amped pits

[Martybucs]

Well, like many have already stated, the pit must listen back to the corps.

Why must the pit, "listen back" to the corps? Why can't they listen forward to the corps? Seriously, not trying to be disrespectful or humorous.

If you're in the hornline, or drumline and guard, you are spread all over the field, especially way out at the back corners you have to strain to make a connection with what you're hearing to what the drum major is showing. When you're marching at warp speed and swirling around, marching backwards and sideways on the field; one second you have a mellophone in your ear and the next a sop and then a bari all playing different parts. You practice countless hours to keep it all together where ever you are on the field.

I'm asking, the pit can only do this from the front sideline?

Don't get angry or sarcastic anyone. It's an honest question.

Edited February 4, 2007 by Martybucs

[Martybucs]

At that point don't you pretty much HAVE to play a Def Leppard show?

^0^ truly tasteless.

[PR_ducky]

Why must the pit, "listen back" to the corps? Why can't they listen forward to the corps? Seriously, not trying to be disrespectful or humorous.

If you're in the hornline, or drumline and guard, you are spread all over the field, especially way out at the back corners you have to strain to make a connection with what you're hearing to what the drum major is showing. When you're marching at warp speed and swirling around, marching backwards and sideways on the field; one second you have a mellophone in your ear and the next a sop and then a bari all playing different parts. You practice countless hours to keep it all together where ever you are on the field.

I'm asking, the pit can only do this from the front sideline?

Don't get angry or sarcastic anyone. It's an honest question.

Because horns are directional. Listening back you sync with sound moving forward past you. Listening forward you would sound late to those in front of the corps.

[PR_ducky]

As a bari/euph player and visual staff person, why are you commenting on the hassles of the front ensemble. I would GLADLY go through those hassels if DCA would let me. As an arranger it would be worth plenty to me to get the nuances and subtleties to speak through and project to the top of the stadium.

Just my opinion, no need to go ballistic.

I have seen corps without amps, and with amps, and I honestly don't think the amps add enough detail and nuance to make them worth the hassle of toting around and plugging in and balancing and everything else.

Feel free to disagree.

I don't feel like the shows from when I was marching and teaching lost anything by not having amplified pits.

At the same time I don't think the shows I have seen since have gained much by being amped.

Obviously amps are with us for the near future so my opinion, in the end, doesn't really matter.

The gist of my main post was that a corps can be succesful without having to put its pit on the front sideline.

[Martybucs]

Because horns are directional. Listening back you sync with sound moving forward past you. Listening forward you would sound late to those in front of the corps.

This is true, but you can't watch the drum major?

You haven't heard directional phasing until you've been on the outside edges of the field trying to keep it together.

Again, not being snarky here. I realize you have to look at your instruments to play them. I did mention backfield monitors, but I guess that isn't a good idea - I can see the problems with that.

This post was a question I had on my mind and I pretty much get the idea of what people think now.

Never intended a, "Pits! Love them or Hate them" kind of thread.

[PR_ducky]

This is true, but you can't watch the drum major?

You haven't heard directional phasing until you've been on the outside edges of the field trying to keep it together.

Again, not being snarky here. I realize you have to look at your instruments to play them. I did mention backfield monitors, but I guess that isn't a good idea - I can see the problems with that.

This post was a question I had on my mind and I pretty much get the idea of what people think now.

Never intended a, "Pits! Love them or Hate them" kind of thread.

You can watch the drum major, but the reality of corps is horns listen back to battery and pit listens back to horns.

You simply can't watch the DM all the time or you can't march drill.

and just for the record, I love the pit. The pit is an integral part of the music, thank god they don't have to lug tympani around the field anymore.

Just not crazy about amps, thats all.

[SpartacusRocks]

Just my opinion, no need to go ballistic.

I have seen corps without amps, and with amps, and I honestly don't think the amps add enough detail and nuance to make them worth the hassle of toting around and plugging in and balancing and everything else.

Feel free to disagree.

I don't feel like the shows from when I was marching and teaching lost anything by not having amplified pits.

At the same time I don't think the shows I have seen since have gained much by being amped.

Obviously amps are with us for the near future so my opinion, in the end, doesn't really matter.

The gist of my main post was that a corps can be succesful without having to put its pit on the front sideline.

I tend to agree. I love the subtleties of soft music and gentlier instruments, but I have never been convinced that they "fit" in drum corps. The gestures (musical gestures) are lost in an out-of-doors setting (thus the need for amplification). To my way of thinking, amplification just makes drum corps unnecessarily expensive and complicated...making it even less likely that younger "neighborhood" corps can compete successfully. Though I appreciate the attempt to raise "artistic standards", I wonder how successful amplificaiton really is and if its pro's aren't overshadowed by the expense.

Futhermore, from an aesthetic point of view, I always thought the combination of brass and percussion (which sounds organic, natural and "of this earth", to me) are ill-matched with electronic amplification.

Edited February 4, 2007 by SpartacusRocks

[prodigal bari]

MartyBucs...let me try to answer that question :)

If everyone in a spread form watched the DM for tempo the sound would arrive at different times, creating a variety of phasing and tempo tears. (The sound of speed is constant on the field; and since sound travels at roughly 800 feet a second that could create a tear up to 1/4 of a second from back positions to front.

Depending on the formation and the best source to relate tempo to, the corps is instructed to listen to a particular section for tempo. In a balanced formation, for example, backfield percussion would watch the DM while instruments forward would listen to the percussion. (In wide formations it can become complicated; but the skill of the staff in the front box can instruct the various areas what to do...either watch or listen to a section.)

The idea is to get the initiation of the tempo coming from the back and everyone 'anticipating the bus' and jumping on as the pulse catches up to them. You want the sound arriving at the press box at the same EXACT time; if not; then you have tears and muddy ensemble, and in extreme circumstances, a complete collapse of the ensemble. A bad day...) Since the front ensemble is on the front center sideline if they follow the DM they would be considerably ahead of the pulse; therefore not only THEY have to listen for the pulse to reach them, but the amplification source MUST be where they are to avoid destablizing the front ensemble itself (due to the sound delay). IF you put ampflication in the back but the ensemble up front you can only imagine the impossibility of having a cohesive ensemble pulse; and the same if you swap positions of amps and ensemble. (Just like if the DM starts listening and following the ensemble you will have tempo instability...)

I hope this helps!!

ps...I actually will like amplification IF it is used to allow better performance of the front ensemble (and the equipment becomes less cumbersome), not to add an instrument group to the DC idiom.

Edited February 4, 2007 by prodigal bari

[Divalish16]

You can watch the drum major, but the reality of corps is horns listen back to battery and pit listens back to horns.

Technically, the pit listens back to the battery too.

Anywho, back to the original topic. It's not completely crazy to put the pit on the back sideline. I know it's not the same, but people do it in indoor all the time with amps. We had it set up with monitors for us with the speakers and subs in the front. For time, the pit played to the battery's feet. It worked out okay. I don't know if you could apply the same thing to outdoor, but it might be more trouble than it's worth trying to get everything lined up.

[prodigal bari]

Technically, the pit listens back to the battery too.

Anywho, back to the original topic. It's not completely crazy to put the pit on the back sideline. I know it's not the same, but people do it in indoor all the time with amps. We had it set up with monitors for us with the speakers and subs in the front. For time, the pit played to the battery's feet. It worked out okay. I don't know if you could apply the same thing to outdoor, but it might be more trouble than it's worth trying to get everything lined up.

It works well inside due to the small distances (40 feet maximum; where the delay is almost imperceptible and the area is stage-like) vs. 160-300 feet on the field. Not only would it take a wireless system (can you imagine someone wrecking havoc on someone's show by singing drinking songs on a transmitter? :sshh: ); but the sound up front would be ahead of the acoustic ensemble; and it would be impossible to balance properly (backfield battery cannot hear at all for balance).

If you reversed the setup (pit in front; speakers in back and monitors in front) you would have a nightmarish time getting the pit to even hear the monitors over the hornline/battery (which would be up to 1/4 second behind the front monitors and the physical performance). The distance would kill you.