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Nope, not burned. :P But guards in the late '70s on through the '80s sold their shows differently than they do now. They sold it through intensity on equipment. If you were there, then there was no denying the incredible impact of a rifle line like 27th Lancers nailing their book. A strict military demeanor is not a lack of expression. It's a particular style of performance, and those guards nailed it. Now, if you prefer the choreographed style of today, that's fine. But it doesn't mean guards of the past lacked the intensity of guards today, or that they were any less commanding in their presence. If you're into military intensity and precision in execution, then they were every bit as commanding as guards of today. In fact, if equipment work is the focus, then those guards would be considered more commanding because they generally nailed their work better than guards of today. But they also didn't have as many other demands placed on them with movement and choreography, so it was only natural that they would be superior in equipment execution. Don't confuse style with substance. Guards are good today, for different reasons than they were 20 years ago. Guards were equally good then, for different reasons.

I would add Cavaliers to the list. For me, Blue Devils, Cadets and Cavaliers are the "big three" in terms of guard in recent years.

In a way, I'm kind of surprised that the idea for the white geomotric mats Blue Devils used in 1990's "Tommy" never took off. When I saw that, I figured they would be the next big fad. But I'm really not surprised. I'll bet they were a bear to march on, always the danger of catching an edge or tripping on a ripple in the fabric. But they were distinctive, and gave the marching field a completely different look . . . in much the same way floor coverings erased the gymnasium floor for winter guard.

Actually, if you go through this thread, you'll see Madison mentioned numerous times . . . deservedly so. I mentioned the 1978 through '80 lines in an earlier posting because those were the ones I saw in-person. But just going by their reputation and what I've seen on tape, I know that they had some powerhouse lines prior to that, as well.

This sort of ties in with Nancy's comment about Spirit's '80 rifle line. Another rifle line that strikes me in a similar way is an overlooked line: 1981 Garfield Cadets. They executed pretty well, but were also very stylish and did some really cute things (hand positions, body work, etc.), all while maintaining a fair bit of demand on their equipment. Speaking of stylish . . . I really enjoy Blue Devils' '81 line. Though, to be fair, they were on rifles for what? Half the show? Maybe more. It's hard to tell, given the telecast editing. And I saw them in Louisville that year, but I've destroyed too many brain cells since then to remember a detail like that. The main thing I remember watching was their flag line . . . and I couldn't take my eyes off the new guard uniforms. But I like what they did, and the way they did it. And yes, '81 27th Lancers . . . good Lord, ladies! You did some blinding, kick-### ####! Sorry, but expletives seem appropriate here. :P Seriously, Two-Seven's rifle line was so amazing that year, not only with what they did, but how well they did it. I wish I could see the finals performance at Montreal, because I suspect there weren't the drops on a couple of exchanges that happened at Whitewater. (And were the only performance breaks I could see in an extremely difficult show.) I keep wanting to go back and watch the '80 rifle line, though . . . in part because of the red jackets. But I can see why they had the rifle line in the same uniform as the flags in '81; that enabled them to go back and forth from rifle to flag. I realize I'm restating the obvious, but Two-Seven's rifle lines really were state-of-the-art in drum corps. There have been many fine lines before, and since, but for me, they'll always be the epitome of what it means to be a truly great rifle line.

That's how I see it. Even though it was only a partial floor, not the full floor-covering we started seeing in the late '80s, it was still a first, something no one had ever done before.

If memory serves correctly (and it rarely does for me, these days), that was Conquest.

You could be right, Nancy, but if that's the case, I don't remember it. (Of course, there's tons of stuff I've forgotten, so that doesn't mean a whole lot.) I clearly remember Erte having that floor covering, and it striking me as being the first time I'd seen something like that used. But it could be the way they used it, which highlighted that guard's creativity, and that's why it created such a strong image in my mind. Anyway, yes, Erte was a fantastic winter guard. They will always be one of my favorites.

Let's see, 79 NS rifle line, does anyone remember if that was the year they were in a line and did this thing with one leg up and they bent over and put their rifle through the leg of the next person. Um kind of difficult to explain, if so, that's the year I did love! I believe that was the year one of our rifle techs and all around guard guru Stephen Covitz taught them... I think I know the move you're talking about. Is it during "Good Vibrations"? If so, I remember it slightly differently from what you describe . . . so I may not be remembering the right thing. It's when each member of the rifle line extends one leg, propping it up on the person next to them, and then bends down and spins their rifle around their own leg. I'd forgotten how good this rifle line was, but you're both right. They had really tight timing, flawless execution and technique, and did some pretty amazing tricks. Which is why I thought it was too bad that they got stuck on those silver-streamer thingamajigs at the end of the show. Here you've got this fantastic rifle line, but they're relegated to a prop that, IMO, wasn't nearly as effective as if they'd been allowed to finish on the piece of equipment they were so good at. (I know you could say a thing or two about that, Nancy. '78 poms?) And yes, Boston's rifle line was great during that period, too.

I like your list, ChicagoFan. And yes, though they don't get mentioned often, Troopers in '81 had an unbelievably tight rifle line. They just nailed everything.

LOL! Sorry 'bout the exertion! Good to know my memory isn't the only one that relies on the printed record. And thanks for your answer, Trish! Now, my other question: I know State Street won it outright in '87. But who placed second? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Odyssey's remarkable "peer pressure/conformity" show; I think they placed . . . fourth? Gosh, I wish I'd written this stuff down. I thought it wouldn't be necessary because I'd remember everything. Needless to say, I didn't. (Miller's Blackhawks and Blessed Sac should be up there. But I feel like I'm leaving somebody out.) What I do remember about that afternoon is that after all the Open Class guards had performed, Union High School came out and did their breathtaking "mannequins" show in exhibition. And, as good as all the guards were, many of us felt that they were the best guard we'd seen all day. Speaking of great rifle lines--and great guards--1987 St. Anthony's Imperials had an incredible show. They just kept going and going; as the music built, so did their equipment work. Not only was it a prop-less show, but it was one of the first shows that had a nearly seamless flow from beginning to end. A sign of things to come. . . .

No, it was a tie . . . two years in a row. I remember feeling unsettled about it the first year, and then outraged the second. Like, two years in a row? C'mon! Now that you mention Odyssey, yeah, I think they were the ones who tied with State Street in '86.

LOL! I always called that the "drop dead" look. Same thing. Now, it would've been really interesting to see how it would've come out if Skylarks had done the show they were capable of. But, of course, that's not how it happened. On any given day, anything can happen. Which is as it should be. By the way . . . totally off-topic, but I'm sure someone here can answer this question. In 1985, State Street tied for first place with the wonderful Erte Productions. In 1986, State Street again tied with another guard for first place. Who was it? I'm thinking that in 1987, State Street won it outright. Who was in second place? My memory seems to have done a fast fade on those particular years, and I can't find anything in my stack of stuff to remind me.

I'll add '83 Skylarks to the list . . . right up until WGI finals. They were so unbelievable in prelims. I couldn't believe what happened to them in finals. It was like watching two different guards. I just felt sick for them, because they just blew everyone away in prelims. They were like a machine: mesmerizing, powerful, and truly awesome. I agree with you about the '83 Cavies winter guard, Jan. They had the exact opposite experience of Skylarks; drops all over the place in prelims, but then they had a much better show in finals . . . stronger than Skylarks. As a result, they won. I know competition is all about "on any given day" . . . and I commend Cavaliers for doing their best show at the right time. But it was still heartbreaking, from Skylarks' point of view.

Just FYI, there's an edit function you can use if you want to clean up typos. I've used it many a time to fix my misspellings, grammar, wording, factual errors, etc.

You'll get no argument from me. I've believed for a long time now that things are getting too "busy" to work visually. There's a reason why simplicity works so well in design, and I think many drum corps/color guard designers have lost sight of that. It seems like the more frantic the visual image, the more cluttered with elements, the "better" it is. (After all, it works for MTV, so it must work eveywhere else. Right?) I think that when it fits the music, that manic interpretation works, but not throughout an entire show. I see a whole lotta stuff that just ain't musical, in my opinion.

LOL! I salute you. I've gained--and lost--waaaay more than that since then.

Yeah, I figured that was the case. I guess that's the advantage of marching in a corps, as I did, that didn't do so well competitively; you get to see everybody! :(

Long red streamers. They just look black on videotape. :P And you know, I was there watching the show in-person, but never noticed the drop till years later, when I was watching a tape of the telecast. And even then, I don't see where the drop occurred. The only reason I notice that a rifle was dropped is because you can see one of the rifle line members without her rifle just as they're marching to the front sideline to pick up their streamers. The weird thing is that looking at the field, I can't see a dropped rifle out there. So where did it go? I guess if you're gonna drop, that's the way to do it . . . so that no one notices.

I loved both of these, too! And I also loved the look of Two-Seven's rifle uniform . . . but that busby must've weighed a ton! Seems to me you'd have to do neck exercises just to be able hold your head up while wearing it. :P I agree with your comments about the "bridesmaid" uniforms. Simpler is better in so many instances, and I thought a lot of the bridesmaid dresses were just too ornate to work visually. And they also softened what had been such a tough, but classy, look. The lone exception to this, IMO, is what Phantom Regiment's guard wore in 1987. I adored that uniform, not just because it was an attractive design that went well with the corps' music and theme, but it was also added a gorgeous visual impact to the guard.

I remember hearing about that in Birmingham. Did she make a full recovery? (A burst appendix is very dangerous, and can result in serious health complications.) I asked about Spirit's rifle line member way back when on RAMD. Here's the Google link to that thread: Missing rifle in Spirit '80 Steve Sorrell provided the answer. This gal apparently had to miss finals due to illness or injury from 1978 through 1981, and finally got to march finals her age-out year in 1982.

The only place I've seen this is in the BD website interview of George Hopkins, in which the article's author attributes that comment to Hopkins. But, as we discussed on RAMD, it was not a direct quote, so it's hard to figure out if George said it, or the author said it, or there was some sort of conversation between the two and it was paraphrased thusly. But no, I've never heard or read any direct quote of Rosie O'Donnell along those lines. For anyone who hasn't read it by now, here's the article that's the source of this debate: Interview with George Hopkins

You can take ANY corps from the last ten years or more and compare it to the 70s and early 80s corps, and there is NO comparison...rifles are rarely used. Yes, they might use them as impact points, but in the earlier eras, all we had was rifles and flags...hardly any other equipment was ever used. There was a distinct rifle line that stayed on rifle for 90% of the show. You can't find that today. And I'm not advocating the use of flags only...I'm simply saying that compared to what I grew up watching, rifles are indeed rarely used today. I don't know, Steve. There was a point in the '80s where I really believed rifle lines were going to die out. Many guards were following Santa Clara's lead and using flags only, with other props, due to the belief that flags generated so much more GE because they were more visual. People forgot the texture rifles added to the mix, the high-impact intensity that even the best flag line can't duplicate because it's a softer--for lack of a better word--piece of equipment. (When I say "softer," I mean that the visual impact is softer; it oesn't have quite the same edge as that provided by a good rifle line.) Fortunately, thanks I think in great part to winter guard, and also the all-male corps and a few other corps like Spirit, rifle didn't die out completely. It came back . . . though it was generally used less than it had been in the days when you had a rifle line for an entire, or nearly an entire, show. Will it die out completely? I sure hope not. It would be a huge loss for color guard. One of the very elements that makes color guard distinct from other visual arts would vanish. Which, sadly enough, is kinda what's happening to the rest of the activity. . . .

I agree with what you're saying, Steve. Especially about the power of a good rifle line. There's just nothing else like it. And also with your befuddlement over the use of sabres on the field. You're right, they're not very visual. And yet they seem to be growing in popularity. Go figure. If rifles are ever phased out completely, then one of the last things which drew me to drum corps, in the first place, will be gone. And I can say without any doubt that at that point, I probably won't feel like watching drum corps anymore.

I like your list . . . especially 1980 27th Lancers. One of the best I've ever seen. I'd add 1979 Guardsmen. Phantom should be in there, but I can't pinpoint a specific year. Madison had an amazing rifle line from 1978 through 1980. Other years, too . . . but those three stand out in my mind. Cavaliers, as a corps, has had its ups and downs over the nearly three decades I've been watching them, but their rifle line is consistently good year after year. Not everyone will agree with this, but I also really enjoyed Blue Devils' rifle line from 1978 through 1980.