GUARDLING
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Posts posted by GUARDLING
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1 hour ago, Ashontheinternet said:
quite the opposite. i bought the audition packet for Bloo the day it was available, worked on it for a long time, but ultimately j had to kind of forfeit the Bloo audition, because of the travel costs. virtual auditions would have been fine, but i cannot afford to travel cross country for callbacks and such, never mind full tuition. Btal last year was much cheaper than it is this year, so naively i expected it to be similar tuition cost this year. boy was i wrong. we are looking into options to potentially bargain with Btal, looking into scholarship options and such, however this extends beyond me. i have several friends who had to cut short their own drum corps experience because of costs. i may be able to get a lowered tuition if they see the potential in me as a performer, but they cant do that for everyone in my shoes. it is very unfortunate.
Best of luck to you. Better to know the harsh reality in any situation. I've done many auditions and talked to literally hundreds of people and sometimes lead with the realities. IMO it's best to know up front than lead people on or make promises that can't be kept.
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4 minutes ago, MikeN said:
While the relative cost for services may make DCI a value, doesn't matter if you can't afford the absolute cost.
Mike
That is so true and then like we all do , choices have to be made. Doing any part of the activity today is certainly something not to be taken lightly. The other side of this also is, many programs, winter and summer have gone under because when some need recruitment they take anyone promising to pay , then don't. Another reality which programs learned the hard way.
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12 hours ago, Ashontheinternet said:
Look, it's a loaded title, but this is a genuine question.
This is the second year in a row that i have been forced to quit my DCI journey because of one simple thing: it is completely unaffordable for most common people. last year I auditioned for The Battalion, had to quit after the first audition camp after hearing tuition prices. this year it was even worse. I attempted a Bloo audition, forced to quit because of travel cost. Tried with Btal again, come to find tuition is around 4 grand. Forced to quit.
So this is my genuine question; How on earth does this activity expect to continue existing when year after year it becomes increasingly unaffordable for willing marchers. These costs are unsustainable and this is not a new issue, it has been around for years.
The activity for sure has become difficult for an average person to shell out so much BUT where can one get instruction for several months, housing, transportation, food etc for the price. You can't. Now I know it doesn't make it easier to know that and that some activities can be as bad if not worse. The best I can say is work, find creative ways to get sponsors, work, save in advance, work, plan ahead, work, look for corps with a scholarship program, did I mention work? If you auditioned for Battalion then went over to Bloo, did you think it would be less? No. Every year the cost of running a drum corps or even a winter program just gets higher and higher unfortunately. That is the reality of the activity today. The good or bad of that. Good Luck to you
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19 minutes ago, Boss Anova said:
It is DCI itself that is attempting to regroup and rebrand itself due to the loss of long time sponsors , school facilities , and access to youth groups , etc and the like due to having highly dubious and “ controversial “ people of low character involved in DCI Drum Corps . We are not in a position to sit in any high and mighty position of looking at donors , when the bigger issue is cleaning up our own house from the mess created by others we had running things for decades .
it was a question...thats all.
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1 minute ago, scheherazadesghost said:
Who has their undies in a bunch? Gross. Y'all are the ones that keep bringing up specifics. Also, times are different now, and in many ways: thank goodness.
What about any corps and their potential or past fast food funders? Forget CFA for a moment please for a thought experiment. Would anyone recommend eating fast food to support the rigor of a drum corps summer? Probs not. But it's it potentially good money that may be sorely needed? Probably.
For the umpteenth time it's not about canceling or turning away funders outright, especially when finances are tight. It's about mitigating risk over time and slowly phasing out funders that are less aligned.
Ahhhh WEll a question can also be IF a sponsor knew of the diversity within an organization would " THEY" donate. I have seen that in several states, especially lately.
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10 minutes ago, fsthnds said:
What about the Winter Guards and Indoor Percussion who may be getting a free or reduced cost practice site? Are they to refuse that if it is from someone (ex. catholic church) does not agree with ALL their members lifestyles?
Guards pay a fortune. I have paid a fortune, especially when you think about money coming in. That's " IF " members pay as they should" Over the years winter programs have had the same issues some drum corps have had.
Anyone getting free today, even reduced I bow down to you...lol BUT I do see the point you are making.
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1 hour ago, greg_orangecounty said:
Ahhhhh. Those were the days when hearing gunshots was a good thing! I remember being able to relax a little after hearing the shots and seeing the field judge raise their clipboards above their heads. (I might be making that last part up...? I think that happened).
It did happen..lol
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1 hour ago, IllianaLancerContra said:
Or Drum Corps buttons, many from dead Drum Corps. In fact, most Corps are dead & in the past. The sad truth is that many of them died while DCI was the premiere sanctioning body.
It could have all gone away.
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51 minutes ago, garfield said:
Still the funniest poster to ever grace the Planet.
WOW! welcome back, been sometime. Hope you are well and Happy New Year
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All it shows is that the guy collects old drum corps buttons...Thats it!
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2 hours ago, Boss Anova said:
huh ? It happens ALL the time though. Every year. All the way back to the pre DCI years too.
in his memoirs, Don Warren, Founder and Corps Director, writes in his book " Building The Green Machine " of his recruiting staff for his Cavaliers at the VFW Prelims in the 60's. He also writes about approaching a baritone soloist and Father in the Miami Vanguard during1960 season to come march the Cavaliers and be their soloist... which he accepted. Nothing unusual about this either. Lots of Corps do this.... both then and now.
Bill Cook ( and others ) were talking to staffers of Corps to come to his start up Star of Indiana in the 1983 DCI summer season.
I can easily think of dozens of examples of staffers and marchers being approached by other Corps staff and/ or Mgt. during the season to come march their corps. All... the.... time. Every season.
In the " real world ", the business world, recruiters would contact me and others all the time... sometimes right at my desk's co phone ( lol )... recruiting me and others to leave my employer and go to work for them instead. Is it " shady " ? I dont know. Its nice to be wanted and valued, I know that.
Great then people shouldn't be clutching their pearls over Cadets. Right?
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19 hours ago, 2000Cadet said:
Please. YOU should know better than anyone that would not have made any difference whatsoever, ESPECIALLY on this forum. I think one of the things people seem to have lost is the possibility that had they NOT reached out to SCV as early as possible, then spots would have possibly been filled. Then they wouldn't have ANY opportunity to march Cadets.
The activity is small. If it weren't cadets reaching out it would have been someone else for sure. How about some in the top who in the past reached out to staff as well as staff to members.DURING THE SEASON...hmmmm
Talk about shady
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11 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:
Totes, and thank you. I guess this just calls for differentiation...
If you're teaching to the show, wouldn't that make you an entertainment company/industry? Wouldn't it make more sense to free yourselves from the trappings of "education" and nonprofits and just teach to the show? Education/pedagogy can be a secondary benefit, no problem. The show must go on mentality.
If you're teaching to the members, you must be willing to sacrifice the product for the educational process. (Ideally you don't have to sacrifice either because both are in synergy.) But when push comes to shove, the importance of the lesson and process overshadows the product when your mission is based in education.
Colorguards, winterguards and drum corps have never really settled which they want to be. Guess I've always naively hoped and assumed they were the latter.
Thanks for restoring some of my faith, as always.
well thank you. I'm not sure I've actually done anything other than my perspective which of course could and like anything challenged in the past. At least for me, wanting a great product, achieving high, being the best doesn't have to be exclusive. Now I am not saying there aren't others who do and feel just like you said. I am also not saying that there haven't been students time to time that moved on from me because they wanted that quick satisfaction without the possible weight of pulling someone maybe with a little less talent up to success. For me, at times, looked at the so-called talent God's who I just pushed out of a final's and watched the members no one would want, with a medal on their neck, while the others who smugly dismissed them has given be great satisfaction.
AS far as the product, as I said I don't think (others might debate) it has to be exclusive one way or another. A good teacher or designer lets their students shine, which makes their product shine. At least for me THAT"S when product as well as student looks, feels, and projects and even commands success. JMO
I do get when you say, just be an entertainment co. I know there were some in the past who wanted exactly that. While we are still competitive activity, teaching and learning is important and that goes for staff also. The staff person who can't learn from others anymore is of no use to any staff IMO
SCV 2023 announcement may have nothing to do with this but with your experience there maybe it does.
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10 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:
The educational experience provided to colorguard members is rarely the same caliber as what's provided to drummers, pit and horn players. It can't be due to the insular nature of the colorguard/winterguard world. There are very few places a top-notch colorguard performer can take those skills and make a living. Without serious career succession planning and guidance, colorguard can be a dead end, total-frills experience with little substance that can actually feed a person's career. Has the colorguard world gotten any better at soft skills, for example?
Most colorguard folks only learn shows, and we very rarely get the luxury of multiple pre-season camps to cover anything but what's needed for the show. Too busy doing what? Learning another show for winterguard. I didn't learn anything from corps that bettered me, colorguard-wise. In fact, their teaching left me with serious adverse effects to my life. Diamante is a horrific parallel that shouldn't be ignored. I wasn't taught how to spin sabre. I was told doing so would be better for the show... so I learned it on my own and struggled through a season without actually being taught how to improve. I don't get the sense that the colorguard world has evolved past this broad approach.
The educational benefits of being with the corps were different, and numerous for me. But they weren't related to anything colorguard directly that I could take with me when I was done. So the teach to the show vs teach to the kids dichotomy gets complex for non-musician members of corps. Teach to the show... but to the benefit, ultimately, of whom? Or teach to the kids... perhaps overall achievement is lower, but the skills learned within the collaborative process can be used across industries. What's more important for a youth educational experience to provide? Competition be ######. I still think this is a false dichotomy if you have the right educators in place.
I welcome @GUARDLING or others to put me in check if I'm out of touch.
Well, there's a lot to unpack there. I think some is accurate and I think some of what you say is based possibly on your experience (which can be valid) only you can answer that.
A lot of what you say is also based on which class (at least in WGI) you speak of. The higher the class the more it is about teaching the show, as it should be. If a student in WC needs to be taught, then Maybe they don't belong in WC. If a staff person presents something that a student does not come in doing (as I think you said) the is the staff's responsibility to TEACH that person, not hang them out on a limb alone. This is at least my way of approaching a student.
AS far as a teaching career. There have been many who have made a good living if they have the talent to diversify throughout the activity. You're right, a music major (drum or brass people certainly have more opportunities available to them than guard people but at least for me I have and do have many students throughout DCI and WGI teaching, successful and making some pretty good money. Career? maybe, maybe not time will show that. The odds? probably slim. I have found over the years the ones who last in the activity have been the ones who watch and listen and NEVER think they know it all and continue to grow. One needs to be open year after year and willing to have an open mind. I also have found those who do the opposite fade away or classically say I have had enough and left the activity. Now that may be valid BUT I will also tell you in many cases I have seen over the past decades some weren't done with the activity; the activity was done with them. Now of course there are also some who the activity should have been done with them..lol
Now what's important IMO to or for a student, only one could decide for themselves, what's important to them, what philosophy, what mission statement, what's important to a given group, and much more. One needs to do their own homework and decide what's best for them. Groups can be different from each other just like the potential members themselves.
All Just my opinion and personal experience
Someone's personal experience, good or bad can certainly affect all what I just said...one way or another
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19 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:
Competition dance is the epitome of non inclusivity and has serious safeguarding problems too. I have never run in those circles but have plenty of colleagues who do. I learned dance in an undergrad program you don't have to audition for, that still boasts one of the most diverse student groups in the country, and has a PhD track. (I was in band at the age when most kids do competitive dance because when I auditioned for dance programs, I never made the cut. Same for many of my colleagues.)
There are citizen-artist-educators in the non-competitive, non profit dance world who do our best to obliterate barriers to access. That's because we know that diversity of body and thought simply make the art making better. We work from the assumption that arts, including dance education, are a public good that extends the life of the American legacy that is modern dance. It's also a big part of why most of us aren't compensated appropriately and often end up burning out. But people in my circles also go on to write arts policy, influence the forefront of choreography, and teach dance pedagogy in universities.
You don't need expensive sequins to learn dance. You also don't need to have a body that meets western beauty standards. While you may not join the ABT after working with folks like me, you'll hopefully have developed a life long appreciation for the form that then grows into bodily awareness and future ticket sales for dance performances. All for much cheaper than competitive dance and significantly less of the body dysmorphia, shaming, bullying, etc.
But a similar, crucial problems exist in drum corps and non profit dance: limited cash flow, siloing, and scarcity mindsets.
I get it when looking for the best of the best or an image for a specific part etc etc and have been around long enough to know that we can all do anything we choose but that doesn't mean we are all cut out for everything we may want in our heads but with that said, me personally, I am proud of the fact I was able ( with the help of others ) to take a lot of potential members who others didn't want and made them into DCI top 5 members, WGI finalists as well as multiple medalists. There's my satisfaction 😁
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1 hour ago, craiga said:
I don't know.....while top corps no longer have to teach members how to play a concert b-flat, hold a rifle at port, or play a paradiddle correctly, I say there is still ALOT of teaching going on. I remember watching a BAC weapons sectional last June where they spent hours on finger positions on their "sixes".
And, on top of whatever new playing skills they are learning, as we all know there are some serious life lessons being learned all summer, not the least of which are teamwork and delayed gratification.
Do today's members "need" drum corps? Probably not. Is it nevertheless an amazing educational experience for them? Absolutely.
Yes, there is teaching, even at a higher level BUT it's teaching the way their staff member wants things done. Which isn't a bad thing for a top level.
Actual teaching (from scratch) happens much more at the OC level.
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1 minute ago, Mello Dude said:
I have no idea how people do it today. I love drum corps, but you can't convince me these kids/young adults (that can readily afford it) actually need drum corps. The amount of working, begging and scholarship when I marched was a lot. BTW we worked up until tour even during spring camps. The kids today get instruction but seriously do you really think at some of these levels they are getting REAL instruction on playing? Or even need it? The kids/young adults that would benefit most aren't even on the table anymore. Massaging talent isn't really teaching, taking someone from one level of playing to unheard levels is.
You make some real good points and not wrong at all. I often wonder how they do it also (some don't but that's another topic) In some cases you are also right about instruction. In many cases its instruction on the program but on WC level you're not teaching actually how to do but how to do what staff wants.
Do these kids today need drum corps? IMO the answer is NO!
these young people today have way more at their fingertips then we ever had BITD. That also becomes part of the problem, constantly trying to entice people into the activity.
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15 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:
Couldn't agree more.
Two of the cymbal alum I'm still closest to couldn't have marched with the fees charged today, and are very concerned about it. One became captain, and the other was a rook-out and rookie of the year. They were on scholarship, moved in months early, worked all their bingos and more, and lined the fields/loaded busses to meet their financial obligations.
And that's back when fees were closer to ~$1250.
There are many who go to auditions just for the experience..I've been involved in a lot of auditions and many of my own students in the past went to multiple auditions just for the experience. Then, not thinking they would make it did and then were faced with, now what do I do, lol
That 1250.00 isn't enough today to march in most winter programs anymore. Trust me ( I hate when people say trust me...lol ) 1250 for a winter program doesn't come close to enough to run a program let alone a drum corps program.
YES , the cost is crazy, there's no doubt of that BUT I have a cousin who's daughter is in competitive dance programs..OMG, the cost, Aren't you a dancer ? or involved? I thought so , I'm sure you know what I mean, the cost is so crazy
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6 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:
And Brigs funding source?
bingo
remember that hot mess? 🤐
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9 hours ago, ContraFart said:
It was a little more complicated than that with Magic. 2002 was a positive year. It was a great tour from top to bottom. 2003 was the problem year. Adding Colin to the staff and loss of Brigadiers funding was the actual beginning of the end. What they did in 2000 and 2001 with Micro Magic was smart. They even played a few corporate gigs.
Oh, I know how complicated it was.
I deleted my post because I noticed from another thread you were support staff back then and many staff deserve the respect.
It's very sad, many loved Magic, including me.
I PM ed you
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1 minute ago, billj said:
I agree that the SCV should consider the pros and cons of this option. Heck, SCV Cadets weren't that far from world class finals a few times. They could essentially pull a compressed Blue Stars plus Magic of Orlando, avoiding the costs of a full world class tour, win open class, and the make world class finals their first year back. Nothing to be ashamed of.
Let's remember the disaster Magic created to achieve what they did that year. They started the beginning of the end with members as well as staff etc etc. There was no returning as much as some good people who tried but the damage was done, and they literally became the black cloud no one would go near. Sad to say.
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41 minutes ago, Dansize said:
New update from SCV with a review of how they got here with respect to budgets and the decision path they took to get here:
I have avoided expressing my own opinion on Vanguard but after the video now is a good time.
I by no means am saying for those who have been critical that valid points have not been made BUT I will say how terribly hard it must be to put a pause on a corps, especially a corps with such a rich history. Personally, and it's only my opinion, as much as I do not want to see Vanguard stop, not even for a minute and how missed this storied drum corps IMO will be missed I, give them so much credit for doing what they are doing. How many corps have done just the opposite, take their members on tour knowing they would never make it till the end, had to beg other corps to help feed their members, did not take care of their members as they should have been, didn't make it till the end of the year, beg for money on tour, how many make promises to members and staff and never follow through. Over the years there have been many who have done exactly that. (No need to hash up who they are and the past mistakes of some still within the activity)
There may have been others who have credited SCV for this very hard decision in the thread but if not, I have been wanting to do it. Have SCV made mistakes? Probably, hindsight is always 20/20 but they could have headed out again, made promises, increase debt and end up where many others have. Doing the right thing IMO should be celebrated especially when we have seen quite the opposite over the years.
It is quite easy for some to criticize and claim to know all the answers and for those who figured out how to do this and to flourish, I congratulate all of them, we need more of you and your ideas that have worked but also have to remind some that they may have been in the opposite position for years. So many things can affect lucrative funding situations and it does take a special team to think beyond what they have today but also think about what if it dried up. I like to think SCV , or hope that is what they are doing right now.
I truly will miss SCV presence in 2023 but are hopeful a stronger SCV returns.
Best of Luck, your success is good for SCV, good for past and future members and good for the activity.
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6 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:
Concerning injuries- I follow college football (Geaux Tigers); players are same age as members of DCI Corps. Watch what happens when a player thinks that they may be injured- play or practice stop. Dead stop. The players know that when something pops or twists or whatever, everything stops. Medical/training staff come to the player & get them safely off the field for evaluation, and then game or practice resumes. I know Corps generally don’t have the same injuries (or size of medical staff) as football teams. But adapting the mindset of stopping when injured before you make it worse deserves some consideration.
Yep, its like I said...someone takes over and does what needs to be done, and a good leader knows no matter what the circumstances the buck stops with them..ahhh and the blame if they do nothing or not enough
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4 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:
I can only speak to how the injuries were handled in the case I witnessed. In that case, they were hobbling behind the rest of the guard with their equipment while on crutches. No care, they were left on their own to fumble behind everyone else in formation. There's no medical or social justification for that. I know what it feels like to be treated that way and the word humiliating comes to mind. That's in addition to the pain that comes with injury. And the potential guilt of letting the corps down. It took all my fortitude not to offer to carry my young fellow alum's equipment to warm up for them. Or their crutches. Whatever.
Injuries can be reduced and minimized via choreographic and visual responsibility choices. I had no issues with the choreographic demands of corps until the choreographers were replaced by folks with no experience dancing outside of corps/colorguard.
Agreed.
Just like I said, how something is handled, treated with respect and seriousness even if a staff person feels they need to move forward with other members, there is or should be a director,The Boss, the big kahuna needs to step in and take charge of the situation. Then responsible leaders investigate the how and why something happened and how that immediate staff person also handled it. At least that's my opinion.
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How Does the Activity Expect to Survive.
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Many for 2 straight weeks, others may actually go away a week, and that's beside auditions ( for some ) I've taught bands that leading up to band camp in Aug. had 1 night per week sectionals all summer.