Wayne Downey's Brass Advantage: Discussion

[kalijah]

Its dissapointing to see Wayne attempting to venture into the "air speed" myth.

Widely repeated but completely erroneous concepts regarding air speed and oral size etc.

He wrote:

The shape of the tongue in the mouth cavity plays a pivotal role in creating this pressure as well as controlling the speed of the air.

The higher the arch of the back of the tongue the smaller the oral cavity becomes (the space between the tongue and the roof of the mouth.) Obviously, the smaller the space between the tongue and the roof of the mouth the more pressure will be created and the faster the air will be released over the tongue into the instrument.

Actually, any narrowing of the path of the air will result in a loss of air pressure and a reduction in air flow. Regardless of the average air speed thru that narrowing.

And an increase in speed thru a narrowing does not mean an increase in speed (or flow) everyhere else, namely, thru the embouchure. As a matter of fact, a reduction in air speed everywhere else is guaranteed.

Conversely, the lower the arch of the tongue the larger the mouth cavity becomes creating less pressure with a slower speed of air.

In fact, the larger the air supply path the more the energy and pressure of the air is preserved. Pressure of the air (and its energy) is in no way dependent on the speed alone. To believe so is an excercise in faulty understanding.

All professional brass players have learned to coordinate the motion of the lower abdominals with the motion of the tongue for complete control over their air pressure and speed.

What good players have developed is an embouchure that produces a pleasing tone and the ability to control it in a musical way. AIr pressure IS applied as appropriate to the volume you wish to play. But the source of air pressure is not only from abdominal muscles but ALL of the muscles involved in exhalation, not to mention the elasticty of the lungs that also contributes (or detracts) to air pressure.

As for air speed, it varies widely thru the system and depends in turn on flow. And flow depends on total resistance including embouchure efficiency, acoustic properties of the instrument, etc.

At this point it’s important to understand the direct relationship between the frequency of the vibration of the tissue and the speed of your air.

In fact, no relationship has been establishedand the concept is easily dismissed. It is possible to play a low C at a high volume with much "faster" air (thru the aperture)than a much softer high C.

Now, higher pitches Do require, in general, more air pressure. Perhaps that is where the confusion lies among players and teachers.

The terms "speed" and "pressure" have been confused.

The faster the speed of the air passing through the lips the faster the tissue will vibrate producing a higher pitch, conversely the slower the vibration, the lower the pitch.

Vibration has "frequency" to determine pitch. The speed of the vibrating medium can actually vary on a constant pitch depending on amplitude. But, as was noted one can use a variety of air speeds on a constant pitch, depending on volume.

You might be fascinated by the fact that the frequency of the vibration also affects the color of your tone. The faster the tissue vibrates on any given pitch the brighter your tone will be, the slower the vibration, the darker the tone will become.

Hold on there! Wayne said before that the "speed" of vibration determines pitch. Hown can the the "speed" also determine color.

The fact is that the freqency does determine pitch. Not the speed, of the air, or of anything.

As for tone "color" it is determined by the frequency content of the pulsations. Or to put it another way, the "waveshape" of the pulsations.

Here is an interesting article from ITG that is informative:

http://www.trumpetguild.org/pdf/2003journal/0306science.pdf

While I have great respect for Wayne as an arranger, I am afraid he has fallen into the propogation of some widely believed but very much erroneous, inaccurate and unnecessary "analysis" in regard to the subject.

The presentation of some of these ideas could be a real stubling block for some players. As they were for me.

Tongue arch, abdominal pressure, and the visualization of the action of creating air speed do have a place in teaching methods. But for the cause of accuracy it would be nice to see players and teachers take an interest in the real science involved. It might be of some benefit.

Edited July 26, 2007 by kalijah

[Shadow_7]

Ummm, what?

From a trumpet players perspective that methodology seems good and accurate. Granted that low brass may adopt a slight variation on it with regards to the oral cavity. Not that either is "wrong" per say. If it's what you need to hear to be able to get done what you want to get done, then so be it. I've had people tell me to do some pretty outrageous things to get me to directly or indirectly do what was needed to improve. Players methods and concepts evolve over time. Which doesn't quite make the previous method false. Just less applicable under current conditions.

Personally I buy into the air speed concept. The highest note I've ever played was when I sneezed through my mouth while playing my trombone. The response from the clarinet players sitting in front of me at the time was quite memorable. Had the ceiling been a little lower, there'd probably be a couple head sized holes in it.

[leadsop97]

once your air makes your lips vibrate, it is essentially useless. the air makes your lips vibrate, which makes your mouthpiece vibrate, and that is what creates a pitch. many people fall into the whole air thing, and many who do, have slower progress than those who focus solely on the sound. if people focus on making a good sound, they will make much more progress. you won't get much out of the "how", it's just a matter of figuring out what is right for you, and then just sticking to it. no one technique is really going to work for more than a few people which is why there are a TON of them out there, that people try, and realize don't work for them. I find this to be the one downside in drum corps as far as brass playing is concerned. instructors trying to enforce their technique on the members, which is completely counterproductive to the member's growth as a player.

[Shadow_7]

Yes, focus on the sound. As that is your primary goal. The how has a way of working itself out as long as you work towards your primary goal.

As far as the air being useless after it passes the lips. Many will disagree with that. Especially if you're a trombone player and have to deal with the compression and decompression of air while moving a slide great distances at high speed. It's why we find playing Euphonium soo much easier. If you can get used to the slide to valve translation, and that not playing in tune by default regardless of where the tuning slide is positioned thing. And then there's that sympathetic vibration thing. Your hand doesn't make a noise when you slap your mouthpiece because it's buzzing said tone.

[SF2K4]

Can I just say, not as a brass expert but as a physics major (well, engineering, but still), taking an exiting fluid in a space (say, a large tube) and then taking that same tube but narrowing one end, you do get a faster exiting of the fluid thru the hole. Think of taking your garden hose and then covering part of it with your thumb. Again, that's just for speed.

[Legalhack]

Can I just say, not as a brass expert but as a physics major (well, engineering, but still), taking an exiting fluid in a space (say, a large tube) and then taking that same tube but narrowing one end, you do get a faster exiting of the fluid thru the hole. Think of taking your garden hose and then covering part of it with your thumb. Again, that's just for speed.

Yep. Whistle arpeggios (sp) and pay attention to what the tounge is doing relative to the appeture and torso.

[leadsop97]

agree with the air speed thing. However, i normally choose not to mention it at all because most people won't get what you're talking about and it will create unecessary thinking/problems.

and, I always thought the trombone was a silly instrument :P obviously joking.

[GuyW]

The proven scientific / engineering principles of fluid mechanics (pressure, head-loss / pressure loss, velocity) properly applied work for airplanes, water systems, pumps....and oh yeah - brass horns and the human body...

[Tom D'Bomb]

Its dissapointing to see Wayne attempting to venture into the "air speed" myth.

Widely repeated but completely erroneous concepts regarding air speed and oral size etc.

He wrote:

Actually, any narrowing of the path of the air will result in a loss of air pressure and a reduction in air flow. Regardless of the average air speed thru that narrowing.

And an increase in speed thru a narrowing does not mean an increase in speed (or flow) everyhere else, namely, thru the embouchure. As a matter of fact, a reduction in air speed everywhere else is guaranteed.

In fact, the larger the air supply path the more the energy and pressure of the air is preserved. Pressure of the air (and its energy) is in no way dependent on the speed alone. To believe so is an excercise in faulty understanding.

What good players have developed is an embouchure that produces a pleasing tone and the ability to control it in a musical way. AIr pressure IS applied as appropriate to the volume you wish to play. But the source of air pressure is not only from abdominal muscles but ALL of the muscles involved in exhalation, not to mention the elasticty of the lungs that also contributes (or detracts) to air pressure.

As for air speed, it varies widely thru the system and depends in turn on flow. And flow depends on total resistance including embouchure efficiency, acoustic properties of the instrument, etc.

In fact, no relationship has been establishedand the concept is easily dismissed. It is possible to play a low C at a high volume with much "faster" air (thru the aperture)than a much softer high C.

Now, higher pitches Do require, in general, more air pressure. Perhaps that is where the confusion lies among players and teachers.

The terms "speed" and "pressure" have been confused.

Vibration has "frequency" to determine pitch. The speed of the vibrating medium can actually vary on a constant pitch depending on amplitude. But, as was noted one can use a variety of air speeds on a constant pitch, depending on volume.

Hold on there! Wayne said before that the "speed" of vibration determines pitch. Hown can the the "speed" also determine color.

The fact is that the freqency does determine pitch. Not the speed, of the air, or of anything.

As for tone "color" it is determined by the frequency content of the pulsations. Or to put it another way, the "waveshape" of the pulsations.

Here is an interesting article from ITG that is informative:

http://www.trumpetguild.org/pdf/2003journal/0306science.pdf

While I have great respect for Wayne as an arranger, I am afraid he has fallen into the propogation of some widely believed but very much erroneous, inaccurate and unnecessary "analysis" in regard to the subject.

The presentation of some of these ideas could be a real stubling block for some players. As they were for me.

Tongue arch, abdominal pressure, and the visualization of the action of creating air speed do have a place in teaching methods. But for the cause of accuracy it would be nice to see players and teachers take an interest in the real science involved. It might be of some benefit.

What a shocking revelation! Poor Wayne.

Imagine how successful he could have been had he known what you know about "tongue arch" and "waveshape." He really could have carved out a career for himself.

Please provide a link to the Trumpet Guild's upcoming article on protein-starved, dehydrated, sleep-deprived, sun-poisoned teenagers playing and jazz-running on a poorly maintained high school practice field.

[kalijah]

once your air makes your lips vibrate, it is essentially useless. the air makes your lips vibrate, which makes your mouthpiece vibrate, and that is what creates a pitch.

Air flow is required into the mouthpiece on each air pulse. It is required to create sound energy.

It is not the "vibrating lips" that are amplified by the horn.

If you could get the lips to vibrate, in the same way, but without air pulses there would be very little sound.

The acoustics of the horn require a significant flow on each pulse and there is a minimunm for each volume you wish to play.

You can improve or reduce the air flow required through efficient embouchure function, bet even at perfect efficiency there is still a minmum and significant flow required.