K-90 3V conversion & overhaul

[ContraBuddy]

Hi everyone,

Well, I'm selling my house and moving. I'm also planning on using some of the money to get my K-90 overhauled, replated and converted to a 3V. I'll probably have the job done by Intensive Care Repair up in Ontario, Canada.

But, before I go ahead and do any of this, I'd like to get some input from others.

First, has anyone here gotten repair work done by ICR? If so, how good was the work?

Second, to keep the cost down, ICR would do the 3V conversion using non K-90 parts. They also would not be using the Kanstul conversion kit. What kind of results have people gotten from a K-90 3V conversion that didn't use K-90 parts or a Kanstul kit?

Last, what are the advantages & disadvantages of different kinds of plating? I'm thinking of going with chrome, since my 40+ year old V/R contra still looks really good.

I know that there are some of you who will not like the idea of going 3V on a K-90. But, I prefer playing the low end and our music is written for 3V contras. In a 3V corps, an original K-90 doesn't get any more use than my V/R Olds Ultratone.

Pros or cons, I hope to hear from you.

[G-horns]

No experience in overhauls, etc., but...

Why not use the Kanstul kit? Is it your choice or theirs? And if not Kanstul, what is the source of parts? You certainly don't want a conversion that will be hard to maintain in the future.

Chrome is durable, but only if applied properly. I recall reading that if there isn't a layer of nickel under the chrome, it doesn't bond well to the brass substrate.

I'm sure you already know this, but there is definitely a difference in sound between chrome plate and silver plate. Either way, the cost is going to be high.

Is it worth all the money on a K-90? I know the horn is a keeper in the original form, but sinking a bunch of dough into it might be more expensive than a used Kanstul Grande.

[ContraBuddy]

No experience in overhauls, etc., but...

Why not use the Kanstul kit? Is it your choice or theirs? And if not Kanstul, what is the source of parts? You certainly don't want a conversion that will be hard to maintain in the future.

Chrome is durable, but only if applied properly. I recall reading that if there isn't a layer of nickel under the chrome, it doesn't bond well to the brass substrate.

I'm sure you already know this, but there is definitely a difference in sound between chrome plate and silver plate. Either way, the cost is going to be high.

Is it worth all the money on a K-90? I know the horn is a keeper in the original form, but sinking a bunch of dough into it might be more expensive than a used Kanstul Grande.

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

You do have a really good point there, which I really hadn't even concidered. So, I just posted a message over in the marketplace looking into buying a 3V contra.

As for the possible conversion of my K-90, the main reason not to go with the Kanstul conversion kit was price. I think the kit goes for around $800- by itself. Whereas adding a 3rd valve that was 'compatable' but not an actual K-90 valve along with the full overhaul, would only cost me a grand.

As for the plating, sure, the plating will have an effect on the sound, and the K-90 never did come chrome plated. I also know that it woild be considered almost sacreligious to chrome a K-90. But, cleaning & polishing a contra to 'Show Readiness' is a real *itch, and I'll freely admit that I'm getting a bit lazy in my old age. The K-90 that I have is in really good shape, but it takes about 3 hours to really clean her up. Then, within 2 to 3 weeks, she's tarnished almost black again. I've also got several old bugles, including a 50 year old single piston bari with chrome plating. That old bari has a better finish than the 26 year old K-90. It's also really nice to be able to clean the horn using only Windex and a towel.

So, I'll put working on the K-90 on hold, and see what comes from my post looking to buy another contra.

Take care.

Bill

[nukeme70]

Second, to keep the cost down, ICR would do the 3V conversion using non K-90 parts. They also would not be using the Kanstul conversion kit. What kind of results have people gotten from a K-90 3V conversion that didn't use K-90 parts or a Kanstul kit?

Last, what are the advantages & disadvantages of different kinds of plating? I'm thinking of going with chrome, since my 40+ year old V/R contra still looks really good.

Pros or cons, I hope to hear from you.

One of the guys down here that plays in the Shrine corps converted his K-90 to a 3 banger - he was able to purchase/trade for the left-over valve cluster from when T-birds converted their K-90 to 3 (I think they used the Kanstul kit, not sure, but Jim up there did the work).

One of the local magicians down here used one of those K-90 valves and the tubing and basically turned it into the 3rd valve, without having to rip out all the innards. Literally just added a 3rd valve to the horn, and the parts are 100% K-90.

I'm with you 100% on the chrome plating - I have a DEG Dynasty II contra from the mid 80's that still looks great, even after sitting in the case probably 350 days a year. Compare that to my DEG 5/4 4 valve that I have to constantly clean and chrome wins hands down. I prefer the bright look of the chrome as well. I think one of the reasons that chrome went out of favor is the expense to maintain a chrome shop - there's a lot of toxic chemicals involved in the plating process, and it probably wasn't cost effective for the instrument shops to get licensed when the tougher regulations started kicking in.

I get a sense that the chrome finish is also more durable - the silver plate is softer, and polishing with a less-than-optimal cloth will leave fine scratches behind, where the chrome seems pretty impervious to most cloths out there.

[Periphery]

The Kanstul kit is for the Olds Ultratone, NOT the K-90. It can be made to work, but it requires that a part or two be "created" because the bore of this valve section is smaller than what is on the K-90. Some have reported that these converted horns play VERY sharp when finished. (The conversion kit for the Olds is a .656" bore and the King uses a .687" or .689" set of tubes. This requires that you create a short tube to line up with the body that also flares from .656" to .687" in a slight "S" bend.

The addition of a third valve can be done by a really good tech using a valve section from a gutted King sousaphone. You will probably have to locate your own for the tech to use, so get a gutted "white rat" as they are pretty cheap on eBay. However, if you get the valve section from a fiber sousa it will be brass without silver plate. One of these piston casings can be grafted onto your two piston set in a manner that will fit, allow for a decent slide routing and look decent in the end. The best bet is to use the sousa 1st as your new 1st, having a new first slide built that runs down and back. Since the Ab slip slide will no longer be needed the tech has some freedom in rerouting tubes as he sees fit. Just be CERTAIN that he knows that you need to see through the horn to the left or you don't know what you might get in the end!

In the end, once all work has been completed, a full overhaul with silver plating is what I would do . . . NOT the chrome allow that is used on the older bugles. It is really hard to do properly and will peel off if not done just about perfectly. If it peels it can cut you in some cases. Note that modern instrument silver plating is only about 4 microns in thickness, so you had better specifically request (more expensive) heavy plating or it will just wear through again.

The Kanstuls do not play as near as nicely as the Kings; the tone is not as nice and the projection is not quite as good. Some of the Kanstuls can be pretty stuffy as well. I have played both.

If you have the bucks AND the parts AND the access to a stud repair tech, then you ought to fix up your K-90, as this seems to be what you really want. If any of that is missing then you ought to search for a three-valved Kanstul or the 4 banger GG Willson-made Deg Super Mag because you are talking a lot of money here to do everything the way you want and any of these things missing will make it cost more through additional time for the work to be done.

(Personally, I hate the earlier, three-valved DEG Super Mags and the four-valved Kanstuls. On the DEGs, the routing of the large tubes is different on the older horns and it does not play as well as the later 4 valver, IMHO. And I have tried to play a four-valved Kanstul and it was not too fun . . . VERY stuffy and front heavy.) BTW - Kings frequently have a really flat second line treble clef G (concert D). I do not recall this with the Willson or the Kanstul. So there is one negative for the King, just to be even-handed, here.

:)

I plan of doing a 3rd and 4th valve addition to my King at my shop. When it is done I will send it on to Anderson in St. Louis for plating. It will rock anything out there on the field, guaranteed! I just hope that I can hold the bell up as it is already pretty bell heavy . . .

:)

Edited September 4, 2007 by Periphery

[G_Bass]

I plan of doing a 3rd and 4th valve addition to my King at my shop. When it is done I will send it on to Anderson in St. Louis for plating. It will rock anything out there on the field, guaranteed! I just hope that I can hold the bell up as it is already pretty bell heavy . . .

:)

When this plan is complete, post up some pics. I'd like to see a K-90 with 4 valves. ^0^

[Vanguard Rich]

I get a sense that the chrome finish is also more durable - the silver plate is softer, and polishing with a less-than-optimal cloth will leave fine scratches behind, where the chrome seems pretty impervious to most cloths out there.

I would check into the chrome plating of the horn. I investigated having a horn chrome plated and I was told from the Company that does replating that the chrome replating process will eat the brass metal on the horn, possibly to the point you may have weak spots and maybe even holes in the tubing or bell. So please check this out before you have the work done. Maybe even verify what I have been told about this?? Good luck!! I have an old 2-Valve DEG 5/4 contra that I'm going to have converted down the road to three valves, so I'll be going through all of this as well.