audiodb

Question about your proposal, garfield.... I've noticed that corps with bingo or similar charitable gaming setups don't all do their accounting the same way. Some include the gross receipts (and expenses) of their gaming on their 990s, thus creating much larger numbers on their balance sheets. How would you treat this? For example, say both corps A and corps B cost $500,000 to operate in a given year. Both corps raise 90% of this money via appearance fees and revenue sharing from DCI, member dues, and souvie sales. For the remaining $50,000, corps A conducts a series of labor-intensive fundraisers (i.e. car washes, recycling drives). Corps B raises their $50,000 from a bingo operation that grosses $4,000,000, paying out $3,950,000 in prizes and expenses of operation, thus returning $50,000 to the corps. Do you consider corps B's balance sheet to be $500,000 or $4,450,000?

That's a good point. If we want to fill more seats, we need to play to more seats. That's why I've been suggesting that we move the press box judges around. Place them in a different location at each show, without giving the corps advance notice....this would force corps to design shows to communicate to the whole concert-side seating area, rather than focusing solely on the press box.

There's a key distinction to be made there when specific corps disagree with DCI over what they should be paid. It is not as simple as "DCI = the corps" in that context....if it was, we'd simply split the money evenly among the 23 WC corps.

But that's just it....what is the big attraction? When the Blue Devils perform outside of the context of a DCI contest (i.e. their preview show), they draw the same size audience that Pacific Crest draws at their sneak preview the same weekend. Of course, neither of these individual corps' previews draws anything remotely close to the larger crowds/higher ticket prices of the DCI contests they participate in. If the Blue Devils really were "the draw", they would pull similar crowds paying similar ticket prices to see them perform whether it's a contest or not, and without regard to the presence of other corps. DCI contests are the big attraction.

Corps don't fill seats....DCI does. Let me explain what I mean. I've seen how fans behave for decades. When Carolina Crown was placing 16th, they weren't filling all the seats. When they were contending for the top spots, the seats filled in. The 5th-place Madison Scouts fill far more seats then the 15th-place Madison Scouts. The 15th-place Madison Scouts filled roughly the same number of seats as any other 15th-place corps. Seats don't fill up simply for "the Madison Scouts" or "Carolina Crown"....they fill up for whomever is on top at any given moment. If the 2012 season sees Pacific Crest, Mandarins, Teal Sound, Cascades, Jersey Surf and Pioneer as the dominating top six, the seats will be fullest when they are performing, and some fans will skip the performances of Cadets/Blue Devils/Cavaliers/Crown/PR/SCV to go watch Crest/Mandarins/Teal/Cascades/Surf/Pioneer in the lot. The current occupants of the top DCI spots want you to believe that "the draw" is: Cadets Blue Devils Cavaliers Crown PR SCV Bluecoats In reality, "the draw" is: DCI 1st place DCI 2nd place DCI 3rd place DCI 4th place DCI 5th place DCI 6th place DCI 7th place

Saying they "don't care" is not accurate. No matter what choices all these corps make, only one will win (barring ties). There are 23 corps in the championship contest (more now, with the combined prelims). Obviously, not all 23 can possibly enjoy good odds of winning. The ones with the worst odds find that it is healthier to adopt some perspective....instilling a "win or bust" attitude leads to busting. Doesn't mean they don't care.

Not following you. 1. First of all, it's "top DCI corps", not "top corps". 2. Top DCI corps can do whatever they want with the revenue they generate. No one is demanding that the Blue Devils hand over their bingo money or their souvie revenue to other corps. The revenue DCI generates, however, is distributed per their own policies. Even in garfield's plan, the money being directed to what you mischaracterize as "bottom corps" is DCI revenue. 3. I know what your response will be...."top DCI corps are the draw, blah blah blah".

My views are based on data as well. As for which data matters, or how to interpret it, YMMV. Understood. Pretty much the same here. I think a few people find this interesting, and I like to hear their viewpoints as well. For the rest, anyone who considers this thread "torture" will simply stop clicking on it....problem solved.

Well, since we're taking rhetoric out of any possible contextual relevance, how about.... Time for the rich to start paying their fair share!

And who determines who the "top performing groups" are? Or the same way the Blue Devils first made top 3 in 1975, a position vacated by the departure of the Kingsmen. And didn't BD win a title in 1994 right after some top corps from Indiana left DCI? Maybe you remember. Now, do you think those departures really make a difference in how the Blue Devils' achievements are perceived? But in DCI, there is no "one" bringing people in. If there was, they'd draw the same crowd by themselves....and they don't. The big crowds only show up when there's a contest going on. Oh, I agree 100% with that last sentence. (Take it out of context, and read it again....)

Of course. Geez, the resale arrangements are public knowledge. You think this is news to me? Maybe if you say it often enough....

If that was the case, no one would be running a drum corps.

In other words, you don't have the specifics, since you are not privy to individual deals between corps and suppliers....so you'll have to settle for general dismissiveness. I don't recall saying that the terms of endorsement deals are the same whether it's Blue Saints or Blue Devils....and I am aware that there's a difference between a 10% discount on drum sticks vs. the various arrangements for annual full hornline or drumline re-equipping. But go ahead, just declare that I have "absolutely no idea what I'm talking about" again. Maybe if you say it often enough, people will believe it.

Why should the goals and finances of the organization give BDB the right to choose, but not Jersey Surf?

Interesting. They used to do that in the Northwest circuit in the 1960s and early 1970s....three scores above a certain number earned your corps promotion from class B to class A, effective at the very next contest.

What? By your logic, when the NFL instituted draft picks in reverse order of competitive record (worst teams pick first): 1. Winning teams would have had no motivation to succeed. 2. Winning teams would have left the NFL to do their own thing. 3. Without "the draw" of the top teams, the NFL would have folded. We're talking about a competitive league, not an office. There are already plenty of incentives and rewards for excellence that are inherent to the competitive league.

OK, we get it....you'll never learn. Top corps are the draw, blah blah blah. Perhaps if you repeat it often enough, others will believe it. Good luck in that endeavor. Hmmm...."top performing corps"....something's missing. OK, let's look at that. For decades, endorsement deals were limited to corps with single-digit finals placements. In the past decade, they've spread throughout world-class, and even open-class corps are getting endorsements. So by your logic, those lower-placing corps have become bigger draws over the past 10 years, and deserve a bigger slice of the DCI pie. Hmmm...."top corps"....still think something's missing. There you go again...."top corps". You know what's always missing when you say that? DCI. What you (and the G7) are really saying is that "top DCI corps" attract attention. And thus, that's the problem with the empty threat of corps leaving DCI....once they leave, they are no longer "top DCI corps". If they're gone, they're not "top DCI corps". Whichever remaining DCI corps prevail competitively will reap the benefits accorded to "top corps". Again, endorsement deals extend throughout world-class, well into open-class. For that matter, DCA corps are getting endorsement deals. How is that possible? Your "top corps" were never in DCA. Make that past tense.

Well, this is interesting.... Ingenious. An original idea for realigning DCI's incentives in a constructive way. Of course, it'll never happen....but just having this concept on the table for discussion is quite valuable. So if the G7 mantra was correct, and they really are "the draw", then they have the option to prove it by choosing non-member status, and keeping all those dollars that they supposedly draw in personally. Brilliant! They'll jump at the chance, if they really believe what they're saying. Oh, wait.... I'd say that phrase alone does a fine job of introducing the concept.

No need to get emotional. I'm not sure we've established that....even in Academy's case. Yes, they were good in 2004....but they were competing in 2004. Before they started competing, I believe the most they put together was just the music sections of a corps performing a song or two at standstill. Do you have examples of corps that got good and stable without competing, as you say?

And what exactly did Academy do? In case you don't recall, they competed in division II for three seasons, touring to DCI Championships in the third year. Without those experiences, they would not have had the corps that they did....and DCI would not have had that evidence of their abilities (on and off the field) on which to gauge their readiness for world-class.

Not following you. (Not even on your syllable count.)

I thought we were talking about administering kids' marching band.... And even better to don flame-retardant clothing first, then reach higher....

You do realize that Disney doesn't limit access to the ride to the 30 tallest people. They set quantifiable criteria....and however many people meet that criteria can ride. Maybe if you did the same by explaining your criteria, instead of just saying "top 15 17"....

How? How would Crown have made top-17 in 1994, if they had nowhere to compete in 1990-1993? How would Blue Stars have made it in come 2006, had there been no other classes for them to participate in 1983-2005? How would Academy have made it in come 2007? If by some miracle, they developed that same program in a vacuum, how/where would they have demonstrated to DCI that they were ready for world-class?