BigW

There are a few things I need to think about and bring up before discussing the next big mess, the Grand Prix. Looking back at that and what happened, knowing what I know now with various things in play with various individuals, I think that was a watershed moment that decided a lot about the corps' future. Let me put it this way, when the DCI people on DCP say that one should never boo a show, it's so meanieheaded and politcically incorrect and bad and does terrible things to the performers, I say, baloney. And I can say it because I have been booed, so had Ben, and every Westshoremen who performed at that contest. I don't remember it affecting anyone in the corps negatively. In fact I took it as a good chip on the shoulder.

I didn't say better- comparable. There is a difference. And the "what" advantage the top 5 had created a lot of that gap on them from last year. Doing more in terms of difficulty also drives that bottom number more heavily than people think, and the top 5 did. I can't comment on the Open Southern corps or the Gades. Hopefully, this year, I'll have that opportunity to get a good look and listen. Hmm. Also... the excellence number for Fusion is above the difficulty? There's a strong message being sent right there. My educated guess is that the DCA numbers are anchored- that the bottom number is only allowed to be so far above the top and vice versa, and from the looks of it, they sure seem to be likely to be pushing that kind of restriction if there is one....

He ain't kidding. Their nuts and bolts are every bit as good. Now the arranging last year, etc. not quite. In other words, 'how' they played was there, more the question of needing more of 'what' they played.

I didn't mention FC by name, but I did mention that one of the smaller horn lines were playing with equivalent quality. You're not crazy for believing so at all. In terms of mechanics, they are comparable at worst, period. There's just fewer of them. It's really true that a smart, smaller hornline can beat up on a bigger oaf. There's no question. The problem is when you start trying to sound 'bigger'... or this, more than anything- When you have 48ish or mroe horns, there are usually enough people to cover. When I had a rough go, I knew I could back down because the other 5 guys on lead were usually strong. When they had a rogh time- they also counted on me as well. When you have 2-3 max on a part, you can't afford to have a bad day. Is this credited as much as it could or should be? Sometimes, not as much as it proabably should be. The thing is-- When you're looking at Effect, cleanliness gets you so far, but not all the way, nor should it. Having those extra bodies, if everything else is roughly the same in quality or comparable can lift you and get the gap. You hopefully have a larger dynamic scope and can demonstate a more mature ensemble sound and more depth of musicality- if the arrangements are good. From what I gather, arranging precisely for what and who they had was a big piece of the puzzle for the Govies in Class A last year. Also, I would say there are fewer real big, unwieldly oafish horn lines if any in DCA anymore. I'm not constantly facepalming and eyebrow-raising like I used to years ago about give-away mistakes out of the hornlines. Everyone knows you have to be musical and demonstrate exceptional technique and not just blow your ever-lovin' brains out nowadays. Anyhow, I really appreciate the chance to chat seriously with you and Donny. I like to think hard about the activity, music and musicianship, something my job keeps me from. For that, I really do thank the both of you!

I'm not saying you can't put up a good fight, John. Boston Crusaders put one up for many years with 24-30 horns and finished a decent 15th to 17th many seasons doing that, but they had to get the bodies to get where they are now. I can tell you there's a smaller Open Class DCA corps whose horn line plays with a comparable quality to a few of the top hornlines, very comparable, but the fact they're down a significant number of bodies will make it tough. The Hurcs have been marching about 40ish horns for several years in DCA, and my guess is it's been a large part of the picture as to why they can't quite crack the top. They're just short those extra 12-20 bodies that really help in so many ways.

From the info I've seen and from watching (I usually do a rough count when possible for reviews, that time I couldn't), Pio had less than 30 brass last season, Donny. You and I know if you don't bring enough guns to the fight no matter what talent is behind the triggers, it's an uphill battle all the way! 30 vs 52-60 is pretty one sided regardless of Jr. vs. Senior. I had to think very seriously about your comment about the scores being similar. It could be that the panels were really micro-managing numbers as they moved up the contest slate and were pretty much ending up sticking similar numbers into certain points of the contest regardless to leave more room at the top so they had more wiggle-room when some of the top groups hit the field and they could make sure they had room for when they got to the corps on certain points of the bubble. That's what comes to mind here as an answer. Or, the earlier corps in 2011 were better than anticipated and pushed the numbers higher than in 2010 by the time Pio hit the field. That's also very possible. OR- the panel was more generous or instructed to start at a certain number for the contest. I would personally hope that it was a personal generosity issue, and not a 'suggestion' from higher-ups that 'numbers must go up!'. That, we'd never know the truth on. Maybe the thing to say is no really 'fair' way to compare. There, I'll be glad to agree with you, hands down.

MBI, even with holes in the brass section and a rough run at Lewisburg in mid-July were notably better than what I saw and heard of 2011 Pioneer in their prelims performance. The top 5 in DCA would have been better. For that matter, Fusion Core were cleaner with a more solid show and performance. So yes, you can set some kind of a break-point there if you must. But I really think it's sort of pointless in saying the better DCA units beat the bottom end of DCI. They'd better for several reasons, manpower alone as well as experience. Several of those corps are totally atypical of a modern DCI unit in so many aspects- especially the fact they're taking anyone who sticks it out, not culling the top one in 3 to one in ten kids who try out. Two of them in particular also have the disadvantage of being from regions where there's not a strong Instrumental Music program in the schools to feed them kids who can read music and play their instruments at a decent level when they show up.

Last year, Donny. before that, I'd have to have seen more of a 2010 clip to get a feel for it. Didn;t see them in 2010. But last year- Donny, I felt bad when I saw them, man. Not sayin' it to make fun.

Ed. from what I saw of Pioneer on the simulcast, your assessment and ranking of them might be quite a bit high, sad to say.....

"Better" is arguable as a serious race fan. there's a kind of parallel, though. F1 has a sky-high budget, and can be seriously argued to represent the pinnacle of the activity. IndyCar/IRL puts on a heckuva great show, drivers have gone from one to the other, and the ones coming from F1 can't get over the friendlier atmosphere and the fans, who are far more polite to them. I can tell you stories on that from personal experience. The cars are a lot cheaper to build and maintain, but the show is great, very affordable to go and see, and the fans are knowledgeable, too. Back in the early 70's there WAS an event created to compare the F1 and Indy cars, the Questor Grand Prix: http://counter-x.net/f1/questor/index.html Which kinda worked but was never repeated. I liked the Dream, the West Chester show, and the Hershey Spectacular, where you could see DCI and DCA corps doing their thing at the same show. But I just never compared them as to 'who was better". I went to see the variety of ideas and to enjoy them for what each one is...

Interesting. I know Frank was kind of somewhere around your age and mine. I wasn;t certain which direction. Scary I was already in my 4th year of corps when Frank joined up. You have to admit the foggy video quality along with Geno's big 'stash and dark shades under that sombrero would lead to a possible case of mistaken ID here.

John! Now that you're here, I have another question. Your comment on GT conducting and knowing your role with Cabs Alumni and how you perform-- did the Percussion section in 1977 have a full time dedicated on field assistant conductor similar to the alumni, or was GT just conducting for the percussion for Tico-Tico? I'm always curious about how certain things were and are done. I can always learn a new trick or three, or make a suggestion with a group I work for and back it up with past practice as not being crazy to do. You been doing well, etc!?

Fire! Target! BITD when I did perform, and there was an very, very early season combined show with DCI corps in '82 and '83, and before they had all the rehearsal and tour time- the fans and DCW spoke well of us in comparison. Once they got on tour and finished the show, they'd have clocked us badly. You just can't compare one unit practicing weekends to one that's basically in a near constant state of rehearsal all summer. You put even and old as heck me into that scenario, my chops get a LOT better, I lose a LOT of weight and get into fighting shape. But who would pay my bills for me on tour !?!?!?

As I said before, It's like comparing an Indy Car to a Formula One car. Why bother? And as it's been just said, the answer nowadays is obvious. In the 60's before the touring model and similar judging sheets, not so obvious. Pretty much the same for the cars, too before one went to a spec series and the other went for cutting edge technology. Kind of a similar issue...

I'm sorry of I was a bit reticent about links. The link I have I am unsure if its "official", the one here most definitely is an approved and official corps link. I can tell yah this, Fred: If you google a year and corps name and use Google video search, you might be floored at what might come up. I've found some rather neat nuggets doing just that. The ones I'm really looking for myself and can't find out there are Glassmen when they did their Kodaly shows and the Blue Knights Trittico programs. Other than that, there's a fair amount of material floating in the cyber-cloud. I'm sure there are some people semi-aghast here that I'd be listening and looking for that goofy Modern stuff, but I like GOOD modern stuff, which those shows are.

I have no clue who has the copy. It was part of why I ended up with Westshore, to be certain. That and a good friend who recruited me.

AHHA! THAT is "Geno"! Thank you so much for filling in that question I've had for over 30 years. I figured someone would know- it's about 2 years before I kissed the book and took the King's shilling with Westshore.

Realistically, if you go into Music Education, you need to have the skills and knowledge to be able to run choir, band, orchestra, and teach general music from K-12. I have done all of it. Some things, better than others, but you have to have the depth of knowledge and skills to do it. I worked my CAN off at WCU to fill the gaps in vocal, woodwinds, and strings to get that degree. I also found out from a fellow NJA person who's a WCU grad- Ream knows him for sure- indoor person- that they wipe out 80 to 90 percent of the people, I'm a survivor, like it did any good, and I have told WCU this. I've discussed some of the issues with this with a school admin in Frederick County, MD who Ream and I judge with off and on. Maryland schools tend to have a stock set of questions they ask every teacher. It;s their game and the way they play it. I asked him Why, for a band directors job, the questions are geared towards teaching English, Math, History, but NOT towards finding a competent Band Director, but more of a good classroom General Music teacher!?!?!?! He thought about it, and he told me he hadn't thought about that before, but I definitely had a HUGE point. In many cases down there, they end up with what Jeff describes, Mr. or Ms. Bland student teacher, who might be a great General Music person, but is clueless about running a band rehearsal, wind band literature, or putting together a decent field program. It's why it's hit or miss in MD in many cases with their bands. Sometimes they actually find a great person. More often, someone who takes the job, then tries to get out within their large county wide district systems to a general music gig and then creates a revolving door for that program where they never get an experienced and capable individual at the helm.

Seen some vintage Allentown footage, the video quality is okay for 1977. Frank Ponzo... is that you on solo at the end of the show? Mom and I were unsure- glasses, stash... and if it's not you, who is it?

From what I saw, Hank, being Hank, a very unassuming guy who loved to teach jazz to people, was just pleased as punch someone cared enough about his and Don's music to do a show about it and reach more people with it. Maybe some people who marched that season might be able to get more of a direct response to that, Sam. I'm of the opinion that the "Chain Reaction" segment- HIS composition, is the centerpiece of that BD show, as much as I like the rest of the program. I would have KILLED to have played that bari solo. It's in the meat of the horn, and there is SO much you can do with it to make it musical, which that cat definitely does. In the documentary, several Ellis Band members talk about the fact Hank's compositions were the ones that really grooved. NOT Don's. With Kenton- it seems mixed. Many guys there were scared of his stuff, and didn't quite get it. Stan DID, which was what really counted. Mike Vax's Kenton Alumni Band keeps Pegasus on the repertoire, I know there's a YouTube of them doing it last I knew, I have personally begged Mike to do it when I have seen them live and to do "Hank's Opener", "Indra, and "Samba Siete", but no go with those.... I also think there are some clips of a Towson State University Alumni band or three doing a lot of Hank's compositions out there on the net, and really, it's great stuff. Obviously, I like Don and Hank a ton. I got the documentary directly from the creators, who sent me a signed note saying from talking to them on ths phone, Hank would have loved me as a student. I wish I'd have known about him when I was changing majors and schools...

Not everyone gets along. All I know is nothing was said for the 6 years I was at LD about the previous situations. I was given an opportunity to use my degrees for 9 years to some extent, something for which I am still appreciative. I truthfully consider my Mus.Ed. degree and M.S. in Ed. something of a serious waste of my parents and others money in many aspects, and feel pretty bad about it. I am well trained to educate, I feel when I have been given opportunities I do a fine job, but really, it's more about who you know and whose hinder was kissed or who is cheaper or viewed as more politically correct for the situation in many cases. In theory, my degrees should have value in the real world, and they quite frankly, do not. Dauphin County prison didn't even think they were worth anything for Adult Ed in their prison system, even though I had worked as a volunteer at Camp Hill State Prison for a time and my Master's is in Educational Strategies- something you'd think might be important in educating a troubled adult who doesn't want to go back into prison when he gets out, but I guess that's just me thinking that way. Even though people who teach there had more experience in elementary ed.... Even went and applied to work as the Training Supervisor in the Steel Mill Dad was at and I had even worked at as an hourly, even after experience on the UPS Safety commitee, not even an interview. The person they hired was a disaster. Dad was miffed. Even though Music educators (the competent ones) have to have knowledge of history, art, science, math, etc... it has no bearing on the real world according to HR people. So-- yes, I know there are rather hard feelings and why-- just the chance I was given to prove I could actually work with a solid program and enable it to succeed, and do things and be an important part of it as a professional educator meant a lot to me and still does. I'm that person that gets overlooked, left out, pretty much underrated. It is what it is, and at least I had that chance at one time, even limited as it was. I have to get back to work- and yes, I do feel there are some Band Directors out there that should have my job- and vice versa. And we know who many of them are.

Hmm. Yeah I heard about the people in the gutters at those Balmer parades. That was just before I signed on. I knew the HANOVER song... just we never sang it enough for me to learn it. I'd argue Chant and Jubilo is a good piece for a competitive band if you: Edit the heck out of the chant to just a few seconds to lead into the first hit. Crank the initial stuff to at least 144 and NOT slow down and let the piece bog. The final section has to run at least 160+ and haul. I can see writing some pretty decent material percussionwise for the fast part- I might suprise some of you with some ideas for that. I hung around enough of you perc people for long enough to have a good feel for groove. If I can't write it I could say it... I know for a band entering serious compeition, I could make the chart work. Trust me. I wouldn't set the piece on cruise control like the tendency to do with it is. It'd be going like the Batmobile with the jet exhaust down the streets of Gotham. No boring crap out of me. The REAL issue with M-Town was kind of glossed over in the discussion and just the fact you do William Francis McBeth for an opener then switch to Brian Wilson, then to Jim Jones, for God's sake, the program effect-wise had no real flow and connections! Also, no branding for the band as to what their identity was! Even by 1989 and before that, most quality competitive bands had a handle on things like that! When I was at LD scouting, that was the usual issue. Neat Wind Ensemble opener, then a bunch of silly powder-fluff to end the program that had no connection nor made sense with that opener. Lemme tell you-- Williamsport BITD with Paul Kellerman- at least when he did Wind Ensemble, he picked three tunes that generally flowed well and connected from one piece to another in regards to pacing and interest. THey also played insanely clean for that era. Ben, Rook, and I watched them at an ACC's in Scranton BITD when they were still smokin' and my comment was, "I *May* have heard one performance issue for the entire show." The last year Paul had them- still great, but not as clean. Maybe my ears were a lot better. I would say, a combination of the two.

You should know by now I'm good at that.

Not so much as it used to be, Jeff. After Wheldon's death, IndyCar has only 4 Oval tracks on schedule, vast majority are now Road Courses. And to be honest, The place I like to go to best now is Mid-Ohio. Nice people, great seats, beautiful venue, and awesome VIP perks for less per person than crap seats in NASCAR. Speaking of which, I need tickets for Prelims for Annapolis... thank you for reminding me...

To what paradigm and rubric is it "better"? It does make a difference when you prepare to meet one set of ribrics over another. And BITD, the rubrics were more similar or likely nearly identical. Again, things have changed. The touring model and massive hours of rehearsal advantage have given the DCI units a serious edge. Also, both organizations have different goals and objectives for what defines excellence. Indy Cars and Formula One cars to an untrained observer might be the same thing. Yes, they're open wheel race cars that are very fast, but inside, they're built to two entirely different sets of goals, philosophies, and specs. Same thing here. You could put them on a track and test- but it's kind of pointless.