[If the DCI organization went away???]

8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

Indeed but let’s be honest independent world runs the show when you look at representation at the may meetings 

Very true , but it's also well known among World class where the bread and butter is. Many from that class also rely on those scholastic groups .

I remember a time ,and keep in mind, with many of the same in charge when they literallywere  selling tickets to the lower classes  to finals with 100% obstruction. Not in the way of seeing a bit BUT 100%  so nothing could be seen and for ( if I remember correctly ), for like 10 bucks. I personally went to the office at the arena and spoke to the big guns so to speak and said these kids can''t see a thing ,nothing, and how wrong it was, well I was told at least they were in the arena and if they didn't like it there was several exits. That's an answer? Of course I was furious and keep in mind it didn't affect at the time kids I was teaching but #### if you're gonna let them in with not enough space at least let them in free or maybe  a minimal.

Thankfully, at least the outward support for the lower teams has changed and I think many realized that their salaries   and positions depend on ALL, especially, scholastic groups.. There's so many of them..lol.

WC will always have the loudest voice BUT I guess when you've been around since dirt and can remember a time when A class didn't even have a voice it's nice to see how the power in numbers and $$$$$$$ can make an impact or at very least demand respect, as they should.

DCI can learn! HMMMM being that DCI IS THE CORPS maybe it's just some people need to  be willing to learn😉

 

 

[If the DCI organization went away???]

9 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

If WGI didn’t have the scholastic groups, they’d be in not nearly as good condition 

and the Scholastic units from A to world learned how to leverage their importance years ago. THEY are the bread and butter of WGI

[If the DCI organization went away???]

Just now, Terri Schehr said:

I’m not in the loop anymore but I have met a few young corps directors who are outstanding leaders and run a tight ship.   I’m sure there are the bend knee types in the younger group, too.  

AS there have been older ones who were or have been great leaders. Just saying we will always have issues young or old. As far as recent issues , I can tell you 1st hand there are creepy dirt bags all over, running things, teaching and yes marching . Sad but true, I think it just takes eyes wide open and hopefully trustworthy management. Yes it can be tricky

[If the DCI organization went away???]

27 minutes ago, Terri Schehr said:

I think much younger people than us need to take the reins.  This toxic old boys club in power has got to go.  Retire already. 

 Would be different ?, not so sure. Many of the issues in the past runs the age range. Just recently it was about member to member. I agree at times the old boys club can be obstruction to many things others would like to see OR it's a protection club of their own self interest BUT I have also seen new people just take on the same role, No different except for the faces 

[If the DCI organization went away???]

45 minutes ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Absolutely questionable things BITD.  But my point is that a strong leader takes care of a problem immediately & nips it in the bud, rather than letting it fester & come out 7-months later on Reddit, Facebook, & DCP. 

And perhaps this is happening at some Corps, & that is why we don't hear about troubles in their organizations.   

But it seems that the collective consciousness of DCP suggests that there is more abuse going on out there that is being swept under the rug so to speak.  Not every abused member is willing to go public & has parents willing to retain a law firm (as happened w/ SoA). 

Heck, there are standing allegations on Reddit concerning Raiders, Battalion, & the new SCV Director.  And neither HQ DCI, nor the Corps involved, have said anything. 

And, unfortunately, that speaks volumes.  This is why some on this thread are suggesting the replacement or reorganization of DCI with an organization that will actively discipline the individual Corps if the Corps won't do it themselves.

No one here wants Drum Corps to go away.  But, there are only a limited number of times member abuse scandals can happen for the activity to survive.  And some of that number have been used up.

Im sure there is more than we hear or see BUT , I also think the court of public opinion is quite something different. AS a director of many programs in the past winter fall and summer I can tell you my reasoning on how these things get out of control BUT ( as in the past )won't say much beacuse in many cases people want their cake and eat it too and want freedom to do whatever without responsibility because so many think "they have the right" There has to be strong leaders who rule with an iron fist with no exception, especially in many of these cases. 

I will say 1 thing, I do believe people do have the right to do what they want but as a director I also have the choice to take someone in or keep them or not, staff or member. , can ya tell I was raised under some of those icons you mentioned..lol......Sorry it works.....lol.

[If the DCI organization went away???]

Just now, IllianaLancerContra said:

I wonder how the SoA 2021 situation(s) would have been handled had Jones or Warren been in charge of the Corps.  I know former members of Cavaliers who shuddered if Don Warren saw them causing trouble & said 'Misbehaving member, come over here, we need to have a little talk...' (they still tell these stories 40 years later).

I'm sure very strong and with an iron fist, 1st good directors, even today SHOULD KNOW everything that is going on, Thats their job. With that said, let's not kid ourselves , there was alot of questionable things even BITD, We can't judge yesterday by today's standards for sure BUT I believe those leaders were strong, demanding, took no bull for sure.

[If the DCI organization went away???]

2 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

In 1970-72 there were leaders in the activity such as George Bonfiglio, Don Warren, & esp Jim Jones (to name a few) who were willing to lay it all on the line; say 'The current situation just isn't working for us'; & then actually do something about it.  I do not see leaders like that in the activity today.

You're right, a different world has alot to do with it, different responsibilities, different rules ( as we see ) different members, even different reasons for why a member joins the activity. Knowing the people you mentioned and a few other icons personally I would like to think those people would have evolved and did what was necessary to survive, just as they did BITD. Actually,  I'm very sure they would have. They were a unique bunch for sure, powerful leaders

[If the DCI organization went away???]

15 minutes ago, greg_orangecounty said:

 

Fast forward to 1:45.  Archaic by today's standards, but at the time..............(that was a Stanley Knaub.  Best 16 counts in Color Guard for that era).  

OMG...seeing that the 1st time made me put down my horn for good...lol...Miss him, and many others. My sibling worked with him back in the 70s . Oh the stories..lol

But you see, this is exactly what I mean. Archaic? compared to today? Maybe BUT how many times, including in WGI and DCI , thousands of band programs have we seen variations of this exact thing. Change the costuming, change the shape, alter it a bit......it's there, to this day...Thank You !

[If the DCI organization went away???]

2 minutes ago, greg_orangecounty said:

I think a lot of people weren't around to know why DCI was created in the first place, or they were and forgot.  

You could be right. Maybe these are some of the things which should be re- taught on the 50th anniversary. 

Your own corps was a huge influence and I believe to this very day in many ways from people to courage to make heads spin back then.. and you did..lol

[If the DCI organization went away???]

34 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

Oh, my.  I just cringed when I saw this post, figuring it would be eaten alive before the next mealtime.

And then I saw the response... 

First - there were hundreds of concurrently competing corps.  If you want to count non-competitive corps, then you are talking thousands.

Second - yes, most of them were sponsored by pre-existing organizations.  American Legion.  VFW.  Churches.  Schools.  Boy Scouts.  Girl Scouts.  Elks.  Eagles.  Moose.  Amvets.  Shriners.  Lions Club.  Fire departments.  Polish Legion of American Veterans.  Native Sons/Daughters of the Golden West.  More than I can list here.

Third - speaking of "on life support", if not for a recent $4.7 million government grant to DCI and other substantial grants to individual corps, we would not be having this conversation.  But modern corps already relied upon charitable giving for a vital portion of their funding prior to the pandemic.  Drum corps has always been "on life support".  The difference is that back in the day, drum corps was sufficiently cost-conscious so that civic organizations already "on life support" themselves could still afford to sponsor a corps.

I thought your post was going to explain why the "archaic" system did not work... 

 The corps felt it didn't work and wanted another direction. I'm not going to get into the old and tired discussion on the BITD verses today. It's simply a different world, the good or bad of that. I myself was a member BITD and have taught or been involved in one way or another to the present. Even the member of today is not even close to the member from the 70s or 60s. 

With that said, corps recognized back then being under the thumb of the AL or VFW ruling was archaic  ,with the world changing back then the direction corps believed it was time to also move forward,. Budget wise many corps didn't have much to run on and there were plenty of good hearted directors who mortgaged their homes, took out personal loans, I knew many personally. Fiscally smart ? well I'm not so sure about that, how many corps went belly up? 

Don't mis understand me, drum corps of the past needs to be respected,100% because the reason there is even anything today is because of the past. remember ( the good or bad of it ) we are what we are today because of those who moved us forward, decade after decade, from the beginning. Like that or not , agree or not it's many from the past who took the activity to the direction it is.. Now I suppose one could debate if that was good or not.

I believe if not for smart, aggressive, visionaries from BITD there wouldn't even be an activity today. I was lucky  that several were mentor's   and   I was privileged   to have worked under many of them.

[If the DCI organization went away???]

3 hours ago, Keith Hall said:

That Brian Flores suit will probably fade away.

 

The "Archaic" system must have worked because we had hundred plus more corps in North America back then.

Actually it didn't BUT if you want to compare the hundreds of corps, many non-competitive , most sponsored by groups who either  ( as another poster said ) on life support or not around anymore or able to support themselves let alone the drum corps activity then one would have to compare the world of 50 years ago to today on ALL fronts. Can't be done

All that aside, Drum Corps decided (the good or bad of it ) what was archaic for them and did so as corps will do the same today. Agree with it or not The corps agreed the system was archaic before 1972  , 50 years ago.

IF

[If the DCI organization went away???]

1 hour ago, Keith Hall said:

My opinion ...... Whatever the organization is, they should take total control! Don't let designers and directors decide what is judged. Think about selling to the fans as well as bring in new fans. ENTERTAINMENT!!!! The organization should have final say on what staff members are being hired by each corps, thorough background in vestigation on ALL staff members and volunteers for ALL corps. That's just some ideas

That would be going back to the archaic form before DCI. The very reason corps wanted out at the time. As far as entertainment, that would be just as subjective as anything else and is. Now the background checks can be done by the DCI office but corps should be compelled to do this and agreed on by all. It's a good start although many offenders do skirt by the system 1 way or another, so there will always be issues time to time just like any group activity.

Remember " They " as in DCI, are the corps

[If the DCI organization went away???]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

be like a former organization in the east...rebrand, maybe new location, and skip debts

Happens all the time😉

[If the DCI organization went away???]

2 minutes ago, fsthnds said:

The corps could then form the IMBA (Independent Marching Band Association)

or the BBA   Broadway Band Association...lol

You know what you started now...lol;😁

[If the DCI organization went away???]

15 minutes ago, JimF-LowBari said:

…. How would it affect the individual corps?

For you Marvel comics fans, gonna play “What If?”

What If? DCI got clobbered with a major lawsuit that zeroed out the books. Or What If? The board decided to disband the organization. 
 

How would it affect the individual corps in both WC and OC? IOW time for the alternate history

(getting popcorn)

If Drum Corps would continue at all it would just re- org. Gone are the days of the local support groups, So before any one says go back to whatever, IMO that would never happen . Corps formed DCI to decide their own path and IF it were to continue would do the same.

[DCI’s 50th Anniversary]

10 hours ago, ironlips said:

"... there is zero creativity when it comes to celebrations and hosting milestones. "

If so, that's a big tick.

There are several very creative folks on this thread. If any of them were in charge of planning for the 50th I'm certain fascinating suggestions would be offered.

Suppose it were up to you. Thoughts?

I think what the poster above says would be great BUT I believe it could possibly  have to much focus on the past and not inclusive of the present and future. 

My opinion would be : Do all said above BUT include current members with an Olympic type beginning to championship week with opening ceremonies, 50th T shirts in corps colors, entering LOS corps by corps, entertainment. Make current members feel like they are part of something way bigger than their own corps or even them selves. That they are part of a long history and how they, are now part of that history.

A closing ceremony for all

[DCI’s 50th Anniversary]

9 minutes ago, greg_orangecounty said:

Thank you for faithfully contributing to the activity all these years!  👍

Thank You🙂

Your corps DID influence an abundance of creativity, change to this day people who one way or another set an example for many aspects of the activity. AS I said in another post, we do have to look back and respect the past for who and what it was because all great things evolved from it. Without it and those from BITD there would be nothing today.

[DCI’s 50th Anniversary]

1 hour ago, greg_orangecounty said:

I do.  All those mistakes you mentioned were also eligible for a .1 penalty.  I just mentioned rifles cuz ours never dropped.  It wasn't allowed  🙂

By the way, "bad judges" today don't have to account for their decisions either.  It was subjective then as it is now.  Just a different type. 

I've judged as well as taught under both times and I do believe there is much more accountability now. Gone is the mentality of " I call it as I see it and case closed " Now are all battles won? no of course not but criteria alone does , or at least is supposed to keep those who judge in line within those guidelines of criteria. Does it always work? naw , never  does. And yes subjectivity is present now as it was then but hopefully most ( we hope) at least stay within criteria.

Watching your old rile line was a treat for sure and for me was a good part of the reason I went from being in a hornline from a very young age to decades of being in the visual and guard part of the activity. That and having George Z, Bobby Hoffman, Pete Emmons and a few others as mentors.

 

[DCI’s 50th Anniversary]

45 minutes ago, Tim K said:

The famous dropped rifle is used as an example due to the dropped rifle in the runner up’s performance in 1978 that caused a penalty and a tic which according to many cost the title. I would have to say I agreed, but I watched finals from the comfort of the living room thanks to WGBH, Channel 2, Boston so my view was limited.  

To get back to the 50th anniversary and recalling the early PBS broadcasts, I would love to hear the discussions between Peter Emmons and Gene Rayburn and his lovely wife Helen who cohosted the show. I recall they were a bit off the wall with Emmons not being amused, but I’d love to hear it again. No matter how crazy, Rayburn was a major television personality at the time. I can recall hearing he did it as a favor (though I’m sure it was a paid favor) for the President of WGBH in Boston who knew Rayburn. Both were members of the ultra exclusive Oyster Harbors Yacht Club in Osterville on Cape Cod. A friend of mine who caddied at Oyster Harbors claimed the old money WASPS/Mayflower descendants were embarrassed a game show host was a member of Oyster Harbors but also wanted pictures taken with him so they could say the hobnobbed with celebrities.

A penalty was nothing more than just another mistake. Avoidable? Yes just like any mistake. BUT thats was also the mindset of the day or times I think. AS I was as guilty of that thinking also back then. I would like to think over 50 years of DCI and before we learned alot, explored alot, grown alot and not forget that what comes before us contributes to who we are now..Now ,one can also say the good and bad of that...lol

 

[DCI’s 50th Anniversary]

20 minutes ago, greg_orangecounty said:

1 dropped rifle could be the difference between winning and losing a show.  

HMMM I remember thinking and even saying the same BITD  BUT really thinking about that...how dumb was that. If a show was lost why would it have been a dropped rifle causing that  and not a bad interval, a dropped stick, a soloist cracking etc etc or even a bad judge who didn't have to account for their decision .....I guess you get my point...lol

[Open letter to ALL CORPS DIRECTORS]

3 hours ago, Terri Schehr said:

I don’t believe for one hot minute that they didn’t know.  Everyone acting so shocked and clutching their pearls. Just like people acting like they didn’t know what was going on in Allentown.  Yeah.  Sure.  Right.  

Thank You, 100%...Including the sanctimonious who now being praised at other places who spent decades there and not to leave out some of the so called " whistle Blowers " who were all on board for years until they were insulted when no longer needed or wanted or outlived their usefulness to ...well you know the rest. Selective morality I think

[Cadets 2022 Discussions]

8 hours ago, Bob984 said:

I still find the cost staggering and it saddens me that many kids get "priced out".....Back in the 70's, I struggled as a college kid to do corps, and it took me 10 years to pay back college loans.....if my life was fast forwarded to today, there is zero chance I would be able to afford to go college and also march corps.  Zero.    Every aspect of the activity is expensive these days........I still wonder if a corps need $80,000 of props on the field (and if they make that much difference) , but that's just my opinion....I kidded a friend recently....when DCI was in Orlando years ago, there was a parade at Epcot, and the corps members were given free time in the park......I was behind some of them at a food venue, and they were buying ALOT of food (overpriced park food at that), and all pulled out credit cards to pay the tab without any concern at all over cost.....They were also wearing sneakers that cost more than all of the clothes that I would have brought on tour....I laughed, as I remembered the last year that I finished tour, and I was digging for change in the bottom of my suitcase to get enough to buy a soda......

Different world for sure from back in the day..In all aspects.. The good and BAD of it

[Cadets 2022 Discussions]

1 hour ago, Bob984 said:

It's a bit sad that the dedication has shifted to the individual (self) and not to the group/organization.  There are kids who march in multiple corps during their youth; some as many as 3 or 4 corps.  I guess it's for "varied experiences"; I do understand if a kid goes to a corps, marches a season, is unhappy there, and decides to make a change.    However, one very common thing is that a kid will march in an open or world class corps (perhaps a non-finalist, but in some cases, even a finalist), and will then jump ship at the end of that season to join a top 6 corps. Also, there are more individuals than ever who only do one season due to costs, and the percentage of kids who do three or more seasons (which was common back in the day) has dwindled big time.  It would be interesting to see if kids would choose to march more seasons if the cost to march was suddenly cut in half or more, but I don't expect that to happen with the current model.

Although I also hate how expensive the activity has become, it's not just the model. Winter programs with little travel compared to summer is very expensive, especially independent groups. Gone are the days of free or cheap rehearsal sites ( if you can get them )  church or community support ...etc etc

[Cadets 2022 Discussions]

2 hours ago, Bob984 said:

It depends on how you rate a "really bad year".  I think the term "embarassing show" is particularly harsh.  You mention about going to BD.  Yes, they always have a high talent level, and that propels them competitively every year.  However, they have won at times with shows that impressed the judging community more than the audience, with other shows from competitors doing better in that regard.    To this day, the Cadets are 2nd only to BD in terms of titles.  You mention 2015-2016.  Although the 2015 Cadet corps lost their mid-season lead, they are still the only corps in DCI history to win both high brass and high percussion in a championship round (semifinals) and not win the show, never mind the 4th that they came in, and they took high brass in finals as well.   That was one fine show musically, and hardly an embarrassment.  They did fall off a bit after that year, due to various reasons.   When Jay Bocook left the Cadets, there was a noticeable drop in the quality of brass arrangements and brass performance.  Throw in the troubles of 2018, and they battled through things that would have forced lesser corps to fold or have at least a year of inactivity.  But they hung in, and not only went out, but were solidly in finals.   Now, Bocook is back, the brass staff is strong, other captions are strong, and last year's corps was significantly better than the prior two seasons, and were very well received.    The kids who go to the corps, like most corps, learn to work hard and are given a positive experience.   That hasn't changed.  Yes, many kids flock to BD to get a ring....I do wonder if they consider it a failure if they pick the wrong year and do not get one.....if "consistency in member experience" only equates to winning, does that mean all corps other than BD fail?

 

Funny how one corps " BAD" season would be another's " HUGE" success....lol

[Bonfiglio/27th dispute]

3 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

you know you dont have to hold back on my account dude

Never