Blue Knights design and approach

[traveller30]

So as to redirect the Mankato Mojito thread back to that particular show and focus on some of the thing brought up specifically about BK, I thought I would open this thread up

Ok so I have bit my toungue while people have been bashing BK and their "Audience is not important" stance. The truth of the matter is that the us vs. the world comes from people like yourself that automatically jumps to conclusions about a corps you know nothing about. Our corps cares nothing about the audience? Give me a freakin break!!! The truth of the matter is that the style they portray may not suit you or others, but that doesn't mean that the audience hates it!!! Go back and look at the posts of the favorite 7th place- 13th place shows written on this board and you'll see many people that love the past shows. In fact the '06 corps was not booed, the crowd was booing in support of the feeling that they thought highly of Crown. The scores say that as well as the only thing that BK beat them in was percussion!! ( Crown was 12th in percussion) It is one thing to have an opinion but to criticize what the corps stands for and to generalize the way you are is absolutely absurd! Do you know why we have the corps song we do? Probably not because of your comments. "I Go On" was the 1990 ballad and it was the first year that BK had a realistic shot to make it into finals. It came down to Dutch Boy and BK. BK had gone out of the stadium to a hillside and heard the cheer/roar go up from the stands and knew that Dutch Boy had made it into finals. Through the tears the staff and corps members began singing "I Go On," to soothe and remember their hope for the future. The very next year those same young people made it into finals for the first time in the corps history! Perhaps we are always the underdog and perhaps we don't have the talent of the top 2-3 corps, but what the Blue Knights have is a unique style a lot of courage and heart to go out and perform it. Ask yourself honsetly, if you marched would have wanted to put yourself through the same rigors of learning dance techniques like the guard? That's what BK does every year in addition to their marching responsibilities. What is totally BS in my opinion is that there are always assumptions that the corps doesn't care what is written about them or the audience in general. What they know is that not everybody is going to like it because it is different. What if painters only used black and white, what kind of art would we have? When modern art techniques came out did artists say "Neh, I gonna paint this way because there is only one way to paint!" Of course not and that is BK in a nut shell. Our corps has tried to establish a consistency that resembles art through movement and playing, and that is something that maybe all will not appreciate!!

As for one person meaning a lot to a corps and being responsible for traditions, is it a bad thing? George Zingali meant more to the Cadets and put them on the map, should we remember him as bogus? Of course not. In fact Mark Arnold and the Blue Knights have probably the least staff turnover every year and Mark has been the corps director for 20+ years!! He is the Blue Knights!!! As for the corps turnover this year, every one is making a big deal of this!! This happens every 7 or so years in BK. The students I marched with back in '97 ranged in age from 14-21. In fact I was a 19 year old rookie and one of the oldest members there. That same group of young people went on to stay together for 3-4 more years and finished the '00 season as a top 6 corps!! The BK students are loyal year in and out, and so what if they have a bunch of new faces!!! I know the talent they have and they are going to do very well when it is said and done!! What is so terrible of being 7-11th place? The quality within all of the top 15 corps has never been higher and the product produced by these fine young people is extraordinary. So get your popcorn, but come back and watch BK case we tend to grow on you!!!

Wes Perkins

BK '97 '98

I should clarify that I do not believe the corps think that the "Audience is not important". The approach has however changed from the "it's all about the journey and not at all about winning or placing" of the Zingali days, to a presupposition that the community doesn't get them and an us against them approach being written into the product. You are very correct that many many people love some of the shows over the last 10 years or so, I am not disputing that. I am talking about an internalized mindset that I can recognize is still there and I feel is insular and unhealthy.

As for being someone who "automatically jumps to conclusions about a corps you know nothing about", here is a little about me. I started marching with the Blue Knights before the corps made it back into DCI member status in 1987. The Troopers were the go-to corps for that area and the only corpswe could have any kind of sense or superiority was Rocky Mountain Magic, and that wasn't by a whole lot. I remember Zingali's first "end of the season" closer redesign session in West Virginia in '88, as well as all the homophobes in the corps complaining about having to do anything besides purely marching (thank goodness those days are gone). I was there in 1990 rebuilding the equipment truck with jut myself, Steve Yates, and 2 other snare drummers as well as standing outside in the parking lot in uniform waiting for our score to be announced at Semis (more on that later). I was there teaching in 1993 watching all the "big name" designers put there 20 cents into the Star Trek show as well as watching alot of them divest themselves of even having 2 cents to do with it later on. I remember having to bargain with the frisbee football association and their tournament that took over the fields on Finals day in 1994 for just space enough for one field for the day. I have a lot longer list of milestones that I was a part of, but I will stop here because I am afriad of giving the impression the corps owes me anything. I love the fact that the corps has evolved and moved on. Also, I know to suggest that the corps doesn't want to place well is a fallacy.

As for "I Go On", let's just say that the hagiology of that moment has taken on a life of it's own. We learned that song WELL in advance of finals as an obvious attempt to build on corps identity. Honestly though, what else was the staff going to pick? Corps songs in 7/8 and 5/8-2/4 don't really bring it like "Never Walk". Zingali had already done the emotional journey of the Bernstein's Mass show with Garfield, and as such based our show on both the soundtrack from Kenneth Branagh's Henry V - small band of fighters against overwhelming odds (and hey, what we didn't know was that we got to share that whole thing with Star of Indiana), as well as a song from some obscure broadway show of the time that was about kids not losing being just kids (at least that one was exclusive to us). That last week was emotionally trying and the sheer number of shows that the corps in our competetive bracket were having to perform that week was rediculous. Now that I have the gift of time and distance I can go back and lok at those shows and see that, guess what, all those corps were about the same. The 11th and 12th spots could have gone to any number of corps. For all the hyping of us as a visual corps, now I can say we really couldn't march that well, and the drumline had a very musical book with a new approach to playing but hardly anything to go crazy over about execution. So as for tears for hope and the future, OF COURSE the corps was going to be better. By the way, there were not quite a small number of us that felt singing "I Go On" in 1991 felt somewhat hollow, seeing as not only were we making finals, but squarely in 9th place with a 2 point gap on either side of us. I am sure deflating the mythology of that moment isn't the best for the corps now, but I just wanted a little perspective in the public dialogue about the song and the mentality that hangs on it.

Perhaps the staff turn over in the visual staff since Robbie came back to the corps is low, but I would hardly call the rest of the staff exactly stable. You use phrases like the corps having "courage and heart" and "Perhaps we are always the underdog". I have to disagree that the corps is always the underdog. '92, '94, '99, '00, '06 anyone? I would posit that the words courage and heart are only used for groups that fall short of competetive goals (please notice I am NOT talking about the other stuff a corps goes through, at whtever level they are). No one is saying "gosh the Blue Devils kept pushing through last season with all those rookies. They sure had a lot of courage heart". Listening to all the kids in '99 ##### ing about getting screwed when they came in 5th before ONLY coming in 7th at finals (tying the corps record at the time) really broke my heart, but that is just me, and I of course am clearly on the outside of the corps anymore. I mention all of this because I remember the blacklisting of people who weren't happy about marching in the corps or wanting to move on to differen't challenges with another corps. I remember because I was a part of it. I also remember our hype whenever someone would come to us from other corps was that we were a family. We were MORE of a family than those big name corps that you would only be one piece of a machine in. Plus, some of those other corps were just crazy and cult-like such and the Freelancers and Boston. Guess what I saw when I got out and away from BK. The bigger corps I teach at? Family. The Division II corps I have worked with on and off? Family. Those weirdos that were in Freelancers that I am friends with now? Family. Hard to see from the inside though, and I see too much of that from the kids that do leave there for other places. Long way to go for those last few sentences I know, and I apologize. I appreciate every opportunity the corps has lead me to in my life, and I do want them to experience every success possible but I can see the forest from the trees. I do understand none of this is probably going to change any of your minds, I just felt the need to set a tiny bit of the record straight. Now upon hitting the "preview post" button I see how long this unfocused monster of a post is and I apologize again! Please feel to correct any misconceptions I have and I will try to stay as open minded as possible.

[Keith Laubhan]

Thanks for posting this. I think it's great to hear some perspectives from someone who was there when the corps came to age, about 30 years after its founding.

I think BK's largest issue, from an internal culture standpoint, can be chalked up to growing pains. BK, like all corps in their tier, want desperately to get better and break through into the elite. No one wants to stew around in that 6-14 area forever. For that to happen, though, requires many things, a lot of which is outside the kids and current staff's control, and some of which the corps has yet to discover. And that leads to a feeling of immense frustration that has molded the corps over the past several years... maybe the last 15 or so.

The feelings of hurt when members leave to go to more competitive corps after developing them, the feelings of disappointment of feeling competitively undervalued (especially in '99, as you have mentioned), and the frustration of falling out of finals after their highest finish (with what most consider superior overall talent in the membership) have all shaped the current culture and strongly affected how they perceive themselves.

It's easy to see how some of the tribulations can breed an us against the world mentality, and I agree that at times, especially at the extremes, it can be unhealthy. I'd really like them replace "us against the world" with just "us." Don't worry about what other corps are doing. Focus on their history, their intrinsic goals, and let the rest take care of itself. They're capable of doing that artistically, and that needs to be the end goal culturally, too. No reason why "I Go On" needs to be symbolic of everything going wrong... every reason why it should represent coming together and forging ahead, no matter the perceived obstacle.

Mark knows the importance of identity, and its an issue I've spoken at great length about with him. The Blue Knights are finding their way, and in the 50th anniversary, it's nice to see them starting to embrace their past instead of shielding themselves from it. I do think they're going to work through this phase of their development eventually, and when they do, I expect them to truly flourish.

[BRASSO]

Just so there is no misunderstanding on alleged BK " Corps bashing ", the other thread had the following comments from BK folks :

BLUEKNIGHTMOM : ( quote )......" the ( Blue knights )programs can be a bit obscure or artsy even for the most diehard BK fans "......." kids ( BK ) grow to love that nobody cheers for them ".

HAMPSTERDEATH4 ( BK Alum) ..( quote )......."Many times we ... WE......just didn't care what the audience thought....."Who cares if anyone likes it ? "....... " we.....WE..... actually loved getting booed ( '06 )

I responded to these comments on that thread and said I disagreed with these approaches to design of shows and the performers approaches to the audiences, but that " I respected that position " and recognized that people look at things differently, and that I acknowledged that BK looks at " life lessons," Corps friendships that develop, and so forth, as much more important than an audience reaction to what they do on the field in show performances.

Edited June 24, 2008 by BRASSO

[Design Hound]

Just so there is no misunderstanding on alleged BK " Corps bashing ", the other thread had the following comments from BK folks :

BLUEKNIGHTMOM : ( quote )......" the ( Blue knights )programs can be a bit obscure or artsy even for the most diehard BK fans "......." kids ( BK ) grow to love that nobody cheers for them ".

HAMPSTERDEATH4 ( BK Alum) ..( quote )......."Many times we ... WE......just didn't care what the audience thought....."Who cares if anyone likes it ? "....... " we.....WE..... actually loved getting booed ( '06 )

I responded to these comments on that thread and said I disagreed with these approaches to design of shows and the performers approaches to the audiences, but that " I respected that position " and recognized that people look at things differently, and that I acknowledged that BK looks at " life lessons, friendships, and so forth" as more important than an audience reaction to what they do.

Having trouble understanding.....

This, and just before, Keith saying " BK, like all corps in their tier, want desperately to get better and break through into the elite" being a cause of the "internal culture issue."

Wanting desperately to become elite seems to be opposed to looking at life lessons etc as more important...

[Keith Laubhan]

Having trouble understanding.....

This, and just before, Keith saying " BK, like all corps in their tier, want desperately to get better and break through into the elite" being a cause of the "internal culture issue."

Wanting desperately to become elite seems to be opposed to looking at life lessons etc as more important...

I don't think being an elite corps and placing the highest importance on life lessons and a sense of family are mutually exclusive... in fact, I think you need the latter to acheive the former.

[Design Hound]

I don't think being an elite corps and placing the highest importance on life lessons and a sense of family are mutually exclusive... in fact, I think you need the latter to acheive the former.

My point is, if they're desperate for becoming elite, and they keep taking the same design approach, and adopt an internal attitude that only breeds complacency with, or even desire to NOT draw crowd reaction (GE is worth 40 points these days, isn't it?). I don't see this approach leading to ever becoming "elite," only bitter corps members who take for granted that they are as successful as they are.

If a member places family, friends and all else above competing, which is the purpose of touring the country for weeks and weeks (everything else could be done in a single location, couldn't it), then a member would not be bitter or angry towards me if I happen to mention to them their finals placement of the previous year.

[traveller30]

OK Keith, I am going to ask some specific questions instead of another meandering monograph from myself, and I would love your take (or anyone else's for that matter) on things.

I think BK's largest issue, from an internal culture standpoint, can be chalked up to growing pains. BK, like all corps in their tier, want desperately to get better and break through into the elite. No one wants to stew around in that 6-14 area forever. For that to happen, though, requires many things, a lot of which is outside the kids and current staff's control, and some of which the corps has yet to discover. And that leads to a feeling of immense frustration that has molded the corps over the past several years... maybe the last 15 or so.

What do you feel exactly are the things OUTSIDE of the staff's control that would need to be in place for the corps to move forward? Also, the more I think about it, growing pains probably is the best phrase to explain where BK is at, but how many years should that state of being last? That was a phrase we bounced around quite a bit back in the 80's.

[Keith Laubhan]

My point is, if they're desperate for becoming elite, and they keep taking the same design approach, and adopt an internal attitude that only breeds complacency with, or even desire to NOT draw crowd reaction (GE is worth 40 points these days, isn't it?). I don't see this approach leading to ever becoming "elite," only bitter corps members who take for granted that they are as successful as they are.

If a member places family, friends and all else above competing, which is the purpose of touring the country for weeks and weeks (everything else could be done in a single location, couldn't it), then a member would not be bitter or angry towards me if I happen to mention to them their finals placement of the previous year.

In terms of the show design, I'm going to repost what I said in the Mankato thread... it's the best way I know how to articulate my feeling on the matter...

As a former member and someone who is still active within the organization, I can tell you that the Blue Knights don't aspire to be boring or the crowd's least favorite. The corps doesn't hype on getting booed, and doesn't intend to take 10th place every year.

The Blue Knights take great pride on bringing something different to the table, and being unashamed to present what they feel is true to themselves. Love them or hate them, get them or don't, you can't argue that they don't do their own thing and give the activity something truly unique. If you don't get it or like it, the only revelry they take in that is that they did it their way, and didn't bow against themselves to be something they're not.

I don't agree with every design choice, and I completely understand why some audiences can't wrap their heads around what the corps does, but Blue Knights plays an important role in DCI. I'd rather them do their thing and connect strongly with fewer people than go back and be "Cadets Lite" like they were 20 or so years ago.

Oftentimes in art, of any genre or medium, you need a maverick. Someone who does something that their contemporaries don't always appreciate. I think Blue Knights are that group for this day and age in our art form.

[Keith Laubhan]

What do you feel exactly are the things OUTSIDE of the staff's control that would need to be in place for the corps to move forward? Also, the more I think about it, growing pains probably is the best phrase to explain where BK is at, but how many years should that state of being last? That was a phrase we bounced around quite a bit back in the 80's.

I think all of these are tough things to answer, which is why BK finds themselves where they are at, and likewise why corps like Boston, Spirit, Colts, Glassmen, and Crossmen find themselves where they're at. Heck, you could even make the argument that Bluecoats and Crown, until they spend another couple years in the upper eschelon, are just in the same upswing that all of these corps have had a one time and belong in the group, too.

All of these corps face similar roadblocks to becoming "elite," by whatever definition you choose. Blue Knights isn't necessarily facing anything different than them. I'm sure we all know what these issues are, and none of these corps have found a way to solve them and sustain themselves in that upper tier for more than a few years at a time. If the innovative answers were obvious, they'd all be there... and if I had those answers, I'd be a highly successful director somewhere. :)

As for the growing pains, I don't know how long they'll last or how long they should last... I'm sure they're similar to what the corps faced trying to become a perennial finalist when you were a member. It's going to take a change in culture to get past that, and that change of culture can't happen overnight.

I will say this- any issues the Blue Knights currently have (and I'm sure it's the same with the groups that I mentioned above) aren't due to lack of passion and effort of several highly dedicated folks within the organization. It's truly amazing to see how hard some of these people work for the organization. I can't help but get the feeling that BK has the capability to improve its situation and be able to sustain it... it's just going to require some creativity or innovation on an organizational level.

[traveller30]

I think all of these are tough things to answer, which is why BK finds themselves where they are at, and likewise why corps like Boston, Spirit, Colts, Glassmen, and Crossmen find themselves where they're at. Heck, you could even make the argument that Bluecoats and Crown, until they spend another couple years in the upper eschelon, are just in the same upswing that all of these corps have had a one time and belong in the group, too.

Completely agreed with you that this is where those other corps are as well, but once I say that it starts to beg the question of why BK has already been close to the ceiling and fallen away, and I am still wanting to try to get from you what the outside forces are that would affect the corps in a positive direction.

All of these corps face similar roadblocks to becoming "elite," by whatever definition you choose. Blue Knights isn't necessarily facing anything different than them. I'm sure we all know what these issues are, and none of these corps have found a way to solve them and sustain themselves in that upper tier for more than a few years at a time. If the innovative answers were obvious, they'd all be there... and if I had those answers, I'd be a highly successful director somewhere. :)

I think the use of the term "elite" is a bit of a MacGuffin/red herring. I am still trying to figure out why the 4th place- 6th place is such a volatile competitive area, but I consider the level of execution of some of those corps, depending on the year, is still at an relatively high level. Maybe not enough to cross over into the top 4 or top 3, but still at high enough level (I will reference this last season (2007) as such. From this, I need to ask what happened exactly after 2000 (BESIDES show choice/design choice) that lead to the drop out of finals?

As for the growing pains, I don't know how long they'll last or how long they should last... I'm sure they're similar to what the corps faced trying to become a perennial finalist when you were a member. It's going to take a change in culture to get past that, and that change of culture can't happen overnight.

I will say this- any issues the Blue Knights currently have (and I'm sure it's the same with the groups that I mentioned above) aren't due to lack of passion and effort of several highly dedicated folks within the organization. It's truly amazing to see how hard some of these people work for the organization. I can't help but get the feeling that BK has the capability to improve its situation and be able to sustain it... it's just going to require some creativity or innovation on an organizational level.

Passion in drum corps should almost never be questioned, it's a given 99% of the time probably. The skills to pull off whatever the mission statement of the group is, by whoever those individuals are that you are talking about Keith, is what I would question. However, that is speaking of the internal issues I am still trying to not talk about yet.

Thanks for indulging me on this everybody. The BK site is deader than a corpse right now except for that poor "AmysMom" still putting up the good fight all by herself in the forums.