Matt_S
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Posts posted by Matt_S
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I'm sorry, but it is not that simple. Within the DCI tour's predefined number of show dates, any proposal that takes 9 shows and designates them as available only to G7 corps means there are less shows available to the other corps. That is simple logic.
Perhaps this is better illustrated by looking at a different example corps. Do you expect the Crossmen to have the same show access and local exposure when three of the season's Texas events are off limits to them?
First, you'll need to explain what you mean by the DCI tour's predefined number of show dates. You seem to be under the belief that the World Series will be taking over existing shows and forcibly excluding the remaining corps from competing. Everything I've read states that these 9 shows are to be held independent of the DCI schedule - meaning the Mandarins and the Crossmen and whomever else will still have the same opportunities to compete that they had before. Here are the lines to support my interpretation:
The schedule assumes that all corps will continue to participate in the DCI Tour including the Friday / Saturday focus shows and the DCI Championships which produce the vast majority of the income that DCI shares with all corps. The shows are also scheduled so as to not interfere or compete for audience or income with corps sponsored shows on the DCI schedule.
We are planning the Series as an independent subset of the drum corps community. It is our hope that we can cooperate with Drum Corps International <line garbled> and does not interfere with our or other organizations participation in the DCI tour (other than these event dates).
If you think the Mandarins or Crossmen are going to be denied the opportunity to compete as often as they did in 2010, please point me to the place in the proposal where you find the basis for this belief.
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That's where "Tom in Phoenix" said they would be. If that's not accurate, I'll fix the map.
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What?
Clearly, fewer shows for the Mandarins deprives them of direct revenue-earning opportunities via appearance fees....but it also deprives them of the exposure they need to get a fair read from the judges and the opportunity to reach more fans. It is a vicious circle, where less shows for "lesser corps" creates a self-perpetuating disparity within DCI world-class.
As I read this proposal, the Mandarins are free to perform the same numbers of shows as they always have. The only difference is that the World Series corps might be at their own shows that night instead of at shows with the Mandarins. The number of shows doesn't appear changed by this, only the participating corps. If you think this means less revenue and less fan exposure, well yes, you're right. That's the point.
The Cavaliers are not locked into any specific business model, nor is any other DCI corps. They are free to leave DCI at any time. More importantly, they are free to run multiple programs, some within DCI and some elsewhere. If they are so capable of generating revenue independently, they should do so in the manner of Blast!, BD Entertainment, or the numerous drumlines performing at NFL, NBA and other sporting events. And once they do that, if they still want to run a DCI program too, they should do so in compliance and cooperation with DCI rules and policies.Isn't that exactly what the Cavaliers are doing? They are performing a handful of field shows outside of the DCI schedule, and leaving the DCI schedule intact. As stated in Jeff's text:
"The schedule assumes that all corps will continue to participate in the DCI Tour including the Friday / Saturday focus shows and the DCI Championships which produce the vast majority of the income that DCI shares with all corps. The shows are also scheduled so as to not interfere or compete for audience or income with corps sponsored shows on the DCI schedule. Shows are planned and are being finalized in the following locations."
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Until they change their qualifications again, when blue stars or anyone else are on the verge of joining their exclusive club.
Again.. why 7? Some years its only top 5 that are the draw and theres a big drop after then. Some years its top 8. Some years, like this year and last, you have a top 12 that is very entertaining top to bottom. And why *these* 7. Crown and Bloo are newcomers here relatively. If we're talking crowd draw, why isnt madison in here? They draw a huge crowd, even in their down years.
I actually agree with you there. Personally I think this proposal could be extended to include Boston and Blue Stars quite easily, perhaps the Madison Scouts if they continue showing the improvement they've shown this season.
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Then why aren't they going off on their own?
If these seven corps split and form their own organization, then they would compete directly with what's left of DCI for the best markets, venues, and Saturday night shows. That would certainly be more harmful to the remaining corps than anything contained in the World Series concept. The World Series idea strikes me a plausible compromise, one that allows DCI to continue in the same shape and form.
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Interesting that the qualifications for inclusion went from top 8 for 3 consecutive years to top 7, right as a certain non-g7 corps is about to meet that threshold... Confirming what many thought the first time... they'll never *really* let anyone join their club, this is about locking out new competition.
The qualification went from top eight for three years to top seven for two. Perhaps that does leave the Blue Stars out for now, but you'll also notice that there is no language to state that participation in the World Series will be determined by the DCI board. A top seven finish for two years is the only requirement described, meaning the Blue Stars are entirely capable of earning their participation on the field.
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Second - it is not worth a shot to try something new if that new thing is at the expense of others. This is a direct frontal assault on DCI as an organization and all other corps that fall under the DCI umbrella.
I read nothing in the proposal that is directly harmful to any other corps. The only way to claim this proposal is indirectly harmful is by way of saying, as one poster did, that fewer shows where the Mandarins compete with the Cavaliers is less revenue for the Mandarins. I'm not unsympathetic to that complaint, but in making that case you've flatly conceded the World Series corps' point that they are the draw.
Not to get too Rand-ian on you, but what claim does the Mandarins have on the Cavaliers continued presence other than "need"? Is the need of the Mandarins sufficient in itself to hamstring the Cavaliers into a specific business model for perpetuity? I say no, and I'd sure like to see a defense of that claim, if you can give it.
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But.. they already *do* receive more. Its not like theyre on a level playing field as is..
Clearly the presence of these proposals indicates that the World Series corps believe they are capable of earning more on their own than what DCI is currently providing them. The backlash against this proposal indicates that everyone else knows those seven corps are right.
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But in general, I don't really care for the top 7 approach. I like the typical shows with 2-3 open class/all-age corps and 4-5 WC corps with a variety of skill levels. It's better for the health of drum corps in general. As they say themselves, two or three G7 corps will draw a lot of folks who wouldn't come to see the rest of the bill, but may well end up becoming fans of. An all-G7 show, though, would kill attendance at all-non-G7 shows in the area.
This one section I think I can reasonably disagree with. If I were to introduce someone to the activity with the intent of making them a continued fan, I'd much rather have a G7 show to take them to instead of the current midweek show with one or two of the G7 in attendance. Like anything else, the drum corps activity only has one chance to make a first impression, and with the way DCI shows are currently set up that first impression is likely an Open Class corps or a World Class quarterfinalist. Nothing against those corps, many are primarily 'teaching' corps, but few are the best and brightest in terms of the entertainment product they offer.
Drum corps shows right now start slow and end big. That might work for those of us who are already hooked, but it's not very helpful when we try to show others what all the fuss is about. I'm reminded of fellow DCPer garfield's anecdote from earlier this year. He brought four friends to the show which he runs - none of them stayed through to the halfway point. They sat through sweltering heat to see a senior corps performing its first show, a middle-of-the-pack Open Class corps, a corps in its very first year of World Class, and at best they stuck around long enough to see the Madison Scouts. They left at halftime, and missed seeing the Blue Stars, the Bluecoats, the Cavaliers and Carolina Crown. Imagine if his four friends had attended a show that started out with those final four, and closed with The Cadets and Blue Devils. Maybe they still wouldn't have stuck around, but I have to think the odds would have been much increased.
To that end, I'm intrigued by the World Series concept. Right now, we split up the drawing power of these top corps (whatever it may be) by sprinkling a few of them at a show here and a few of them at a show there. If that star power were instead consolidated into single shows then I would feel much more comfortable bringing new fans with me. I'd know that they were seeing the very best the activity has to offer, and they could take it or leave it on those terms.
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Last year's pre-show from Carolina Crown. My favorite part of their program was actually from the beginning of the recording through to Brandt Crocker's announcement. Loved it.
Madison 2003 immediately came to mind when I saw the title of this thread. I loved the percussion rhythm they were pounding out, followed immediately by the shout from the brass. That remains an underrated show.
SCV that year was also terrific. It wasn't a single impact like some of the other nominees, but it was perhaps the best gradual build to an opening hit in DCI history.
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I'll be staying in a nice one-bedroom apartment on the northwest side of Indy, not far from the Pyramids.
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Thank you for proving my point, every word of it.
Very well. If you see no need for my respect, then I have no need to show you any. Guys, I believe it's time to stop feeding this particular troll. Topic closed.
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Wow. And I'm glad that the people who complain most about DCP can be counted on to jump on a person who gives a valid opinion. Before you call me troll, read my posts. I'm pretty sure I've had many more positive comments than you during my time here.
You came to a internet message board where members are getting excited for Championships this very weekend - those that are going and those that wish they could be there - and you brag about not seeing a DCI show since 2007. Yes, that behavior sounds trollish to me.
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I'm amazed at some of the comments. Automatically, if you disagree with current drum corps styles, you are a "dinosaur".
Simply disagreeing with current drum corps styles doesn't make you a dinosaur. We all have different tastes and we all like what we like. If you post that you don't like current drum corps styles and do it with respect, I guarantee you'll find respect shown to you in return.
However, when you go to a forum dedicated to discussing current drum styles, a forum populated by fans of those styles, and post something bellicose like this:
I went to be entertained. I expected to be "wowed" right out of my seat by somebody or something at some point. It was a drum and bugle corps show after all. For all the education, technique etc. that these young people are acquiring these days, I expected a lot I guess. It's suppose to be so much better than year _ _ _ _. The shows were boring. Period. I wasn't the only one who thought so, and I wasn't the first one to leave early.I'm the paying customer. You're doing this stuff for the customer, right? You're suppose to be entertaining the customer, right? I'm saying, I didn't find it entertaining. I can appreciate the hard work and effort, but it is not entertaining. Why should I feel like I have to analyze the show and what they are trying to convey to me? Why are you musically inept if you really just wanted entertainment? To call someone musically inept because they don't like the show is ignorance. Drum corps have always done somebody else's music. So why can't I recognize it anymore?
I don't believe I have to be politically correct and all "warm and fuzzy."
You know, if somebody keeps telling you you're wonderful, if you hear it enough, that's exactly what you will think you are... but it doesn't make it true.
then yes, you can expect to be called a dinosaur. I find it very telling that your first post began with you announcing that you expected to be flamed. You knew from the start that you were couching your opinion in terms that were going to antagonize. Forgive me if I don't indulge your sense of martyrdom.
You speak in absolutes. What makes you so certain that you alone know the true way of things? Is it because you had your opinion confirmed by the actions of the others who chose to leave early as you did? Many, many more stayed for the entire show. You were a paying customer, yes, but you you were one among hundreds or thousands, depending upon the show. This Saturday I will be one among many thousands attending World Class Finals. I've only seen a handful of shows, most will be new to me, but I already believe this is a much finer season than even 2009. My favorite shows are from the past 15 years, and I fully expect this year to continue the trend. I like what takes place on the field today - and if you want me to respect your opinion, you can start by respecting mine, and acknowledging that some customers find today's shows to be very entertaining indeed.
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It's going to be interesting to watch this play out. I refuse to pass judgment until I see how this plan works out in practice, but certainly it's about what I expected to come from the original G7 plan. First, all you who said that the G7 could do whatever they wanted on their own, so long as they left to let DCI keep on keepin' on, well now you've got your wish. My second thought is that this matches with the only parts of the G7 that made sense and seemed to have a consensus. Almost all of the debate on DCP has focused on Hopkins' proposal, as though it were a final draft and the G7 were prepared to follow it to the letter. It seems more likely to me that the leaked PowerPoint was just one step in the negotiation process, and one that was never meant to be public. Keep in mind that the only public announcement from the G7 was Fiedler's press release, posted simultaneously to the corps' web pages. This plan seems more in line with that release, and I have to say I'm curious to see how it all shakes out
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They remind me more and more of teh Blue Devils every time I see them, but more than that, they are creating their own identity and bcemiong known for things that they themselves create and present.
I think that's what I love most about the Bluecoats this season. The show is so very... them. I love that the corps has been so successful and performed so well, and done so on their terms. They haven't had to borrow from anyone else; they've crafted a show that fits the style they've been working with since at least 2002. There is little doubt that this is a corps who knows exactly who they are, now and into the future, and that confidence is paying off for them.
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The real thing that I get out of posts like the OP's is this:
People in the stands generally want to connect in a visceral way to a corps' performance. We all know that tastes vary, and I think it behooves us to encourage more diversity in style and approach in this medium so more tastes can be met. This is not the first time a "legacy fan" has asserted that too many corps seem to be following a similar formula to their programming. That observation is not limited to legacy fans, either.
In my experience, diversity is the last thing a "legacy fan" wants. Most often when I read a post like the original one in this thread, the author has a specific show or style of show that he would like to see again. It is when something new is attempted that a corps gets blasted for being non-traditional. I think there is plenty of diversity in today's show, but if you close off your mind when listening then of course it's going to sound the same. Speaking for myself, I have a hard time believing that Phantom Regiment sounds anything like the Bluecoats, to pick just two corps.
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I've mapped out each corps' location using Google. Someone let me know if the following link works as intended:
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My first Finals was just two years ago, in 2008. I'd been to plenty of regionals, but never to DCI's ultimate event. The difference is palpable; you can feel it in the air. The kids on the field are giving the crowd their show for one last time, and you can tell by the energy they bring to the performance. I can't wait to feel that same electricity, beginning from the very moment when I step into the building on Saturday night.
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BTW, I just had to go look at your profile and what it tells me is, you never really marched with anyone, right? And you are too young to remember the 70's, 80's or really the 90's. So you really don't have a reference point, but more importantly, you don't know what WE are talking about.
And your experience in the 60's and 70's is relevant... how, exactly? You realize that the people you marched with now have grandkids who have aged out of the junior activity, right? Please tell me just how many forms of musical entertainment out there you think connect equally well across generations. My grandma thinks Sousa marches are the height of entertainment. I don't.
You don't have to read my profile; I'll tell you. I never marched in a drum corps either. I marched four years in a top BOA band. But I have no doubt that the activity I marched in is far more relevant to today's drum corps than any activity you marched in during the 60's. Maybe you think that's a bad thing, that drum corps and band are so similar, but frankly your opinion is irrelevant to me. I like what drum corps has become. In fact, if it had stayed what it was when you marched then I wouldn't be a fan; the drum corps that existed before I was born bores me to death. If that' what you prefer, then good for you. But you've had your decades to enjoy that style without me around, telling you how worthless it is. I think it's time for you to get out of the way; it's time to allow me and those like me to enjoy drum corps today, without you and those like you trying to tell me how worthless today's shows are.
I promise, those thrills that you got from drum corps in your time, I get exactly the same thrills from drum corps today. Nothing less. You can still get them too, if you simply open yourself to the possibility instead of closing yourself off to anything different.
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Bumping this, just in time for Championships week. I've been listening to the Atlanta APD, and it's incredible how much the corps improved since the Houston APD. I've been banging away on my desk while I listen here at work. If you don't want to jump and scream for the way the corps brings it home at the end of their opener and closer, then you my friend simply don't like drum corps.
I'm geeked to see the show again this weekend! And I'm betting the corps will climb higher than their 8th-seed by the time the weekend is through.
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while I dont agree with everything he is saying, remember the old adage " the customer is always right".
I'm not saying we return to 1975 programming, but more and more people DO seem to be turned off by what they see and hear on the field.
I listened to the 1998 Championships just the other day. Go listen to the Madison Scouts again. You won't have to wait long before you hear someone yell out "real drum corps!", ostensibly implying that some or all of the other shows that year were 'not' real drum corps. This was 1998, before electronic instruments, before amplification, before any-key brass. It was before the era you yourself professed to be the way drum corps should be: 1999-2003. It's something I think about every time someone tries to act like 'fan' disgruntlement is a new or growing phenomenon.
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He's looking for a "junior" drum and bugle corps contest.
Anybody know where to find one???
Joe
There's a pretty good one taking place in Indianapolis this weekend. If you've got the chance to go, take it.
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Civil? For the last 2 months yall have come and pile on any time any criticism at all is directed your corps show, no matter how well-thought out\reasoned it is.
The criticism of BD on here has seldom been "well-thought out/reasoned", and has often been less than civil. With that said, this thread has certainly run its course, and serves no further purpose.
Where are you staying in Indy?
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
I'd agree with that; Shula's in particular is excellent. I'd also recommend Ruth's Chris or Sullivan's, though neither is exclusive to Indy.