasn't female.
For what it is worth I think you should have been allowed to be a rifle too
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1 hour ago, George Dixon said:
I can't believe you just compared all male drum corps to a white nationalist group. Read up on Harvard and it's (losing) court battles with single-sex clubs and organizations if you want to learn more about what is and isn't considered "discriminatory"
You know very well that I wasn't equating male only drum corps with white nationalist groups because you read the second part of my post. They were specifically called out as extreme examples because your argument that all male drum corps are fine because people want them is flawed.
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6 minutes ago, George Dixon said:
And they can. And apparently they want to. And apparently 150 members want that atmosphere
So - there ya go!
Lots of people wanting to do something doesn't make it right. As an extreme example, lots of people join white nationalist groups. Lots of people wanted segregated schools. Lots of people want laws against homosexuality.
I don't put all male drum corps on the same level as those things, but it is still discriminatory and wrong in my opinion. I realize that here of all places my opinion is not a popular one, but I think history will ultimately side with me.
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6 minutes ago, Slingerland said:
I think you missed something in the mission statement.
Just as I don't believe that there's anything wrong with gay chambers of commerce, the Girl Scouts, or the VFW, I don't have a problem with private institutions setting their own definitions of what qualifies an individual for membership. Guess I'm ok with letting other people live their own lives of their own choosing.
I didn't miss anything. I am aware that the Cavaliers are an all-male corps, it isn't a very good "gotcha" to point that out. I don't think they should exclude women, but I acknowledge that they do.
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13 minutes ago, Incognito365 said:
Make sure to include the all male and all female boarding schools. Guess they should go co-ed too, even though some have been that way for hundreds of years. Or the all african american colleges. Don't want to oppress anyone else.
If a corps explicitly excluded LGBTQ people would you support that? Why or why not?
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6 minutes ago, Slingerland said:
The Cavaliers are a boy band, not an "educational institution". If being all-male is the vibe they want to roll with, it's no more or less significant than any of the girl groups pictured, and makes absolutely no difference to anyone else's lives.
"Our mission is to provide members with life-changing experiences, educationally and socially, which help each individual member gain real-world life skills, musical training, and performance experience. Through the development of the character traits of dedication, discipline, and teamwork, each member of this close-knit, all-male fraternity learns what is required to be successful on and off the performance field."
That sounds like an educational organization to me
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8 minutes ago, Incognito365 said:
The oppression comment is honestly quite funny to me, being a gay male. Lets talk about being drug behind pickup trucks, robbed beat and left for dead, Stonewall, marriage, not being able to order a cake from a store, or being used as slaves for dirty old men at parties because they hid their fetishes from their wives in ancient greece. Women weren't allowed to vote, hold office, write, read, sold as livestock, etc. or not allowed to march in a drum corps because it's all male. Apples and oranges if you ask me, but not being able to march a corps because they don't allow your gender is certainly not oppresive.
I think you are vastly underselling the oppression that women have gone through over the centuries. It doesn't take anything away from the oppression that the LGBTQ community have gone through, but it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Both groups have had really ###### things happen to them
QuoteAlso, where was the outrage when Phantom decided to not allow men in their guard again after 2008? Sure there were a few, but not to the point of Madison allowing the other gender among their ranks.
For the record, I was against this as well and have said as much.
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5 minutes ago, Incognito365 said:
No but if women had their own corps that men weren't allowed in nobody would say anything because they would have a "safe space" from men.
Yes, exactly, because there are differences based on historical context.
QuoteIt's simple as that. Nobody is talking oppression. You don't have sororities allowing men in do you? Or fraternities allowing women in. It's the same thing and anyone who says otherwise is in denial.
There are both sororities with men and fraternities with women. Since we're all coming from a music background KKY and TBS are examples of both.
QuoteNobody here can help that there aren't any all female corps still alive and well, but if there were Madison may not have felt the need/pressure to make the move in this PC world we live in. Which I believe has gone too far, and no it's not because of Madison.
And I don't believe that any educational organization should exclude women. There is no good reason to do so, and history will look on them in the same way that we now look on "white only" organizations from 50 years ago.
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13 minutes ago, George Dixon said:
Carets and many others were exclusively male for many decades
the USA senate was exclusively male and now it’s not
the presidency has been all male
Are you trying to refute or prove my point?
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3 hours ago, Incognito365 said:
There's always that one...
There isn't a long history of systematic oppression of men perpetuated by female-exclusive groups, so the two aren't comparable.
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9 hours ago, Incognito365 said:
I said this before and I'll say it again.
If there were still all female corps nobody would blink an eye about bringing up the brotherhood that the Cavaliers and Scouts have/had that made them unique in a negative light.
Not sure why saying they lost their identity by bringing in all genders is considered bad now.
I would
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Cadets 2020
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
I don't know, but we better have 5 pages assuming they aren't so that people have their chance to ##### about something they don't know about