queenanne_1536
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Posts posted by queenanne_1536
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4 hours ago, Cappybara said:
Boston had a dramatic influx of new staff that were already PROVEN at other corps and the jump from 12th to 6th wasn't just magically done, it was because the corps genuinely dramatically improved both in talent and design in the course of one offseason. There are also larger differences in talent levels from the 12-6th place corps than the 6-1st place corps. Generally, all the corps in the top 5 have the talent to win a championship, and the differences between those corps really come down to show design and execution. It's easier to make a jump from 12th to 6th than 6th to 1st
I agree with all of this, It's a lot harder to move from 6th to 4th to 3rd to 2nd to 1st than it is to move from 12th to 6th. But, I still don't buy the competitive inertia thing, because it's a 1,000 times harder to win than it is to place 4th (unless you're the Blue Devils). They just get it right practically every year.
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3 hours ago, Cappybara said:
Brucker has stated that Scouts are the only exception, though it can also be argued that performance mattered a lot more in judging than it does today. Design is much more emphasized now compared to in 88.
And Madison probably would have still won in '88 if design was more emphasized then. IMO the Cavies had the overall best design in '88, followed by Madison.
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4 hours ago, Cappybara said:
Nope, the judges would not. It takes a certain amount of competitive inertia in order for judges to place you ahead of corps like BD, SCV, bluecoats, etc. Even for Crown it took first winning a silver to get the gold. It took Bloo winning a silver before they won the gold
It will take Boston atleast winning a bronze before they win the gold
I wish this silly competitive inertia thing would go away. It has nothing to do with competitive inertia or having to place top 3 before you win. There are so many other factors at play here. There is so much that goes into winning. Everything has to go just right. It takes a long time to get there. It's a lot of trial and error. The reason new champions, throughout history, have had to place in the top 3 before they win is because its part of the natural progression. They get most things right the years they placed 3rd or 2nd, and sometimes they get it all right the next season (and win), sometimes they get it all right the next season (and still don't win because someone else is better), and sometimes it takes a few more seasons to get it all right and win.
If a corps came out (say Blue Stars) with a championship caliber design and the talent to back it up they would have a shot at winning regardless of past placement. Although this hasn't happened to a new champion, it has happened with other corps. To name a couple 1) Madison '88 - They went from 6th to 1st. In the 80s their two highest placements were 3rd in '81 and 1st in '88 (7th '86 and 6th in '87). They had no "competitive inertia" coming into '88. They won because their design was nearly perfect and the corps was responding to the judges and fans who were raving about the show, and when that happens you get better than better. Regiment went from 10th in '86 to 3rd (semis) in '87. They had no competitive inertia coming into '87. It was the same thing as Madison in '88 although it didn't take them quite as far.
Boston will win this year if they have the best design and best corps. I actually hope they do - it would prove once and for all how silly this whole competitive inertia thing is.
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10 hours ago, valjean said:
You're right but the corps was just so stinkin' good. Corps that aren't BD or Cavaliers often don't know what to do after a championship season, I was glad to see SCV did something bold, and very different from the previous year. A lot of people seem to think the group is going to majorly drop off this year, and they could be right, but I doubt the talent pool will be any worse than the last few seasons.
I agree on all fronts. Vanguard 2019 was a show I just didn't like, but it still had design elements and talent that kept it in the top 3. I disagree with the poster that said it should have been 6th at best. Perhaps I would have agreed had Crown beat them, but not Cavies or Boston.
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1 hour ago, Hook'emCavies said:
I'm with ya on that.
It's kinda like my case with Cavies. Both Cavies and Boston have greatly improved the last few years. It just wouldn't surprise me if both of these corps really turn some heads.
Cavies were tremendous in 2019. When I saw them in Stanford, I thought they had a better show than both Vanguard and Devils. That reminded true throughout the entire season when it comes to Vanguard, but Devils just layered so much greatness into their show throughout the season that the final product was really spectacular.
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3 hours ago, craiga said:
I know I have been the target of some degree of derision of late here on DCP. While I will admit to being an unapologetic supporter of BAC, never before this year have I ever even suggested that they might contend for a ring.
So, what in tarnation is going on this year? Actually, a couple things. First, the 2021 season WAS treated as a real season by Boston, with all captions improving significantly over 2019. Second, having spent a total of 16 days of their 30 days of spring training with them, I was fortunate enough to learn amazing things about the show, the design and the members.
Of course, I am not dismissing the potential of any other group. I just really am convinced that this is the most talented, most experienced, and most prepared corps ever to come out Boston, and as I have been around them more than 40 years, I think I have a baseline of knowledge. I believe they will do really well this summer, and we will soon find out. That is all.
Although you may not feel the same about me, I actually enjoy your contributions. You engage in, at least what I think, is good discussion. You're passionate - we have that in common. I would be as fiery as you if you were saying about Vanguard what I have been saying about Boston. Believe that.
I've seen a snippet of their (BAC) guard earlier (via video) and their work looks even more amazing and challenging that it ever has to me. Their guard is so impressive. I was truly in awe. Whether they've improved elsewhere, or other guards aren't even better, remains to be seen. I hope I'm wrong about them. I hope I have to come here, eat crow, and say "you were right, I was wrong" because I'm sick of the status quo at the top and would love to see a new champion (well a new silver medalist to Vanguard).
Most of today's judging comes down largely to design. In 2019, design kept Crown in 4th instead of challenging for 1st, it kept Vanguard in the top 3, it propelled Cavies to 5th, and it kept BAC down in 6th. All the top corps have tremendous talent. All six, IMO, have the talent to win, but it's all going to come down to design, as it always does, so I'm more concerned with the design than I am with the talent.
Of course, talent is important, but design is so much more important. I won DCI one of the years I marched and the following year we had a much more talented corps, but finished lower because the design was not nearly as good as the previous year. Design can take you so far, because when the fans and judges are responding well, you're scoring well, and you're beating a bunch of your rivals it just has such a tremendous positive effect across the board. Design took us so much further than talent did. That's for sure. The summer we won was so much better than the next summer - not only because we won, because it was such a fun season where morale was through the roof, we worked so hard, and we saw the results of that work. The next season, morale sucked because everyone was beating us, the show wasn't as good or as fun as the prior season, and we knew we had no shot.
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12 minutes ago, Fran Haring said:
My last two years in my local-circuit junior corps...1975-76... our horn line had its own show theme going on.
"Constantly Risking Intonation."
We sucked with a capital S those two years. 😂
That's so funny. I had a friend in the Sky Ryders in 1988 and he said during the season they were calling themselves the "Score Divers."
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Just now, LabMaster said:
Wasn’t saying you called anyone a moron. I understood what you were saying. The BD vet numbers have been brought up a few times in a Number of threads. Even by parents of current new mm’s.
I was just worried I offended you. That's all. Thank you. That's interesting. I didn't know that. It might not matter much for BD though. They have that amazing staff and surely the pick of the cream of the crop.
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12 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:
I don't know where people have been able to find these videos of 2022 corps performances. I haven't seen anyone yet. I just found a link on YT for a performance by Gold and Pacific Crest. I plan to watch at some point later today.
I don't know IF people are finding videos of 2022 corps either. I'm very hesitant to believe it. I'm not well connected to corps and staff today (I'm not even remotely connected, LOL), but I'm very well connected to a lot of people who are well connected to staff on most corps. Usually, I will get videos of the tops corps by now (with the threat of not talking about it or sharing them), but no one has anything yet this year. So, I tend not to believe people when they say they've seen many corps. At least we know no one has seen more than one or two live and that's what really matters.
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2 minutes ago, Newseditor44 said:
All of the above except Cavies. 😎
Lucky you. Even people I know with staff connections at this corps aren't getting any information or videos.
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Just now, jjeffeory said:
I'm sticking to my opinion that Bluecoats, Boston, and Cavaliers are going to shine this year at the top, and Crown, BD, and SCV follow in placements.
Gosh, that would make for a really exciting season, especially if Cavaliers and Boston were the top 2. I hope Vanguard wins, as always, but I haven't heard anything from anyone.
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5 minutes ago, Newseditor44 said:
And BTW, I’ve seen some video from Boston, They will be hanging out in the top tier this season.
So you've seen Cavies, BD, Vanguard, Bluecoats and Crown as well? That's the whole point I'm trying to make. Without seeing all these top corps live none of us have any idea where anyone is going to be.
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2 minutes ago, LabMaster said:
I’m not a moron as you so eloquently put it, but I do get a questioning vibe about BD with fewer than 30 returning BD vets. None of them in the percussion section. 130 new BD mm’s is a lot. If the vibe is they’ll be good, there’s not much question. But returning right to the top, I’m not so sure. This could be their off year. Even BD can have one. And at that, an off year could mean 3rd or 4th, which isn’t so “off”.
I wasn't calling anyone specific a moron - just being tongue in cheek.
I hadn't heard they have only 30 returning vets. Where are you getting this information from? That seems like a ridiculously low number, but if they had an older corps in 2019 it's entirely possible.
Personally, I would love it if BD finished 4th-6th. Not that I have anything against BD, but after seeing them in the top 2 every season since 2007, it would be refreshing and perhaps exciting from a competitive standpoint to see a top 3 without them.
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29 minutes ago, IllianaLancerContra said:
32 years is enough between such seasons
I agree. Sadly, we are no in an activity where "any given night" applies so far. It's very predictable nowadays. We'll know right from the get go, within 1-2 places, where every corps is going to end up.
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I still want to know what Vanguard's original plan was in 2014 before they scrapped it because of copyright.
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01. Blue Devils
02. Santa Clara Vanguard
03. Bluecoats
04. Cavaliers
05. Carolina Crown
06. Boston Crusaders
07. Blue Stars
08. Mandarins
09. Cadets
10. Blue Knights
11. Phantom Regiment
12. Crossmen
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1 minute ago, IllianaLancerContra said:
Idk who will win. But I would love to see a season where all the top-6 or so have equally good design, and it comes down to the performance on any given night.
Re-watch the 1990 season. 🙂
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5 minutes ago, craiga said:
Perhaps you will give the Boston Crusaders the opportunity to gain your approval. Enjoy your summer.
Thank you. Same to you.
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On 4/16/2022 at 7:58 AM, Tim K said:
Glad you’re back. I may not always agree with you, but your posts can spark debate!
I disagree that 2021 is irrelevant and that we need to be looking at 2019. For the young people marching this year, 2019 is ancient history and for a good number of marching members, 2022 will be their first competitive year in DCI. Most of those who marched in 2019 have probably aged out. Corps who have never had challenges filling spots are finding it a challenge this year. I know I will enjoy 2022, but I’m not expecting DCI to pick up where it left off in 2019. I’m expecting a great deal of rebuilding this year, including corps who place at the top with excellent staff.
For some corps, 2021 was a gift. There was a group of Cadets volunteers and staff on my plane in 2019. The morale was low. As we later learned staff was not paid and there were a ton of other difficulties. 2020 gave Cadets a chance to refocus and 2021 was a success story. Phantom has a difficult 2019 too. If there had been a 2020, I’m not sure either Cadets or Phantom would have been finalists. I don’t expect either to be in the top six, but they’ll certainly be 7-9. Crown was not in Indy but my understanding is that what they offered was fruitful and they have the expectation of holding on to many and I know the same can be said for BAC. I talked with lots of folks with BAC at their home shows and they claimed lots will be returning. At the airport after Indy I heard similar things, but unlike the home shows, I heard it from staff and direct volunteers, not alums and fans. Much can change over the winter months, but 2021 was significant.
I’m also a realist. Many BD and SCV vets marched with other corps in 2021. They’ll probably return to BD and SCV. I’m also expecting to hear that some corps who did not participate in 2021 May have a difficult time returning to the field. 2021 may not have been a competitive year, but we may discover it was pivotal in other ways.
I get where you're coming from. It really remains to be seen and perhaps I spoke out of turn. I have no idea what is going to happen this year. I have no idea how two years without competition will change things, if it does at all. We could see some major shifts this year in placement, but who knows.
I loved Madison, Regiment and Cadets the most last year, by a mile, so I hope all three have better seasons in 2022 than they did in 2019, but I'm not optimistic for any of them. All three had such huge design issues in 2019 and Madison just seemed so lost. Regiment made some good acquisitions, but we'll have to see what happens design wise. It could be a better season for them, and I have the most hope for them out of the three, perhaps, but I really don't know anything. It's going to be fun to see what happens for sure.
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On 4/16/2022 at 7:36 AM, craiga said:
Wow. I'm not sure why you are such a Boston hater. Perhaps there is a history there. Since I don't know you, I really can't see speculate. You are entitled to your own opinions of course, but one would have to be living in a yurt in the Alps to not be aware of BAC's growth in the last five years. And, since they committed a year ago to field a serious corps in 2021, last season was anything but irrelevant. I am truly disappointed that you don't recognize their growth, both on and off the field. One final thought...you can say what you want about them but it is widely disingenuous to suggest that the Boston Crusaders don't have a "storied history". SMH
I'm not a Boston hater. I just find it absurd that every year people hype them to death. I've seen their growth. They have a tremendous guard. However, it's going to be a hell of a lot harder from them to move from 6th to 4th than it was to move from 12th to 6th, and it's going to be even harder to climb into the top 3. They are dealing with a whole different caliber of corps now than they were dealing with from their 12th to 6th place rise.
Going into 2017, I didn't buy the hype that we were going to see a massive improvement out of BAC. I was wrong. I knew the first time I saw them in 2017 that they were going to have a shot at the top 6 because their design was so great (compared to the 7th-12th place corps. I even said to friends early season I thought they were going to beat the Cadets and was meant with the chorus of "no way!"
It all comes down to design, and so far, they have not produced a medal worthy design. Not even close. All we can base things on is what we saw in the last competitive season. Guard excluded, in 2019 Blue Devils, Bluecoats and Vanguard had a talent and design edge on BAC, Cavaliers had a design edge, and Crown had a talent edge. That bodes well for the possibility of them climbing to 4th this year, but a medal is a long shot in my opinion, and my opinion is my opinion. I might be wrong - I've been wrong often enough in life to know that's a possibility.
I have no doubt that will come some day, and it may be this year. It may be never. Last season was irrelevant - with some many corps doing different things and marching overage members and it being a non-competitive season.
I will apologize to BAC for my comment about a storied history. That was out of line. I was trying to make a competitive point and that wasn't fair. Competitive success isn't the only thing that goes into having a storied history.
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2 hours ago, Boss Anova said:
Poppycock has another good “vibe “ about the Blue Devils this season compared to the others .?Stop the presses .😃
Only a fool wouldn't have a good vibe about the Blue Devils compared to others.
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9 hours ago, craiga said:
I'm not sure why you bring up 2019 Boston as if they did not go out in 2021. For the record, the Boston Crusaders DID field a full, 185 member corps last summer (2021). And suppose I told you that the caption heads told me that it WAS, in fact Boston's most talented ensemble? The intent of this thread was to speculate on the possible placements that could happen in 2022, was it not? Oh, and by the way, the ONLY active drum corps in DCI whom Boston has never beaten is the Blue Devils, so your listing of corps whom Boston has "shown no evidence " of out performing or designing really only to pertains to one drum corps, not 6.
I bring up 2019 because that was the last competitive season. 2021 is completely irrelevant.
I remember Scott Stewart at 1989 finals saying he felt the '89 Scouts were more talented than the '88 Scouts. That may have been true, but the '88 show design was on an entirely different level than the '89 design. The '88 design took a less talented corps (compared to BD, SCV, Garfield, Cavies and possibly Regiment) to 1st place, where as a much weaker design in '89 dropped the corps to 7th place. A corps Scott Stewart himself thought was more talented than his championship corps. Having the highest talent ever doesn't mean $hit if you don't have the design to back it up.
When is the last time Boston has beaten Bluecoats? 2003. When Bluecoats weren't top 5 caliber.
When is the last time Boston has beaten Vanguard? 2005 seminfinals. When Vanguard wasn't top 5 caliber and fielded their lowest placing corps in DCI History. Boston only ever beat Vanguard during Vanguard's weakest season from 1972-2019.
When is the last time Boston has beaten Crown? Once in 2019.
Boston has never threatened a Vanguard or Bluecoats when those two corps have been at, or even near, their full powers.
So no, Boston has no track record of challenging Vanguard, Bluecoats or Crown when those three have been top 3 caliber, and they have only beaten Crown once when Crown was top 4 caliber. Nor, have they beaten Blue Devils ever (as you said). Nor, have they beaten the Cavaliers when the Cavaliers were top 4 caliber.
Of the top 6 corps form 2019, they are on the outside looking in, until they prove otherwise - in design and execution. The other top 6 corps from 2019 have storied histories with very successful track records. Boston does not.
Again, I'm not saying they won't move up this year. I'm saying is is silly and ridiculous to make assumptions based on the things you and others do - without even hearing or seeing Boston's show or their main competition. You would have thought you all would have learned your lesson in 2019, but nope!
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3 hours ago, Liahona said:
I don't even know where to start with a reply. I remember back in 2019, you trashing the design team at Boston literally at the start of that season.
That's fine if you want to continue to poo-poo on their design team and talent. I know the resolve of these folks and quite frankly it's comments like these that will make it so much sweeter when they do break in the not too distant future.
You shouldn't have started at all, honestly. I never trashed the design team. Speaking truth and pointing out their design shortcomings (as I did in 2019) isn't trashing them. I also remember many of you saying I was wrong for saying they were likely going to finish 6th. Who was right? I was.
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9 minutes ago, craiga said:
Interesting that you did not include the 2021 Boston Crusaders in your calculation, since that was their most talented drum corps in their history...in all three sections.
In any event, 2022 is the fifth year of this design team and caption head group. That fact, along with the 120+ returning vets might well make the competitive landscape interesting this summer.
How was it their most talented corps in history? What are you basing that on? How can you possibly make a statement like that? Even if it was their most talented corps in history that is meaningless relative to other corps. If 2021 were a normal, competitive season, they still could have finished 6th with their most talent corps in history.
It also matters little that the design team is in their fifth year together and they have 120+ returning vets if the design team can't deliver a top 3 design, and so far they have not done so. That is the key to success. A less talented corps can beat a more talent corps if they have the better design. It has happened many times in the past. It all starts with design, and if you start the season with a non-top 3 design, like they did in 2019, then there is no hope of medalling. Period.
In 2019 Boston (guard excepted in the statements below):
- Lost to BD, SCV and Bluecoats on both talent and design.
- Lost to Cavaliers on design.
- Lost to Crown on talent.
It is extremely hard to break into the top 3. More so today then ever in history.
I'm not saying Boston can't or won't medal. I'm just saying that it's silly to say they have a great chance or will when we've seen absolutely nothing of them in 2022 or their main competition.
2022 Season Predictions
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
I'm not surprised you would agree. Haha. The Cavies design was absolutely brilliant and that show was breathtaking. It as miraculous.