Richard

Not to speak for Bob, but potshots at the fan base? BRASSO is one of the loudest and most irrational critics of DCI on these boards and has repeatedly spoken out against any change in drum corps. There's nothing offensive about what Bob said. And you also speak as if this "fan base" doesn't repeatedly take shots at DCI, when a good third of the posts in any thread related to a decision made by DCI claim that it was a bad and stupid one. Overreact much? EDIT: Bob beat me to the punch

I understand the heat affects the tuning considerably, I've been there too. Warming up in the shade (if possible) would go a long way to keeping the temperature of the horns relatively steady. Adjusting to intonation is a concern, but even as a brass performer I'd take it over the heat. I've gone from tuning in the parking lot to performing on the turf which was at least 10 to 15 degrees hotter and it destroyed our intonation just the same (of course this was on G bugles which are notoriously more difficult to keep in tune than the Bbs that lines are currently using, so that was also a factor). This, plus the exhaustion, plus in some cases second-degree burns on the guard’s feet, is reason enough for me to not want to perform in that type of environment ever again. My performance always went way up in more comfortable environments, and if I’m going to have to use my ears to play in tune either way, I’m going to have a considerably easier time committing my mental energy to doing that rather than say, not passing out in the heat. Additionally, if the roof is open during the day, that turf is going to retain that heat well into the evening, so the intonation concerns will continue to exist. Combined with the lack of airflow and considerable cooling time of the stadium cited by others, the later-performing groups would be faced with the same challenges.

Do you really expect the employees of an organization to speak out against it publicly? To make the frequently awful and always dreaded sports analogy: how many NFL refs, MLB umpires or NBA officials do you see speaking out against their leagues? I'm not sure why you would expect anything different from DCI.

Uh, they're not. They've already been told this by scoring the way they have all season and being put in that performance order. And take it from someone who has performed on turf during the hottest part of the day: those are not conditions in which anyone wants to be performing. I'd wager the performers of those groups would rather have a climate controlled environment with the roof closed than be subjected to the triple digit heat coming off the turf.

fromthepressbox See the bottom left: World Class Recap Winners. That will at least tell you who scored the highest at which shows in which captions during finals week. I don't know how the awards are calculated for each trophy though.

But this year it has 3 (presumably 4 with Spartans). Cap Reg and Citations are inactive. And with Raiders not coming up from NJ and Dutch Boy not coming down from Canada, you're left with a pretty thin lineup. In MLB, the major league teams don't depend on the minor league teams to add to their ranks (organizationally speaking, obviously for players they do). The well-being of Open Class is absolutely critical to the continued health of World Class. Which is why when we're talking about the long-term viability of DCI, Open Class is more than appropriate subject matter, regardless of forum. Not to mention that there is no designated forum for DCI discussion related to both classes and having concurrent discussions seems counter-productive.

So, what I'm gathering from recent posts, is that the biggest factor behind fans leaving the activity is show design and how it's changed over the years. But it's hard to cast such a wide net over "DCI" because of the creative direction in which individual directors and design teams have taken their corps. A fair case can be made that the judging system drives a large component of show design, but again, those rules are voted upon by individual corps directors. Yes, those directors in many ways make up DCI, but even so, I would encourage those who are dissatisfied with many modern drum corps to refocus their criticism. Instead of proclaiming that the activity is changing for the worse, find a corps (or 2 or 5) whose shows you enjoy and support them. If you truly care about the activity, you'll find ways to support it even though you don't enjoy some of the top scoring groups. MikeD make an excellent point: is it really hard to find even 2 or 3 shows that you enjoy out of the entire field of 45+ corps? If you can find no entertainment in any of the modern drum corps shows, then that is unfortunate. But even if you only liked Troopers or Pacific Crest or Cavaliers or Teal Sound or Music City last year, please support that group! Tell that group "I really enjoyed your show, please continue to make more like it!". That is far better than to just give up on the activity. And if enough fans focus on supporting the groups they like rather than complaining against the groups they don't like, well it's probable you'll see more likeable shows on the field. If Music City pulls in a few grand in donations from people saying "we like your old school show design" they will certainly be encouraged to continue in that direction! If other groups hear about the support Music City is getting due to their show design, it's probable that some of those other groups will move in that same direction. If the dissastified fan base is as large as some claim it to be, then a real impact could be made here. Imagine if everyone who signed the petition against amps donated money to a corps who DOESN'T use amps saying "we appreciate your acoustic sound, keep it up and we'll continue to support you". I'd say support is a better alternative to complaining, especially if the well-being of the activity is what you really care about. Also, if attendance loss really started in the 70s and 80s, then hasn't drum corps been losing fans since it's inception? If I'm going to believe this, then I feel even better about the direction the activity has been going in during the past decade.

This type of segregationist attitude is one of the biggest problems plaguing the activity today. Open Class needs support from ALL drum corps fans to ensure the activity's long term survival. OC groups in general face more financial difficulties than World Class groups, and the tendency for many fans to focus on World Class only is harmful to the activity. This applies to both fans of modern drum corps who attend primarily World Class shows and donate time and money to World Class groups while largely ignoring the Open Class division, and the legacy fans who have found that modern World Class drum corps does not suit their tastes so they dismiss Open Class as well. In my opinion, this mindset has potential to be far more harmful to the activity than recent rule changes.

How many Open Class shows have you seen recently? Many who find world class shows to be not fan-friendly find Open Class to be a breath of fresh air.

But why does attendance matter if not for the revenue those shows produce that allow for the continued proliferation of drum corps? And if their increased revenue during that time period was NOT due to attendance, then please tell me what caused it because I can't figure out a logical explanation. These revenues do not include audio/video sales, so you're saying that (non-audio/video) merchandise sales, ticket prices and sponsorships/advertisements are increasing so greatly that they're offsetting a significant decrease in attendance year-to-year? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like you're saying. And if that's true, then DCI has better businessmen than I even thought. When you can lose a significant portion of your audience and still significantly increase revenues year after year, well that's downright impressive. Sure, drum corps has lost fans, a good deal of fans. But what does what happened in the 70s and 80s have to do with the activity moving forward? It's unfortunate that those people left, but it's also apparent many of them are not coming back, and I'm not even sure how the activity could regain the favor of someone like up4479 who left in the 90s. My point was that whatever DCI is doing, it's worked during the years that I've analyzed. The activity has become more stable during that time period, isn't that what we all want? That's what I want, but it's clear that some people would rather get upset with a product they do not like on the field than admit that DCI is doing something right. Lastly, what would you like to see DCI do differently? What should they be doing if you don't agree with what they're doing now? And Jeff, these numbers do not include judge expenses or salaries, as I've explained in previous posts.

Honestly, these are some of the most stubborn and close-minded posts I've read on this website. I am now completely convinced that DCI can do no right in your eyes. That said, here are some points to consider: 1. You continue to provide only anecdotal evidence. Just because you say it's fact doesn't make it so. Yes, it's plausible that there was better attendance at DCI events in the 70s and 80s. But that's not fact. Talking to people will provide me with only more anecdotal evidence. 2. That aside, we're not debating whether people have left the activity. Sure they have. That's going to happen, but it's the net result of new blood versus retained fans. Between 2002 and 2008, profits driven by show revenue increased consistently. So HOWEVER many people left during that time, DCI continued to strengthen financially. 3. This financial strengthening is during a period of controversial rule changes - rules that were allegedly driving away large amounts of fans. If many fans are leaving, DCI is not feeling it on the bottom line. 4. Why did people leave in the 80s and 90s? I have no idea! Show design? Other reasons? 1, 2, 3 valve horns? Asymmetrical drill? Honestly, if the activity survived a period where you claim that "tens of thousands" of people were walking away, I think it's in pretty good shape now where it has improved profit margins driven (mostly) by show attendance! Isn't that what we're talking about here? This decade? What relevance does what happened in the 80s and 90s have? 5. Please explain to me how revenue from shows sponsored by DCI is irrelevant to the discussion about attendance. Do you really think that attendance is significantly dropping while revenue and profits increase? Seriously? That's downright delusional. Revenue doesn't even take into account these thousands of discounted and free tickets of which you speak! 6. Your most recent post also still operates on the assumption that "lots and lots and lots" of new people have come to the activity. Saying that doesn't mean anything! Keep trying to make flawed arguments and I'll continue to explain to the readers of this thread why they are flawed (as if it's not obvious).

Revenue: There’s not a lot of detail here, as I’m sure the inquiring public/government wants to know less about how a non-profit generates revenue and more about their expenses. Anyway, the number I provided is simply described as “Program revenue – activities to provide drum corps competitions”. For the purposes of the form, program is (roughly) any activities related to the non-profit nature/mission of the organization. Excluded from that are “video/records/tapes” due to some required exclusion and “DCI Today” which is classified as an “unrelated business income”. Also included in non-program-related revenue are: public contributions, interest, dividends, and sales of assets. So of your above list, I would guess the numbers I provided include sponsorships/advertising, and other merchandise. FN and Theatre revenue is ambiguous because it could go either way in my mind. I don’t know what TEP payments are. Expenses: The description of the number I provided reads “Drum Corps Shows: To provide drum corps competition for a number of major shows and various sanctioned shows.” Separate line-items include the following “Video projects, records/tapes, programs/yearbooks and souvenirs sold to promote drum corps activities by productive of television specials and the sale of records, tapes and souvenirs”. A little outdated (what is a record?), but you get the point. The last program-related expense description they list is “Congress/seminar education division, judges training to provide educational clinics and workshops for drum corps judges.” Other expenses include: compensation, salaries, emp benefits, taxes, accounting, legal fees, supplies, telephone, postage, occupancy, equipment rental/maintenance, printing, travel, interest, depreciation, advertising expenses, bank & credit card chargers, donor expenses, fundraising expenses, insurance, judges & program staff (same as above), other expenses and promotion & entertainment. So I think the expense dollars listed exclude most of your list. I disagree. The financial statements show that fans leaving the activity, for any reason, in the years sampled are not adversely affecting the activity. But did attendance at those local shows dwindle because of the inability to put out a good lineup? I know here in New England, the Open Class shows are almost completely gone. Targets' show is gone. ECJ’s show is gone. Spartans' show is gone. The only open class shows left are Brockton (hosted by an alumni group I believe), Manchester (hosted by the Muchachos) and New London (hosted by 7th Regiment). And those shows have a rough ROUGH time filling out their lineups. If you only have 2 or 3 corps in the region, how are you supposed to draw an audience and recoup your expenses? I phrased that poorly. I did not mean to insinuate that you, personally, think DCI is making poor decisions across the board. Although I’m sure there’s more than a handful of regular posters who do believe that, and that comment should have been directed more towards the general population of malcontents.

All good points. Hopefully here are some more telling numbers. Numbers are not adjusted for inflation, they are as reported on the form 990s. Note that the revenue numbers are slightly different than what I had reported beforehand. The reason is different sources and different accounting methods. My initial source was the form used to demonstrate DCI’s continued eligibility for 501©(3) exempt status and use a cash accounting method. DCI’s books as reported in the real meat of the 990s use an accrual accounting method. If you want the form and line numbers from which I pulled this data let me know and I’ll explain, but it changes as the form does from year to year. Other considerations: this is not an accurate DCI show profit representation but it’s about as close as I can get using just the 990s. The Program Revenue (as I understand it) includes all non-video income DCI receives as part of it’s non-profit operations. This, presumably, is predominantly show income. The show expenses are just that – what they reported as the cost to put on the shows that they did. Of course all the other caveats mentioned before apply (inflation, ticket prices, etc). Draw from this what conclusions you will. Fiscal Year: Program Revenue – Show Expenses = Rough Profit Indicator Nov01 - Oct02: $4,304,114 - $2,927,637 = $1,376,477 Nov02 - Oct03: $5,434,284 - $4,060,146 = $1,374,138 Nov03 - Oct04: $6,142,149 - $4,398,498 = $1,743,651 Nov04 - Oct05: $6,818,493 - $4,637,803 = $2,180,690 Nov05 - Oct06: $6,998,954 - $4,700,103 = $2,298,851 Nov06 - Dec06: $42,355 - $47,513 = ($5,158) 2007: $7,764,993 - $5,066,632 = $2,698,361 2008: $7,610,832 - $4,283,232 = $3,327,600 Acknowledged and understood, but many are insistent that DCI is driving away enough fans to adversely affect the health of the activity. I think this gets into a separate issue. The decline in non-DCI sponsored shows (which I agree has occurred) is due to the decline in number of corps. This is a complete assumption, but I think it’s likely that there are more shows that stopped occurring due to either the sponsoring corps folding or not having enough corps to fill out a lineup, more so than due to dissatisfied fans walking away from the activity. Your data is telling and concerning, but similar to the numbers I provided it does not provide a complete enough picture to make an accurate judgment. I respect the conclusions you’ve drawn from it and your personal experiences but it’s not enough to convince me that DCI is making poor decisions and being mismanaged as an activity. So I guess we’ll agree to disagree (as usual!). I do appreciate you digging up that info though. Show attendance aside, you can not buy BD souvenirs and not donate directly to BD. But BD and Cadets souvenirs still seem to sell like hot cakes (whatever that’s supposed to mean). My point was that you are better off supporting the activity and the groups that you do like, instead of boycotting the entire activity. Unless of course you don’t like the entire activity, which is unfortunate for all parties. I understand Dan doesn’t operate in a vacuum, his organization’s mission is to support the other corps anyway so it would be antithetical of him to make such large decisions without the corps’ input.

Well the bottom line number is the most important one (i.e. you have a better price point if you're making more money at $50 than at $10 though this does not take into account the decrease in overall exposure), but you're absolutely right in saying that price increases are only a temporary "fix" and cannot be done successfully, perpetually. To all those reading, I just figured out that the 2006 numbers I reported were wonky due to them transitioning from a november-october fiscal year to a january-december. I'm currently swimming in 990s trying to put together more relevant data and I’m prepping a post containing it. Should have it up this afternoon. Maybe I could finagle a job out of DCI after this, because I’m sure my current employer wouldn’t approve of the amount of my day I’ve devoted to the analysis of another company!

FYI, I believe these are income figures, so expenses are not included. I was inaccurate to use the term revenue. But yes, ticket prices, inflation and other variables do mean that it's not a 1-to-1 relationship of these dollar figures and attendance numbers.

a) I understand there are other factors. Just as there are more factors than show design and rule changes to explain why people have left the activity. Even so, the numbers I've posted provide FAR greater evidence that DCI is not dying as so many like to claim when weighed against the almost STRICTLY anecdotal evidence being provided to the contrary. b) Are you seriously leaning on the definition of atrophy to support your argument? Semantics. I’ll also challenge the following assertion: “there has been almost universal acceptance of the fact that DCI has lost tens of thousands of fans”. Where are you getting this information? Almost universal acceptance? Seriously, you make some of the most outrageous claims backed up by only your own intuition and then you cast doubt on everything you disagree with. As much as it makes me seem like an a-hole, I’m calling you out for it. “lack of entertainment value was chief among them”, where are you getting that information from? Posts on DCP? People you’ve talked to at shows? I’m not buying your anecdotal evidence, especially if you’re going to challenge tangible revenue evidence. c) I hadn’t challenged the fact of whether DCI has done a study or not, I have no idea. They likely haven’t. My point was that you can’t demand to see a study done to demonstrate why it has lost fans when you don’t even know how many fans DCI has lost!! “If one put the DCI audience numbers on a graph from 1972 to 2009, the graph would have a decidely and unmistakable downward curve” How do you know this? Here’s the straight dope: I gave you 10 years of revenue dollars for DCI that are driven by ticket and merchandise sales. You’ve given me nothing except your constant assertions that the sky is falling. It’s not, in that 10 year period the activity has strengthened. To use your own words, “those who dispute this would need to show me compelling evidence to the contrary to persuade me that this is an incorrect statement.” I gave you evidence. Is it incontrovertible? Absolutely not! Is it more than you (and others) have provided to the contrary? Absolutely. You’re more than welcome to challenge my assertions and conclusions, but you’re going to have to bring more to the table if I’m going to buy it. Prove to me that DCI is losing fans, or losing enough fans to consider the activity to be declining, because I’ve proven that it hasn’t lost ENOUGH fans over a 10 year period to negatively impact their fan-driven revenue! Until you prove it to me, I’m going to continue to call you (and others) out on the constant claims that DCI is driving away “tens of thousands” of fans. Disclaimer: These numbers clearly do not show any negative impact on revenue that either electronic instruments or Lucas Oil Stadium may have over the next 10 years. It more speaks to the lack of negative impact that show design, Bb horns and amplification have had on the activity’s revenue.

Found more historical figures, same line item as my previous post: 1998 – $5,277,091 1999 – $5,206,808 2000 – $6,313,720 2001 – $6,301,156 2002 – $7,262,481 2003 – $8,191,585 2004 – $8,787,155

Some things to note related to many of the recent posts: I see a lot of talk about band kids versus legacy fans, but what about those people that aged-out in the last 5+ years? Us 20-somethings? As perc2100 alluded to, those of us that aged-out in the last decade see drum corps in 2010 as being very similar to what it was when we marched. We are the ‘legacy’ fans of tomorrow, and most of us have jobs and contribute to the activity as much as many current legacy fans. About the suggestion that DCI focus on being a viable business first: isn’t that how we ended up at Lucas Oil Stadium for 10 years? That was, presumably, a very sound (get it?) business decision, but one that many feel is out-of-whack with the artistic and entertainment component of the activity. Achieving the balance of making decisions based on business sense and entertainment value is certainly one of the more difficult challenges facing DCI. A point of clarification: many here talk as if DCI is a singular entity, neglecting the components that make it up. As far as I know, there are 2 major decision-making components of the activity: the DCI organization (Dan Acheson & Co.) and the member corps. I believe DCI (Acheson & Co.) make decisions like relocating the headquarters to Indianapolis and organizing the shows and making DVDs and what-have-you. DCI corps make decisions that impact the product on the field and the corps directly. This distinction is an important one that seems to be often overlooked by many detractors. kstein, you said your group supports individual corps but won’t go to finals. I hope you’re not writing checks to The Cadets or any other group that voted for electronics, because that seems pretty contradictory to your beliefs about what the activity should be like. This applies to show design as well. You don’t like the Blue Devils show design? Don’t support them. Support some Open Class corps instead. And how many people here who complain about DCI have even attempted to support Open Class? I’m sure some, maybe even most, but certainly not all. So if you’re saying “Electronics? Hack-and-slash arranging? Lucas Oil Stadium? I’m done with this” please check out Open Class before you throw your fandom into the trash bin. BRASSO, I have to question your logic in your post above. First you say that you have “seen no research studies commissioned by anybody at DCI HQ”, but then follow that up with your assumption that attendance has atrophied. Well I’ve seen no research studies showing that attendance has atrophied. You can’t demand evidence to show something that you don’t think is happening, then turn around and make your own assumption with no evidence about something you DO think is happening. It makes for a poor argument. On a related note, looking at the 2008 DCI 990, Section A – Public Support, Line Item 2: “Gross receipts from admissions, merchandise sold or services performed, or facilities furnished in any activity that is related to the organization’s tax exempt purpose”, they list the following dollar figures: 2004 – $8,787,155 2005 – $8,769,420 2006 – $812,873 (this figure can’t be accurate…) 2007 – $9,850,227 2008 – $9,278,210 So, if I’m reading this form correctly, DCI’s attendance/merchandise figures over that time period have been relatively static, and it certainly doesn’t bear out the claim that DCI is atrophying fans as many here like to think…although I’m sure the conspiracy theorists will insist that DCI fudged the numbers to hide what’s REALLY happening…

Please, any recent college graduate who lands a decent job has some serious disposable income. I know I live pretty comfortably despite somewhat hefty student loan payments. High school and college age fans are contributing largely as members, but they almost always start as fans. DCI can't be all things to all people. Some will lose interest. Some will gain interest. Some will renew interest. I'm not trying to justify rules like amps and electronics because I think that's relatively unrelated to this discussion - is anyone here saying that electronic instruments attract young fans? I don't believe so. Some questions for those who think DCI is screwing the pooch: What can DCI do to stop the alleged hemorrhaging of legacy fans? Is it as simple as rebanning electronics and amplification? Will that cause a sudden influx of thousands of alienated fans?

I'd contend that while they're not the ones making the decisions, the members are the ones that drive this. If all WC corps but 4 stopped extensive touring and competing, those 4 would see a huge boon in auditions and the remaining corps would have a significantly more difficult time filling out their ranks. Kids want to tour. Kids want to compete. They'll go to the groups that provide this opportunity to them.

There is no parameter. I made those numbers up. They were an example for the sake of discussion. This is pretty short-sighted in my opinion. Who is going to be spending the big money 25 years from now? Hell, if I was instructing I would be spending the big money on tickets right now and I'm less than a decade removed from high school. Yes, right now the legacy fans are very important to the activity, but as they drift away for whatever reason, these band kids will likely be the ones who fill that inevitable void, right?

No and yes, in that order. I don't think the national model should be reduced. World Class groups who can afford to do so should play in as many locations as possible to give more people opportunities to see these incredible groups! Even Open Class groups have done full tours, Teal has been doing a World Class style tour for years now. If the group can do it, then go for it, I say. More regional options would help, but you can't have regional options without corps to compete in them. The only real concentration of Open Class groups is in Southern California, so that's the only area that could conceivably pull it off. Having a mid-season "west coast" championship for these groups would be a great step in the right direction I think. That way groups like Gold, Incognito, Mystikal, Impulse, SCVC and (formerly) BDB who don't come out to Indy evey year can still have a semi-satisfying conclusion to their season. In the meantime corps will just have to make do, which they've been doing. I think Oregon Crusaders opened their season on something like July 20th or later one year because they didn't have any local competitions. But until you have 4 or 5 corps in the northwest, how much sense does it make to have a show out there? The late-July early-August tour-to-Indy model has been working for many Open Class groups, so until there are more corps to make regional touring possible I think the current model is satisfactory.

To what end? Does it make you feel better? This is what I don't understand.

Holy Thread, Batman. This type of discussion is 100% why I willingly wade through the DCP silliness. Some absolutely fantastic posts in here recently. Kudos and thanks to all contributors. We all seem to be boiling down to the same underlying issues and challenges. The general consensus seems to be more (Open Class) corps = more (Open Class) shows = more participants = more fans = more drum corps as an activity. I think that, speaking in generalities, we can all agree on the following: 1. More fans is good 2. The most loyal fans are largely former members 3. Increasing the yearly participation rate is good audiodb mentioned three options for accomplishing number 3, and it’s clear to me that more Open Class corps is the most sensible way to do this. More Open Class corps also results in more Open Class shows, which can provide the opportunity to recreate a regional tour/championship infrastructure (like MikeN mentioned above), and more performance opportunities encourage more prospective members and more prospective members make it easier to start more corps. More corps, more members, more fans, everybody’s happy. It has to start with startup Open Class units though. And there’s little margin for error as far as the health of the activity is concerned. We need intelligent and passionate individuals (or better yet, groups) to start corps and be smart about it so they can maximize their chance of survival. These people are obviously not easy to come by. Think about all the people you marched with…how many of them would you trust to run a business, or better yet partner with in a business venture? I know I marched with a lot of boneheads and also a good deal of people with a passion for drum corps but a lack of intelligence, as crude as that may sound. Then there are the people who are intellectually capable and have a zeal for drum corps, but for whatever reason cannot put the resources of time, effort and money into starting a corps (i.e. family, careers, silly stuff like that). I’m sure many of you reading this are nodding your head right now saying “yup, that’s me”. There are others who have all the capability and resources but no desire, and others who just don’t think it’s a good investment. So we’re down to a rather small group of individuals who could be characterized as realistic prospective successful corps directors. Maybe these individuals should be DCI’s target audience? I’m half joking, but we need more corps to start up (and not fail) over the next 5 years. I think it’s the single most important challenge facing the activity. Things like amplification and electronics are relatively minor comparatively (which is largely why I could care less about them), but they get discussed 5 million times more frequently. But I agree with Rifuarian’s point that A&E (or woodwinds for that matter) are not going to attract a significant amount of new blood to the activity and adding instrumentation should not be a focus of DCI as an organization. You absolutely killed it (in a good way) when it comes to getting band kids to march and/or become fans. The band I tech is fortunate enough to be in a slightly higher income bracket where maybe 30 kids out of 200 or so in the past 7 or 8 years have been able to march (also, myself included), but it helps considerably having an Open Class option within driving distance. Your statement about the less affluent yet competitive programs that exemplify drum corps the most absolutely resonates with me as well. The only difference of opinion I have is that many of the kids that I’ve taught would love to continue to compete on the field after graduation but there is no competitive college circuit. I was fortunate enough to discover drum corps to satisfy that desire, but I would bet 80% of them miss competitive band the fall after they graduate quite a bit, they just miss it less with each passing year and that’s when general interest in the marching activity dissipates. As stated, this is an issue with a much more ambiguous solution.

Fair enough, although the 990s give some insight into what the money is being spent on. But here's the rub: if you're giving at the DCI level, then the organization to which you're giving has little influence on the rule changes (which is really the crux of what we're talking about). Now, you should be able to contact DCI directly and ask them questions about the operations side of things, and they should provide that information to you as someone who donates to their organization. I'm sure someone on here has written DCI directly and insisted on answers related to what they plan to do about the sound cocerns at LOS. If they don't or haven't given you the information for which you're looking, well then you have a legitimate gripe. But that's where the emotional investment comes into play. We can't just rip up our checks and walk away if we don't like what's going on, because we care too much about the activity. Which really puts us in a helpless position, unfortunately. If the rules changes are the concern, then our only recourse is to not support the organizations that are leading the charge. As Hopkins is traditionally vilified as the originator of many unsavory rule changes, shouldn't he be seeing the discontent reflected in Cadets/YEA donations and souvenir sales? If he is, maybe YEA is so successful that they can absorb the hit. If he isn't, then is the discontent as widespread as it is perceived to be?