wjk1946

A gentleman?

Bill, Yes I did. I just sent and e-mail two both of tour addresses. My friend has the tickets. Read the e-mail and you will be set. Wayne

It looks like we only have Thursday, quarter finals, tickets available. If anyone is interested private message me. We are asking face value. If you purchase tickets through DCI there will be a $7.75 ticketmaster surcharge. We are not asking for the surcharge, because we did not pay the surcharge. Wayne

To Bill Durst: I wrote down your phone number before you removed it. I will be in contact tomorrow. Wayne

Lots of extra between a long time friend and me. Between us we have 20 tickets for the three days. We have some left for quarters and semis.

A friend and I have tickets available for both Thursday and Friday of championship week. They are within 10 seats of the 50 in the top four rows of section 240. We are asking face value. If interested, let me know. Wayne Cavalier 1963-1967

Here is the body of a private message I recieved this morning. Once again, I have not inlcuded the name of the sender, because he has not given me permission to enter him into the rukus. (REMOVED THE DETAILS, SORRY) If even half of this is true, then I am really concerned for the young men and women in drum corps today. Also, if any of this is true, then the staff and management of Crown should be doing some real soul searching. Sincerely, well may not so sincerely, (okay lighten up, this is an attempt at humor) Wayne Karge A Cavalier

I am sorry I asked my simple question. I started by simply asking for information regarding how corps operate in today's environment. I was very naive thinking anyone would answer that question. As far as I have seen, only one person from Teal Sound has said this corps does use physical penalties in some cases. Thank you, whoever you are, for being to the point and honest. I did not plan to mention Crown, but after four pages of people challenging me and quesitoning my morales, I had to defend myself. Giving more details was necessary. I am now going one step further. My name is Wayne Karge. I marchied in the Cavaliers from 1963 - 1967. I taught the Cavaliers 1968 - 1972. Since 1963, ther have been only two years when I did not persoanally attend a championship. I did not go to DCI in 1979, nor 1980. I graduated high school in June of 1964 and in October of 1964 I started teaching a color guard and drill team from Arlington Heights, Il, which was one town over from Mount Prospect where I grew up. In 1967, this unit won the first of their many VFW national championships. That same year I won the last of my four marching championships, the VFW and AL championships. I am not going to mention the name of the docotr, because I don't have his permission to bring him into this fight. I can tell you we spent probably 20 minutes taking about his obervations and concerns in the parking lot at Murfreesboro. He is a Cavalier from 1999 - 2001. He is also a member of the medical group that volunteers time and travels with the Cavaliers. He is commited to preserving the health of corps members. You will have to trust me on this one. If you want to see my name, look at any DCI yearly program. My wife and I are one of the four asterisks listed in the Friends of DCI, meaning we are founding and continuous members. We along iwth one the other couples, also with an asterisk, donate the money to ensure the winners of I&E competitions get a medal for the effort. For years we pushed DCI to give the winners more than a jacket form S.O.M.E., because we knew jackets are outgrown and disintegrate. S.O.M.E. now only gives a patch to winners because of expense. Finally, after years I wrote a letter telling DCI to give the kids something concrete they can walk of the field wearing, and send me the bill. Our friends joined in a split the cost. In most years, you have seen the four of us on the field presenting the awards to the winners, which is one of our favorite moments of the year. Better yet, we get a lot of personal satisfaction when we see a member proudly wearing the medal since it was our idea to give it to him or her. Ask any Cavalier who has been initiated who Wayne Karge is and he can tell you. I am one of the 20, or so, names outside of former drum majors and color guard sargeants the the initiates must learn. Over the last 30 years, or so, I have personally donated close to $150,000 to DCI and other drum corps. In 1993, when DCI was in serious financial straits I was contacted in September by the marketing manager asking if i could help them out. I wrote a check for $10,000 which helped to cover the payroll for the next couple of months. When the Cavaliers made the decision to purchase Bb instruments, the founder, Don Warren, who is a life long friend, called me first for a donation. I landed up paying for almost 20% of the horn line. If you want to see what I look like, in 1998, the 50th anniversary year of the Cavaliers, the corps had a poster created showing the many uniforms of the corps's history. In the upper right corner, wearing the original green, block, and white uniform you will see me. I am the baritone player shown in the poster. In 2008 I was the head of the brass caption for the Cavalier Anniversay Corps. I was also the upper voice of the Bully baritone trio in this corps. I played that part because I wrote that part in 1966, when the Cavaliers played Bully. So, I am not hiding from view. When you challenge that I am a Cavalier, you have no idea how wrong you are. I am one of the legendary Cavaliers that incoming members must learn about, and in many cases interview. When you question my ethics and concerns, you also have no idea how wrong you are. I have put my actions and my wallet on the line many times over the years to keep drum corps alive. What is most frustrating to me the I simply asked for some information. Not only did I not receive this information, but from the start I was attacked by a bunch of people who are hiding behind the web. These same people accused me of hiding. I never hid, I am not hiding, nor will I hide, but this experience has shown me how uncooperative people can be. I came here asking for information. What I got was a fight. Now. if anybody with this history and level of success in drum corps who wants to meet me and have a reasonable discussion, you can look for me in section 240, rows 10 and 11, seats 16 - 20 next year in Indy. I will probably be in row 10 seat 18. Come to see I am real. Yes, I get to pick where I sit each year at the championships so I know my seat location for next year. I still have a concern for where drum corps is headed. Yes, as I stated, there is a need for running and P.T. for cardio purposes, but beyond that, physical punishment is just a short cut and WRONG. Yes, I meant to yell. I will share a long story about how to motivate without yelling and without physical abuse. In 1970 drum corps was a part time, weekend activity. All day rehearsals were rare, but we had one early in 1970. We started at 8:00am and went until 6:00 with some breaks including two hours for lunch. There were no cook trucks back then. In the last 45 minutes we knew everyone was fried, so we lightend up to do some easier exercises. We felt anything more would be counterproductive. Back then, the corps marched on unlined fields. You had to dress by sight and feel. Most corps marched elbow to elbow, and you dressed by the feel of the person next to you. To end the day, we decided to practice company fronts. This consisted of the entire corps. less drummers, lining up elbow to elbow and marching across the field with eyes closed. The challenge was to keep the front straight by feel. The key to this was the first step. Any hesitation, however small, started a whip effect and the front fell apart instantly. We told the corps to dress the line, mark time four counts, and step forward. On about the sixth try, because someone always balked on the first step, I turned to the other instructior and said, "Joe, this is our fault. Our instructions have been incomplete." I then turned to the guys and apologized to them. I said something along the line, "Guys this is my fault. You have been having difficulty because I have given you bad instructions. To correct this, for those of you who are unsure, forward is this direction", and I pointed in the direction they were to march. Was this cynical? Yes. Did it make them very angry? Yes. Did they get it right? Yes. I used group dynamics. I gave those men a common enemy, me. I made them so angry at me that they were going to get it right out of spite. Was that abusive? I don't think so. Was it an insult? Yes, but it was needed to make me the enemy. This is how you can motivate without abuse. When they finished I apologized to them for the the cheap shot, and they understood. Two of the most effective ways to get a group to band togehter is to get them to commit to work against a common enemy or work for a common goal. It also helps if the issue involves the survival instinct, but that can be hard to pull into the equation. The more personal commitment you can get from the members of a group to the group, the better resluts you will get from the group as a whole. The individuals will sacrifice for the good of the group. I started by asking for some information. Virtually nobody has answered my question, but I have surely been attacked for simply asking the question. I have found it necessary to defend myself because I was stupid enough to ask the question. I have had the nerve to tell you who I am, what I have done, and where you can find me in the future. This extremely negative experiance with DCP has proven to me how wise I have been, up until now, to avoid posting. One of the reasons I delayed asking the question was my fear of just this type of response. My fears were unfortuanley rewarded. I also needed to get registered to log onto the site, which took some time. Since virtually none of you have the decency to answer my original question, I guess I learned what I was afraid I would learn. Very few want to help. Most simply want to rant. I am sorry I bothered any of you. Obviously I am an old, fool who has nothing to offer to drum corps. I wanted ot learn enough to help and all I received from you is a lambasting for my concern. Okay, I give up. I hope I never hear about abuse, or future injuries, but I have a feeling this is not the last time I see or hear about a serious injury in drum corps. I feel sorry for the young man from Crown. I feel sorry for one of the drummers who left Crown because of tendonitis, possibly from being pushed too hard during the year. More importantly, I feel sorry for all of the members who believe physical and mental abuse are an acceptable part of the drum corps experience. Finally, I feel sorry for the future students of these same members who will may be abused because of their techers were taught this through drum corps. I am starting to feel a bit ashamed for what drum corps has become and that I have supported this movement.

Based upon all of the people who seem to be supporting this form of abuse, I must presumre that it is very prevalent in drum corps, and widely accepted. This saddens me. I, for one, do not believe it should ever be accepted. I had hoped to avoid mentioning and names of specific corps, but in order to explain my concern, I must. The corps where the blog was posted happended to be the Carolina Crown. The sad fact is that when I saw the young man collpase on Saturday, one of the first thoughts in my mind was that it was to be expected considering how hard the members had been pushed this season. It is a sad point that from what I had heard and what I had read, I was not surprised to see this young man's body break down. (Here comes another tirade from the know it alls because I dared mention the corps in quesion, but it does seem to be very relavent.) I am not concerned about a few pushups. I am concerned about that fact it seems to be accpetable to beat these kids into the ground to the point that there could be another Ryan incident in the future. I hated seeing him go down. I hate the fact there could be a correlation between the practice techniques of that orgnization and his injury. I would love to find out I am wrong, but I don't think I will. Many people are arguing this form of abuse is accpetable. I will never accept any actions that could lead to another broken leg due to fatigue or overuse of the body. From the way many of you are acting, it seems you think it is okay to push that hard. If you do, and you join a drum corps, I hope you have a good expereicne, more importantly, I hope you are not injured by over working your body. Errors occur. Nobody wants to make them. After four hours on the field, with no significant breaks, fatigue will cause the mind and body to wonder, leading to brain farts. The solution should never be to make the indivdual more tired. This will only lead to more brain farts, or more importantly, injuries, that could lead to more occurences like Saturday night. I don't ever want to see something like that again, but considering how many of you feel the abuse is acceptable, I must presume it is only a matter of time before we see another incident. This subject has turned into the "argument" I was trying to avoid. I had heard many stories of how hard Crown was pushing all year. Some of my sources happen to be medical doctors who attended their camps to see it first hand. They mentioned how concerned they were for the health of the members. When I read the blog, I had to believe there was some truth to the story. When I saw Ryan go down, I was furioius mainly because I was not surprised. My friends' concern was born out and a serious injury did occur. If the concern of a long time drum corps pariticipant is rediculous then I guess I am a feeble, old guy, but I started this discussion because of a real concern. I don't want there to be any more Ryans out there , but I must presume there will be more. Nobody wants to step up and admit this is out there, and nobody seems to feel it is wrong. I only hope the next occurence is not more serious. I feel very sad about what drum corps has become if this is acceptable. Rehearsals are run like prison camps with physical and mental abuse being the norm in the chase of perfection. What has our society become when this is okay? You have groups of highly motivated, highly talented young men and women who are giving up their time, and paying dearly to participate. It should not be necessary to abuse them to get them motivated. While it may take more effort to motivate in a positive manner, I can assure you the results will be better. The abuse method is a cop out because it is easy to scream and holler and it is easy to punish. Crown came out of the gates this season so strong I presumed they would go far. As the season went on, I saw a drum corps crash and burn before my very eyes. From Murfreesboro on, every performance was weaker than the last. Yes, the scores went up, but scores are driven more by the celendar than they are by actual performance. The kids were pushed harder and harder and the results were negative. It hurt to watch this from the outside, but my concern seems to be considered worthless. I am going to give up on this thread. Obviously nobody wants to be honest about what is happening. I can only presume the secrecy is because of fear of what may happen should the truth get out. God help the members of corps ten years from now if we keep moving in this direction. This was my first post on DCP and will be my last. I was trying to do something positive and it got turned competely around. What seems to amaze me is I feel many of the people responding are not, nor have aver been members of a drum corps. This is so very, very sad.

Oh, I left out I have been around drum corps for 48 seasons, so I have seen a lot. In my 10 active years, prior to DCI, I won 9 national championships, 4 marching, 4 teaching, and 1 individual. I am still a professional musician in the Chicago area, and have held my own while performing with members of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and Lyric Opera Orchestra. I am not the common, untrained fan in the stands. I want to go on record that I detest this concept. I always have and always will detest it. I have brought this up because of a blog I read by a mellophone player in one of the top corps published at the end of July regarding a rehearsal from that day. The member was explaining the corps had two basics blocks, the "good" block, and the "tick" block". If you made a mistake in the good block, you were sent to the tick block, which ran many of the same drills, but at a much higher tempo, and for a longer duration. If you then made a mistake in the tick block, you ran laps, or did pushups. The member seemed to accept this as a norm for drum corps, which really made me upset. At the end the member stated he/she could hardly stand up because they were so tired. I have made an attempt to not mention the sex of the member as to not give any clue which corps this might have been. During championship week I was talking to a group of friends mentioning this blog. One of my friends, a long time booster of a different top level corps said, "Everyone runs." He also accepted this as a norm for a different top 10 corps, which has me wondering how commonly this is done. I don't disagree with running. I believe it is necessary, especially in the pre tour camps, for cardio vascular conditioning. I only have a problem if it is continued for punishment reasons. Before I get too upset, I would like to know how common this practice is. This is why I am asking the members of the world class corps to check in and let me know. I agree, physical punishment is the action of a very poor teacher. Fatigue does not make you better, it causes mistakes. Not only physically, but it mentally wears you down, and by the end of the season, you are a "broken pony". If this is prevalent, I may try to start a movement within the DCI organization to ban this form of abuse from drum corps. I consider this abuse. If I had a child in a corps where I was paying the salaries of the staff through donations and dues, and I saw this, I would walk onto the field and take my child off of the field. In the case of the blog, when the season started going downhill for the corps in question, from every report I saw/heard, the staff worked this members harder and changed virtually nothing in the show to improve the results. This is my definition of crazy, "repeating the same acitons, and expecting different results." Maybe the staff should have been running laps until they figured out how to do their job better. I would dearly love to see this removed from drum corps, but until I know how prevalent this type of action is within the movement, I can not determine the best way to proceed. I don't want this to become an argument as to whether this is good, I simply would like a poll from the people involved as to how often this occurs. I will get off of my soap box, now. Thanks to anyone who has the "guts" to speak up and let us know what your corps is doing. I wold love to see the drum corps experience be a positive experience for every young woman and man who performs. The only way to do this is to know what is happening and take action to remove detrimental actions.

I have been around drum corps as a marching member, instructor, fan, and for one year, alumni corps member and instructor. I have beeen hearing sotries regarding how the instructional staffs of corps "motivate" the members these days. In many cases, it appears they use the threat of physical penalty for making errors, such as running laps or doing push ups. I would like to know how prevalent this practice has become. I would appreciate it if former, or current, members of the world class corps would let me know whether the corps they were/are in mandates physicla penalties during rehearsal. If yes, what types of penalties are used. Please, I only want to know how the corps have acted in the last year, or two, not what happened a long, long time ago in a galaxy far away.......... Thank you. A Cavalier