BariBrian
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Posts posted by BariBrian
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CHRISP-
I read comments from Jeff Keviet's website, and he did not go into great detail, that there was confusion on the reporting time for the Muchachos for prelims. The corps thought they were on time, DCI said they were late and they were penalized. They came in 7th in prelims with a 83.050 and 4th in finals with a 86.950. The Muchachos 1974 finals recording was on fire and the fans went wild. The championships were at Cornell University in Ithaca NY in 1974 and were in Philadelphia PA in 1975 & 1976.
It should be noted that in 1974 the Muchachos were the East. The only other eastern corps to make finals were the Purple Lancers who I believe came in 7th. 1974 was an off year for 27th, Garfield and the Bridgemen.
Actually, the Purple Lancers came in 10th that year.
The times that day were all screwed up. The Corp that I marched with (The Emerald Knights from Saratoga NY) were scheduled first that Morning. When we arrived, we found out that they had moved our step off time up by 15 minutes. Three of our members that arrived by car and were tied up in the heavy traffic that the show caused, watched us step off without them.
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Individualism is missing in my opinion. Once again, I mean no offense to the corps of today, in fact, I find you all very talented. More then we were back in the day. Its just that back then, most corps had their own VERY distinctive style. You didn't even have to see the corp back then. You knew who they were, even if they were warming up around the corner. I suppose if I had any complaint about the corps of today (aside from the electronics) Its that few corps have an identity. Now, I know I'll hear that there are pleanty of corps that do, and I'm sure that you have a great point. Before you do though, let me just say the following; 27th, SCV, Hawthorne, Kilts, Blue Devils, the Troopers (Jim Jones), Phantom Regiment, Anaheim Kingsmen and yes the Garfield Cadets. These are just a few great corps that worked hard to keep their Individualism, and a couple of cases are still doing it. The corps today are superior in talent and resources , but many fall into the "Cookie Cut"idea of an excellent corp, and they are excellent, but, no personality that endears them to the fans. Fans still talk about Hawthorne and the Bridgemen, because they stood out. I've been following drum corps for close to 45 years now, and the corps have steadily advanced in music and talent and design. They just (IMHO) lack identity. Find a style, Preform it well, don't be afraid to play it loudly when its time and don't forget the past, meaning that just because you're moving forward, it won't hurt to look back and learn.
Its a great discusion. It says you never stop looking for ways to be excellent. Its says that you don't want to be stagnant
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What?
Am I the only one who noticed BD sitting in chairs last year? That's not pushing creative boundries? Ditto for Cavies making machines, Bluecoats catching criminals and Crown's horses. Programs such as those weren't contemplated in the 90s and not because of Bb, amps or anything other than imagination and evolution.
BD's dance derby surely was a different conception whatever you thought about yowza. Cadets in the narration years set out to push the boundary on articulation. You can't dismiss the push just because it involved amps. It was a push.
I don't get it. I don't get where anyone can claim this activity hasn't changed much lately. Next thing you know we'll be complaining that drum corps today is too old-fashioned.
HH
Most of those things at one time or another were done by the Bridgemen in the 70's & early 80's (except for the artificial sound equipment) Get your hands on some of their DVD's and see what inovation really was. No Offence meant
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Okay so no one can guess.....it was Emerald Knights.
Which Emerald Knights Keith?
My Emerald Knights from Saratoga were sponsered by the Bethesda Church, for a short time
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Was an "exception" made here, and the letter of the rule was not enforced? Yep.....however, I think
most would agree that a horrible injustice would have been done to the corps if the circumstances were not
considered, and was certainly different then any other overage case in drum corps history.
GB
I must RESPECTFULLY disagree with you on this point.,,,,I agree that they (SCV) should not have been disqualified. JUST as I believe that the three eastern corps. should NOT have been. The KIDS in those corps had no control over choices that were made, JUST as the SCV KIDS had no idea, and even if they had known, how do they over ride an administrative decision?
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It was their sweat and dedication all year that was ruined. Corps are not just some icon or name. They are made up of kids that work hard, sometimes go on tour with not enough money to even eat properly. I had to stand on corners during coin drops and car washes and whatever, to raise money to do something I loved more then Breathing, as MOST of us did. NO ONE who had to do that, deserved to be disqualified. Anyone that says different, is NOT thinking of the individuals that make up the organizations
Saying that the WHOLE corps. should be punished for an individuals decision, is kinda like finding one bad apple in the bag, and then throwing the whole bag away
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I know this topic pops up often in DCP. So I feel compelled to give you all my 2 cents, since I have heard over $20 worth from everyone else over the years.
I'm from NJ and remember seeing the Muchachos numerous times since 1973. I saw them at least 4-5 times in 1975 and they were an amazing drum corps. I was stunned when I got to Franklin Field for prelims and found out they were disqualified. I was hoping they had a shot at the title, being a eastern fan (but with great respect for our midwestern and western corps), and because of their CYO score and placement.
- Did they have overage members? Someone I know and respect, who had ties to them, confirmed they did. Shame on their management and staff.
- Where they the only corps in prelims who had overage members? Knowing the time, and drum corps, no, I don't believe they were.
- Where they singled out because they were a top 5 corps or because they were out of favor with DCI? I believe that is possible, but have no proof.
What I do believe is their punishment was too severe and eventually destroyed a great corps. In my opinion they should have allowed their score to be announced and then give them a penalty (.5 or 1 pt for each overage member caught). If they still qualified for finals after all of the penalty points, then allow them to perform without those members. If they choose not to perform, then push up the number 13 corps. So, if they came in 3rd, but after penalty points came in 9th, that would send the proper message to everyone.
By not announcing their prelim score we are where we are today as we were in August 1975. This just keeps growing and growing. Lost in the pro and con of the debate are the legitimate members of the Muchachos who saw their season lost. I cannot imagine how they felt.
Muchacho administration and staff, who knew of overage members, should have been discliplined by DCI. By the way DCI handled it, especially after the 1974 prelim reporting time incident, left much to be desired. What possible good could the idea of destroying scores do in the long run but create speculation as we still have today?
BRAVO!!!!!!! This is excellent! Disqualifing a whole corps full of innocent kids, because of a rule infraction was completely out of line. Penelties should have been made, for certain.
I can not speak for every corps from 75, but I KNOW there were MANY more marching over age. What a shame, and such terrible long term effects for that FINE , FINE drum corp.
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Speaking of great hornlines in a local corps:
I know I've mentioned them before in other threads, but I will again...
The Southern Tier Grenadiers from NY state....early-to-mid-1970s..... had a terrific hornline. They were usually relatively small in numbers, but player-for-player, they had one of the best drum corps brass sections I've ever heard.
They played some pretty high-rent stuff, too...... "Capriccio Espagnol"..... Mouret's "Rondeau" (known as the theme from Masterpiece Theatre)....tunes from the Broadway musical "1776".... among other things. Definitely a notch or two (or three!!) above the standard fare for a local-circuit corps back in the day.
Fran
I totally agree. Their Hornline was among the finest I have ever heard. I always loved to compete against them, because I got to hear them. For what its worth, they were a fine corps as well and very much under valued in NY.
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1978 was my 2nd year of DCI fandom, and my MOST vivid memory of those early years was at a small field in Greeley, CO, at a small show preliminary to nats in Denver, having my mind completely and unretrievably blown away by the sheer beauty and power of Jim Ott's horn book for Spirit. And to this day, I have NEVER had a show have an emotional impact on me like that one did. The words soulful, uplifting, and emotionally nourishing come to mind, but words truly fail. It was like taking drugs! I made a cassette tape at that show and I listened to it at least 300-400 times and it never got old. I was ALMOST in need of an intervention for rehab! The opening fanfare, the joyful and ebullient Walk Him Up, the soulfully bluesy and (at the up-tempo shift) even more joyful Higher and Higher, then Let It Be Me. Wow! Everyone talks about 1980, but for me 1978 was Jim Ott's greatest masterpiece. I sadly (tragically??) lost my cassette tape and the audio quality on the APD is terrible. Doesn't do the music justice at all. But I still have the memory. And WHAT a memory! Thank you, Mr. Ott. And Mr. Float.
Thoughts?
I marched in that show, and in fact The Avant Garde Toured pretty much the same tour as Spirit so we got to see them perform alot that year and let me say that I totally agree with you. They were Massive, they were new and exciting and they were Freakin LOUD!!!!!!!! Not as polished perhaps as 79 & 80, but 100% MORE EXCITING. My ears were almost bleeding after seeing them for the first time in Virginia that year. WOW
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Yeah They were great. Always entertaining and always different. One of the very best in the early 70's in my opinion
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Found this also on the Blue Rock website
1974 DCI East
Cawley Stadium - Lowell, Ma.
1. Hawthorne Muchachos 83.65
2. Garfield Cadets 77.60
3. Purple Lancers 76.85
4. Cardinals 76.10
5. 27th Lancers 74.35
6. Blue Rock 73.35
7. Pembroke Imperials 69.95
8. Bridgemen 68.00
74 was not too bad of a year for them and many others. Sadly we lost them after this in Jr. Competition
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Keith it seems to me that you are corect about 73 as well, but I couldn't find a score for them
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SEARCH Year (YYYY) Corps Name Show Name City of Show Show Date FOR
Friday August 16, 1974
Ithaca NY DCI World Championships - Prelims STADIUM: Schoellkopf Field DCI
Position Corps Score
1 Madison Scouts 87.750
2 Kingsmen 86.850
3 Santa Clara Vanguard 86.600
4 Kilties 84.450
5 Troopers 84.400
6 DeLaSalle Oaklands 84.000
7 Muchachos 83.050
8 Phantom Regiment 81.800
9 Cavaliers 81.650
10 Purple Lancers 81.600
11 Blue Devils 80.550
12 Blue Stars 79.400
13 Polish Falcon Cadets 76.950
14 Commodores 76.700
15 Black Knights 76.450
16 Blue Rock 75.900
17 Regiment Militaire 75.750
17 Royal Crusaders 75.750
19 Garfield Cadets 75.150
20 27th Lancers 73.500
21 Percussion-naut Patriots 72.050
22 Pioneer 71.100
23 Beverly Cardinals 70.450
24 Squires 70.150
25 Precisionnaires 70.100
26 Bridgemen 69.400
27 Valley Grenadiers 69.250
28 St. Francis Xavier Sancians 68.800
29 Americanos 68.050
30 Pembroke Imperials 67.450
31 Marion Cadets 67.100
32 Surfers 66.150
33 Argonne Rebels 65.300
34 Toronto Optimists 64.600
35 Audubon Bon Bons 64.350
36 Charioteers 63.750
37 Boston Crusaders 62.600
38 Grenadiers (NY) 62.500
39 Guardsmen 61.000
40 Belvederes 60.750
41 General Butler Vagabonds 60.250
42 CMCC Warriors 59.650
42 Gauchos 59.650
44 Emerald Knights (NY) 56.600
45 Iron Brigade 55.200
46 Northern Aurora 54.600
47 Sir Thomas More Cadets 51.750
48 St. John's 51.450
49 Silhouettes 50.150
50 Floridians 49.950
51 Mello-Dears 49.650
52 Defenders 44.900
53 Appleknockers 40.550
54 Legion Vanguard 40.200
55 Les Chatelaines 39.950
56 84th Bucktail Regiment 27.000
57 Kinsmen 22.800
Show results for this contest with repertoire information.
Click on the corps name to display detailed repertoire information for 1974 and the scores for all contests for that corps.
Related Shows:
DCI World Championships August 17, 1974
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My Avant Garde friends will hate me for this but I really liked the Watkins Glen Squires in 76. Superb show and well done
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Actually, it was 1974 and they came in 16th in the prelims at Ithaca according to CorpRep
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I mis understood. Sorry,,I thought you were talking in any given year, What year were they top twelve? 73?
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I might be wrong, the old memory ain't what it use to be, but I believe they marched in the 72 DCI's although I'm not sure of their placement. Thats somthing you'd find on Corprep
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Oh Man,, I'll never forget the Bellville Black Knights and how impressive they were. I was also very impressed with the Precisonaires that same year
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Love you Brian !!!!
Thanks Donel, but be careful. Don't wanna make your Hubby Jealous =)
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I like your three "m" example. Regarding the "m" for members, when I think about some of the kids I marched with ('60's-'70s) most didn't have a music background like today's kids. They were just kids who looked at drum corps as a release. The only reason I got into drum corps was because Gail Royer caught me cutting school and made me show up at a practice (I was hooked!), we had a lead sop who was living out of his car and played with us till he aged out, another kid was in a motorcycle gang and ended up playing cymbals and later bass drum for us (grease stained jeans, chains and all). The kids of that era were more "blue collar" than today's music majors. And your right, we all fell into drum corps as our release activity but could easily been into destructive areas. The fact that the kids of that era had more drum corps to choose from cut back on the competitiveness of marching in any corps - unlike today's kids. If you had a warm body you could march and the corps taught you how to play a bugle, drum or spin a flag which wasn't an issue. With fewer drum corps to march in, compounded with the high cost for the kids to march today has moved more kids into other areas which is unfortunately for drum corps and only allowing the very best (the elite) to participate in drum corps.
This is another great point. We had so many choices back then. Even the choice of Good person / Bad Person. I was brought in a town that was very tough and economicaly depressed even back then. However, it was also a town that supported (This is no lie) Seven (yes 7) drum and bugle corps all at the same time. Many of thos corps were responsible for making great kids out of kids that could have gone either way. As they disapeared (the corps) the kids started making other choices, some good, but most not so good. Hopefully someone at DCI with VISION beyond its members finds a way to develop new corps, or else even the Elite corps will someday sucumb from lack of membership with no places to draw from
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Yes Brian, When AG first came about - it was Speig's ad Emerald k. But In the 80's The DCI Corps The Volunteers - Who I marched with under the direction of John Rustin ~ and were the feeder unit to the Spiegelaires ....
also falling under the same issues that AG did - merged into or rather came to Garde in order to make a larger DCI Corps for the area. We placed 16th - The CORE members of The Vols. and the remaining CORE members of AG were all the most dedicated, talented and still under age in the area. It was a phenomenal time in both corps histories... Anyway I am glad to have seen 2 great directors work out a successful plan to keep drum corps going in this region.
Thank you for the great words of support Brian ! Have a happy New Year
Donel
Donel I wish you and Greg the very best with the New Year and the Excelsior. I wish that I were in the position to march, but thats a long story. However, if there are ANY Avant Garde members out there reading this and are local. I certainly hope that they embrace another oppurtunity to capture that feeling that we all had together once again. It was a feeling that I've never experienced since. All you AG members out there in the Capital Dist area MARCH LOCAL!!!!
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BRAVO my friends. VERY well said
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What has it been almost 25 years? At least 25 years since Avant Garde folded, 27 if you are a Volunteer. When the Vols & AG merged back then, it was for the preservation of a Junior Drum Corps.
Two groups coming together because drum corps as WE knew it was everything to us. For some it was our lives, where we played, sweat, learned, fought, grew… loved. Some of the best years of our lives were dedicated and committed to each other, to the CORE making it better each year becoming more and more competitive we grew older, and as we matured, so did the corps. Never really realizing that, that which we worked so hard to save was not being carefully preserved…
Preserved through our own involvement with educating new people who would go on to enable the corps to survive… And so… it did not and In 1986, the last Drum & Bugle Corps in the Capital District closed its doors on an era that would end its future here. Sure some folks of course, attempted to bring it back not a junior corps this time but rather an all age corps. Why ?
Because, those who loved and knew drum corps were older now but alas it never really hung on, corps' died out almost as fast as they came up. In 2004 a group of folks decided to give it yet another try A mix of personalities both young and old, some with DCI experience, some Alumni and DCA experience, hoping to some how join their bond into yet another all aged drum corps.
This time setting their sights on only parades, exhibitions and an easy schedule. This turned out, 36 horns several drummers, Honor and Color Guards. The Problem ? The Corps and its staff were on different pages. Some thought compete while other well… just wanted to have a good time and that was o.k., but again not on the same page. Those who wanted to compete left.
It was time for direction and well, not everyone can be a Jeff Perkins or John Rustin, If you get my point.
They say,” Leaders are not born, they are put there by those who would be lead by them” and in June of 2007 Excelsior changed hands. Now under new management (AG style)
the goals changed and it was time to compete… to once again bring competitive drum corps back to the Capital Region.
An opportunity to not only give the mature a chance to do what they loved but, to give youth an opportunity to perform, have 20-40 hours/month of music education, build character, leadership skills, discipline and confidence. I know I don’t have to tell YOU what drum corps is. The problem is… that in our day we did not have to contend with the internet, XBOX, heavy sports schedules, WGI etc. etc. The worse part is...
in today’s society to obtain a music scholarship would be far more easy to accomplish then a sport scholarship, so what are they thinking???
Why is drum corps so dehydrated in the Capital with all the talent in this area ?
Why is it that a kid will do 4-5 hours of football, but cant last 5 hours in a drum corps rehearsal. Is what we do that much more challenging? Have we not taught our kids to have more tenacity then that? Last year a staffer said to me, that it was up to us to make the rehearsal interesting and fun. Exciting enough to want to return. Although an interesting concept, I don’t believe that is the entire problem.
Have you ever noticed when you go into say… a Yankee Candle shop that even though you know what a candle is, how is smells you still need to touch, feel and smell them all AGAIN, How impressive it is, all those candles lined up so neatly...
As I do every year, I attended another drum corps’ rehearsal. I brought my 15 year old son, this time, a soprano in Excelsior’s line. I paid more attention to how much fun and or interaction I had and really there was no real difference between them and us. In fact, my 15 year old said, he thought we were more disciplined and that is saying a lot. However, HOWEVER… he was jumping up and down excited and ill tell you why.
“IT IS ALL ABOUT SIZE”
This line had 65 + horns and let me tell you … it looked good, felt good and smelled good.
So there you have it.
The real answer to the lack of success in this area, not enough folks dedicating their time to their own back yard.
They travel 3-4 plus hours to make some other city some other state more prosperous in drum corps. Bringing their “brick” if you will to someone else’s wall. Never willing to build the foundation of drum corps here, right next to all the people they have marched in drum corps with before.
Drum Corps in the Capital, needs your HELP.
YOU… those of you who are still here, still here, not doing drum corps at all for that matter. I know, too busy, kids, work, wives, husbands etc. I know I’ve been there too,
In my mind. Who knew that “all age drum corps” would be easier to do then that which I remembered. Who knew that now I could include my loved ones and that as a family... we could all do this thing that I loved and was so a part of me. Happily my family was more interested in getting to know a part of me they did not know about before.
They supported me and helped. We have great family outings now, which we did not always have before because, we would choose to work on the house or they would go hang with their friends play XBOX internet whatever…
Now we ....together, grow confidence, spend time together and yet have time apart making new friends while still building a common goal.
I am 43 now.
Through drum corps and because of drum corps I have become a strong and independent person. Continuing to learn skills , growing my family as well as other’s and in all that, drum corps has brought back to me the other love of my life Greg Mataruga ...WHO WAS AVANT GARDE
As most of you know he was one of the soloists for Avant Garde and when the Vols & AG merged we met.
Today, 25 years later, we are together again and we are now married.
Now together we embark on this adventure called Drum Corps . In 2009 Excelsior stepped foot on the competing field – an historic event for the Capital Region. Armed with Avant Garde in our blood a much bigger staff for the 2010 season, Excelsior’s goal is to become more competitive so that we too will look good, feel good and smell good to new on lookers in order to preserve this thing that gave us a start to most of our lives.
Help us to really jump start this, what ever that means for you. Marching, helping, supporting, teaching, recruiting – what ever you are capable of.
Greg and I ask you to help us out in 2010, To not only compete, but to become competitive and pass on the legacy that WE were all apart of creating ….
DRUM CORPS
Mrs. Greg Mataruga
Director - EXCELSIOR Drum & Bugle Corps
Avant Garde
Volunteers Drum & Bugle Corps
excelsiordrumajor@gmail.com
I would just make one correction here if I may. The Volunteers were not part of that original Merger. It was between the Spieglaires and the Emerald Knights.
I salute you for what you are doing with Excelsior and wish you the very best. I will also say that if ANY of my old friends are out there and considering marching again to please march with our LOCAL friends in Excelsior.
Best wishes Mrs. Mataruga
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"I also want to let folks know that Jeff Perkins not only gave his heart and soul to the corps but back in the day but was also one of the most well respected Directors in all of Drum Corps.Jeff's dedication and skill not only kept the Avant Garde in business despite the tough times all corps faced,he was also sought out by many other corps, some of them "finalist" corps, for advise and direction. He did so much with so little."
and FYI Jerry Kasier was just as respected and saught after by many corps in that same time period. He was an excellent Drum Major,,one of the very best I have ever witnessed and was highly respected by many of his peers and DCI elite. More over Jerry was a natural leader with the ability to handle tough situations in a very approachable manor. Many a show I knew that our performance was inspired by the guy on the podeum giving 120% of himself before, during, and after the show itself.
Thanks Jer, for all of that and so much more
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Drum corps was sponsored in large part by veteran groups, the VFW and AL, the CYO and some PAL organizations through the 60's. In the case of the VFW and AL, a lot of the members from WWII and Korea had corps-aged kids in the 50's and 60's. As the post members aged through the 70's...and their kids aged out, there was less interest at the posts in continuing an ever-more-expensive activity like drum corps. Viet Nam vets were not joining the VFW/AL in large numbers, so that source of future parents was not there.
For the CYO and PAL, esp in urban areas, by the 70's those groups were no longer viewed the same as they had been through the 60's by the general population, resulting in fewer and fewer kids wanting to participate. The churches and police were no longer viewed as positive influences by residents. The increased costs made corps a less desirable activity to the CYO and PAL, as it had in the VFW/AL.
Corps were set adrift and forced to survive on their own...many were unable to. Some resorted to mergers, which staved off extinction for some period of time...sometimes only a year or two.
I certainly agree with most of this. However those letters, "DCI" still pop up here too. It was DCI's restriction of the member corps of where they could perform who they could be recorded by. Who could photograph them. Granted DCI had no malice in their decisions, they truely were doing these things to improve the welfare of drum corps, but these regulation had long reaching effects, that many show sponsers & corps. could not recover from. Suddenly instead of having the very elite corps attending their big shows, they had corps of a much lesser crowd draw ability. Eventually many show sponser decided it was no longer worth the effort.
When I was a boy in drum corp. I use to be able to bring my tape recorder to shows and not be hassled. I use to be able to bring my camera and take pictures of my favorite corps because I was a fan, not because I wanted to sell them to others and while I understand DCI's issue with it, I do NOT agree with those policies. Still Its just about Money and unfortunatly thats what motivates these days. Corps were promised better "Pay Days" with this "New Organization" formed by corps that were certainly not getting paid what they surely were worth. But again the rules and regulations that evolved over the next few years hurt sponsers of those big shows and also the lesser "Non-Member" corps. Inorder to keep those big "Pay Days" coming, new forms of revenue had to be found, such as souvineirs, recording, photographs, and other types of merchendise. And the bigger corps found to keep competitive and continue to get those big "Pay Days" they had to start searching for "Ready Made Talent" guess where that came from.
Anyways, whats done is done, and as I said, it was all done for "The Good" of the activity. Natural to want to survive, and thats what they were trying to do, and in so many ways they did that. BUT what a cost
I don't believe any of what has happened was intentional or a conspiracy of any sort. they were just an effects of choices made, thats it.
I do miss the World Open, VFW, America Legion, The Dream and so many more shows that didn't have those three letters "DCI" attached LOL
Muchachos 1975
in Historical Junior Corps Discussions
Posted
Also, there was a major difference between their Prelim Preformane and the finals. They were very good in the prelims, but they were fantastic in the finals. ON FIRE. I thought I was witnessing a major upset in the making. Same in 75