Tenoris4Jazz
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Posts posted by Tenoris4Jazz
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3 hours ago, Zeke said:
I'd never known that before today. Is that unusual to occur present day.. to go all season to be seen one time by x judge than not again till Finals week?
I'm not sure how many judges are rotated through these days. At one time a judge might have seen your show 3 or 4 times or more before finals week. I remember one year where the same percussions judges were used Friday and Saturday. Harder to get good percussion judges back then.
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He didn't just have Pulse in 1st... he had them in first by a couple of points! That looks and smells really fishy, especially since Carmenates had RCC ahead in composition by 2 points where Howarth had them BEHIND by 2 points. That would have to be one of two things: judge disliked the music or the arrangement of RCC, or REALLY loved the stuff Pulse played.
Similar thing happened to PR in '89. The percussion judge at finals had judged them one other time all year and both times gave them significantly lower scores.
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2 hours ago, OldSnareDrummer said:
I don't remember SCV ever being all that strong in Brass Execution during much of the 70s. Looking at that 73 recap, holy smoke - the 12th place Commodores beat SCV in Execution. Yes, they played a ton of memorable music and MA scores were at or near the top. Maybe they were playing books over their heads, brass people can comment on that. They were probably charts ahead of their times at any rate. Percussion of course, GE and M&M were tops or close to it. Got to remember too in 73, Madison, Argonne and even the Blue Stars were all really good brass lines.
2 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:I believe Jim Ott was Commodore’s brass instructor in 73.
And Sandra Opie handled brass for Argonne. No shame losing to both of them!
The difficulty levels of Blue Stars brass and percussion books is what kept them from challenging SCV in '73. They finished 7th in music analysis and 10th in percussion analysis. That was literally the 2.5 points separating the two.
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On 4/18/2023 at 3:37 PM, 84BDsop said:
Actually, Garfield was 9th on the field, 4th in ensemble.... overall they placed 7th in percussion...the lowest caption for a winning corps.
That's a tie actually. Kingsmen placed 7th in M&M in '72. A couple of times music analysis saved SCV from placing 7th or 8th in brass. 1973 - 8th in brass performance 1978 - 7th in brass performance The lowest any champion has placed in a single subcaption is 9th, Cadets in field percussion in '84, Kingsmen in M&M in '72, and SCV in brass in '73.
It still befuddles me that while Vanguard played the best music book, they were only the 8th best horn line and yet still won by 2.5 points.
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17 hours ago, denverjohn said:
From my viewpoint and ears sitting in the endzone stands in Dallas in 1971, I thought that the reverse happened the year earlier. (Phasing in Saber Dance?)
Something definitely happened to Blue Rock and Argonne, and 27th as well.
8/18/1971 8/19/1971 Dallas, TX Dallas, TX VFW National Prelims VFW National Finals 1 Vanguard 91.70 1 Vanguard 89.95 2 Blue Rock 91.25 2 Troopers 89.00 3 Troopers 91.10 3 27th Lancers 88.85 4 Argonne Rebels 90.75 4 Blue Rock 88.20 5 Anaheim Kingsmen 90.20 5 Anaheim Kingsmen 87.75 6 27th Lancers 90.00 6 Argonne Rebels 87.35 -
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3 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:
I saw you 3 times that summer in Washington DC shows. Last one was literally 2 miles from my house. Was neat to watch how show grew over time.
This is something that I still look back on fondly about 2015 and 2016. I paid for Flo and got to watch the shows progress from the first show to Finals. To me, that's the best aspect of what Flo could provide, and if they ever got a crew that knew how to broadcast from Day 1, it would really help sell the product.
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13 hours ago, greg_orangecounty said:
I don't see the parallel to those Trojan luminaries/USC Football and the Santa Clara Vanguard situation, but I do in the Anaheim Kingsmen.
Fight On!
Oh come on! Rampant cheating, illegal payments, purposely bypassing the rules, and before they get caught and have to pay the penalty, the person in charge bails to go somewhere else. You can't honestly sit there and tell me the two situations aren't more alike than they are dissimilar.
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31 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:
This should be close to what you are asking for... a count of how many corps competed in DCI events each year. The earlier numbers are probably too low because I only counted championships and regionals, missing other sanctioned tour shows.
1972 39 1973 54 1974 70 1975 92 1976 102 I check over at DCX and looked at the summary of repertoires for 1970. There were 86 corps with a show listed, which may or may not provide some evidence that at least 86 drum corps performed at least once that summer. (They only have 70 shows listed for 1982, so these numbers might even be short of the actual competition numbers.) Similarly, 1971 had 79, and 1972 had 150. By comparison, 2018 had 48 and last year had 41.
I think it's safe to say at the start of DCI there were approximately 4 times as many junior drum corps as there were last season.
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10 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:
sadly they leave jerry jones in place
JJ has 1) too much money to fight, 2) nothing else to do with his time, and 3) he HAS to know where the bodies are buried, or he wouldn't be getting away with the stuff he does
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13 hours ago, greg_orangecounty said:
I'm going to say YES because they have two Trojans on their Board; Amy Lipshy (President) and Lisa Gillmore (Mayor of Santa Clara). We get things done.
Like Reggie Bush and Matt Leinart and Pete Carroll? Isn't that a perfect parallel to what's happening in Santa Clara?
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1 minute ago, cixelsyd said:
So competition was a "minor component" in the past? When do you envision the switch got flipped on that?
There were years when the VFW or AL national convention was somewhere that more than a few units couldn't attend. I recall Miami and Hawaii in particular. I have also read histories on several drum corps where the sponsor was a church and the church fathers couldn't have cared less if the kids travelled around the country to compete. They marched in local parades and competed in local/regional events. Success was not measured in trophies or awards but the number of kids who DIDN'T go to jail and who DID graduate high school.
When did it flip? I'm not old enough to know for sure, but judging from historical articles and recaps, I'd say the mid 1950's to early '60's... not coincidentally when Troopers and Cavies started dominating the national championships.
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1 hour ago, 84BDsop said:
Actually, Garfield was 9th on the field, 4th in ensemble.... overall they placed 7th in percussion...the lowest caption for a winning corps.
Sam, be honest... when y'all marched off the field did you think it was over?
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8 minutes ago, ZTWright said:
There are 3 other founding corps that aren't around any longer and no corps or organization bailed them out to keep them alive. Caring is one thing, having another corps go belly up because everyone expected them to help their fellow corps out (again, when they did this to themselves) is another.
Helping a corps with a necessity on the road is one thing (also something that shouldn't have to be done, but we do have the occasional idiot running a corps). That is completely different than the corps having a multi million debt and people expecting other corps or organizations to bail them out.
Don't get me wrong... I'm not for handing them a dime. I just understand the idea of an organization with the historical significance of Vanguard closing up shop making people think "Can't something be done to prevent this?" Well, yeah, but the time for that is long gone. It's like watching what happens in nature in your back yard versus on TV. TV doesn't show you the brutal reality of the way things work for real. What's going on with VMAPA is pulling back the curtain on the reality of running a drum corps and how easily a few people can permanently mess things up, even with an organization with the historical standing of Vanguard.
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8 minutes ago, ZTWright said:
The question really wasn't towards you, but just in general. I'm not saying good riddance, because I would hate to see them disband because of their own negligence. I'm just saying they should be the ones to dig themselves out of the hole they're currently in. We've lost many great corps over the years, even in my time of following since the late 90s, and no corps nor DCI stepped up to bail them out so what makes SCV the exception here? That's basically what I'm asking.
Only thing I can say here would be that SCV was one of the reasons DCI was formed in the first place. Gail and Jim Jones were two of the loudest voices for creating an organization to allow drum corps to go beyond the limitations of VFW and American Legion rules. Kind of like the Original Six in hockey or the Bears in the NFL. It's a bad look to see one of the foundations of your world go away because nobody seemed to care.
Now that I think about it... if an owner screws up a team so badly that it's borderline not viable anymore (Dan Snyder anyone? 🙄) the other owners can force them out and make the team be sold. NP's are a different thing entirely, but the concept of "force them to give control to someone else" would very much be in play here if it were possible.
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11 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:
Give it time - it’s only mid-April.
That said - right now the DCP Drama Meter is SCV driven. Typically we only deal with one big drama at a time around here. So if & when Cadets decide to contribute, this will be somewhat uncharted territory.
I think SCV looked at all the past Cadets drama and said, "Hold my pinot grigio!"
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8 minutes ago, ZTWright said:
Why would they? Why should they? You don't see McDonalds giving a handout to Wendy's. The same comments were made when the SCV news first broke, about why other corps weren't helping them. Again, why should they? Why is it their job to help them out? Why would it have been DCIs job to help out local circuits?
Plenty of people watch the NFL or NCAAFB regular season, but the ratings go way up for the playoffs. DCI should have used the regional circuit season as the "regular season" and then made the national tour the playoffs. Watch Madison/Phantom/Cavies dominate the Midwest, but how would they do against the "Beast of the East" or the "Best of the West"? Come see the DCI playoffs!
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2 hours ago, Terri Schehr said:
I could bring up DCM again but that would be beating a dead horse. There were corps that absolutely depended on that local circuit for their survival. I know no one cares about corps like Capital Sound or Americanos.. oh wait… some of us actually did. Don’t get me started.
This all goes back to the purpose of drum and bugle corps as defined from the 1930's to the 1960's versus the DCI era. So many dc units were sponsored by local parishes or churches and VFW/American Legion posts so as to give kids something to do during the summer to keep them out of trouble. They learned about music and being part of a team. The competition was a minor component. Flip the switch on making competition and "artistic expression" the major motivators and it started eroding the basic life educational aspect of drum corps' reason to exist. It's been said many times before, but there were once 150 to 200 drum corps performing during the summer season. With the current model, you can't sustain more than 15 to 20. Pro sports (and college sports for that matter) went from paying players $25k/year to $25 million a year, but they grew revenue proportionally to cover that. DCI has increased budgets from $500k to $5 million, but the revenue never made that leap.
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2 hours ago, jwillis35 said:
This is mostly how Madison Scouts won in 1988. I believe they were top 3 across the board. I don't know what Madison's caption were for semifinals. They performed their best show in semis and had a fairly big spread in total score over everyone else so I have to believe their caption strength in semis was strong. Their Finals performance was not as strong.
Madison finished 1st in GE brass & percussion and Visual performance, 2nd in GE visual and performance brass & percussion at semis. BD took brass performance and Cavies too visual GE. Scouts had a 1.1 point lead on BD and 1.5 points on SCV.
Finals night, Madison took GE brass and visual performance, finished 2nd in GE perc & visual, but 3rd in performance brass & percussion. SCV won GE perc & visual, BD won brass performance and Cadets won percussion performance.
Madison, BD, Cavies scores all went down at Finals and SCV and Cadets went up. Vanguard went 5/4 in visual performance/GE at semis to 3/1 at finals. How do you go from 4th in visual GE to 1st in one night? Oh yeah... you make the phantom disappear as well as the entire hornline.
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8 hours ago, Kopeck said:
Forget a warm-up. Find a way to work this music into a show. 🙂
F that... play the music, dress the guard up at Mandalorians and have one person in a Grogu costume!
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6 hours ago, JimF-LowBari said:
Thought we were at the 3 year stage? 🤦♂️
It's Cali... I give them a year to follow up on anything. 🙄
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9 minutes ago, greg_orangecounty said:
No it does not.
That webpage from the CA A.G. is a summary of what "delinquency" means and the consequences. Under Title 11 Law Division 1. CA Chapter 4, Sec. 314 (3) Regulations adopted pursuant to the Supervisor of Trustee's & Fundraiser for for Charitable Purposes Act states "Grounds for Issuance of Cease & Desist Order". SCV is considered "delinquent" by the CA A.G. However, there is still a legal procedure which includes receiving a C&D from the A.G. Until they get that they are still operating within the law, which includes soliciting donations (which they're doing).
This is why I mentioned in an earlier post the state is backlogged due to COVID, which may buy them time to submit the past audits and make this all go away.
The backlog is over 2 YEARS LONG?!?!?!?! Sound like the same management team at VMAPA is running the CA DOJ...
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Just now, IllianaLancerContra said:
Could be a combination of the three; they are not mutually exclusive.
True. I should have pointed that out. Thanks for catching that.
Even Enron published their audited results. It just took some people with a lot of working knowledge of the operating model to find the fraud, and it had been covered up by at least two levels of Enron management AND Arthur Anderson.
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9 hours ago, scheherazadesghost said:
In the January Q&A with alumni, alumni association, some board members, CFO and then-CEO present... JVW stated that they do conduct yearly third-party audits, but they aren't made public.
Not being public is one thing... not submitting them to the state as a requirement of your non-profit regulatory oversight???
I said this before in another thread: I have been working for 25 years as an accountant for publicly traded companies and I have worked directly with auditors over a dozen times. If you are not submitting independently audited financial statements to the proper authorities, there are only 3 reasons: 1) you are hiding something you found 2) you are avoiding an audit because you don't want to find something 3) you are incredibly stupid and negligent.
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1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:
80 was a wild recap too
4 captions, 5 different winners! Phantom took M&M, Bridgemen and Spirit tied for drums, Devils took brass and 27th took GE. Discounting penalties, 1st through 4th was only a 0.5 point spread.
WGI Percussion....very impressed and fun..
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Okay, I just had a "someone gave me unsweetened tea" reaction to this. In the 20 plus year run that my high school had a championship marching band, the only people who ever arranged for the band were either an existing director, a current student in advanced music study, or a former student working on his college music degree trying out a new arrangement. Buying music from a catalog was either "cheating" or "wimping out." Plus, back in those days, you couldn't get anything above grade 5 or 6 from the catalogs. We were playing charts straight from DCI or hand-written that were harder than that.
I supposed you can't be a top band anymore without paying a few hundred dollars or more for someone to write music for you and then have to spend $1000 or more on to license. That money sure could go a long way to pay for other things a band would need. Did they stop teaching band directors how to arrange their own music in college?