DCI Judging 101

[Plan9]

It's true that Phantom "jumped 3 places with the same show" but they didn't do it all at once. Each night they passed the corps that performed directly after them and no others. Crown, then Cavies, then BD. It's true that by Saturday, the crowd was pretty much 100% behind them, but that built throughout the weekend as the crowd suspected that something special was happening. I don't doubt that the buzz in the crowd before, during and after Phantom's show each night probably affected the corps that followed. Entertainers since the beginning of time have faced the same dilemma -- a tough act to follow. I don't think that that necessarily translates into the judges being affected as well -- maybe just the performance level of the corps following PR were a little flat because the crowd was a little flat (resting?). I just think this was one of those years where what the crowd was looking for and digging was the same thing the judges were looking for and digging and the direct comparisons night after night with the next corps in line made the choice clearer to each. Doesn't always happen that way (just ask Madison). Maybe it's as simple as that ....

Thanks for the response, well stated. One last question: If PR's show was so effective and got the crowd to build over the last three days as you say (something in the air and all that), then we are also to assume that they were moved by their sheer musicality and music performance (their strong point in the recaps). I don't think so, they were moved by the show (and IMO, the homer factor), which in itself is a visual and general effect event. They should have dominated those areas, but just the opposite happened. In fact, their visual performance was 4th. Your point about judges and crowd looking and digging the same thing is clearly the opposite. They were looking and digging completely different things. The crowd went crazy for the slaying of the DM at the end, not really a great music moment, but a creative and dramatic moment (biggest of the night).....where was the effect?

Next year in Indy we will see if the homer factor returns and if the champion wins on merit or emotional backing. Thanks again for your civil and intelligent response.

[Liam]

Thanks for the response, well stated. One last question: If PR's show was so effective and got the crowd to build over the last three days as you say (something in the air and all that), then we are also to assume that they were moved by their sheer musicality and music performance (their strong point in the recaps). I don't think so, they were moved by the show (and IMO, the homer factor), which in itself is a visual and general effect event. They should have dominated those areas, but just the opposite happened. In fact, their visual performance was 4th. Your point about judges and crowd looking and digging the same thing is clearly the opposite. They were looking and digging completely different things. The crowd went crazy for the slaying of the DM at the end, not really a great music moment, but a creative and dramatic moment (biggest of the night).....where was the effect?

Next year in Indy we will see if the homer factor returns and if the champion wins on merit or emotional backing. Thanks again for your civil and intelligent response.

So I guess I don't understand your point, then. Let's assume that it was a "homer" crowd as you say (although I don't agree -- I saw lots of folks in Cavies garb, Cadets garb, even BD garb backing this show, but for the sake of argument ....). If the judging was affected by a home crowd (i.e., winner chosen), I would expect that to show up in the visual and GE categories as you state. But Phantom won with percussion and music performance, which is what it is regardless of crowd response. My point of judges and crowd liking the same things wasn't meant to imply that Phantom got first in everything, just that overall, the mix of judges came to the same conclusion as the crowd -- not that one was dependant on the other.

I guess I'm just confused a little by your assertion that the homer crowd influenced the placements when you also state that in the areas that would logically transpire, Phantom didn't place as well as in other areas. Please help me understand your point.

Edited August 15, 2008 by Liam

[mad_scotty]

I don't consider emotional intensity to be the same thing as audience reaction. I read it as the emotional intensity of the corps itself.

I don't feel that Star '93 caused a huge emotional response from the audience, but the emotional intensity of the corps itself was very obvious.

I also don't think that the corps that best sells a show to the audience has to mean "gets the most applause" so again I don't see how you are saying that audience reaction is half of the equation. You're just making up numbers to support what you think should be the case.

this isn't your high school band doing a spring concert in front of a captive audience of students and obligatory parents, where the goal is for the performers to show the growth they have achieved through the course of the year. dci is a paid professional performance in front of a public audience whose relationship with the performers is roughly equivalent in most cases to the relationships pro sports fans have with their teams. internalized emotional intensity would be fine if someone was playing in a bubble, but drum corps don't do that. your desire to remove the fans from the equation is shared by dci, but this has been a disastrous policy. less fans=less money, and thats no good for the activity as a whole. and that isn't me making up numbers to support what i think, thats me reading the actual numbers of less corps playing at less corps in front of less fans and drawing the only possible conclusion, that this is bad for the activity.

oh, you might want to test your theory about emotional intensity having value outside of its ability to communicate to an audience (why let a musical principal as fundamental as communication between performer and audience spoil your fun, after all?)---go out to a street corner, any street corner, and be completely disengaged but "emotionally intense" for a couple of hours and see how many girls stop to talk to you.

[mad_scotty]

Take a look through fromthepressbox.com at the 92 season. Where there are recaps available, the Cavies brass scores all season long just don't place them where you think they should have placed.

DCI North they were 1st in brass tied with PR and the Cadets. Nashville 4th, over the Cadets and PR, under Star, BD and the Scouts, DCI South 2nd to BD and over PR, 1/4 finals 4th over the Scouts and PR, under Star, BD and Cadets, semis 3rd under Star and BD, over Cadets, Scouts and PR.

So while there was movement up or down show-to-show a spot or two, the entire season does not seem to bear out yuor assertion.

where in your mixed up crazy world did you see me asserting that judges scores were accurate or deserved? seriously, unless your tone deaf, go and listen to the recordings of 92 finals, the cavies were a bottom tier hornline. easily the worst hornline ever to win a championship, and clearly not in the class of star, bd, phantom, scv, madison or the cadets that year.ironically enough the next year they had a pretty decent hornline, particularly the contras, their best until their current run of excellent brass started in the late 90's. but 92 was just a poor hornline all around, no way around it.

[DantheOldMan]

Well, Hawkeye, at least I got you talking.

Tuning of the drums IS on the scoresheet!!!!!!!!!!! C'mon. I've spoke with judges more than once about this after my high school kids' performances. one judge docked us b/c he didn't like our short bass tuning range, and then I had to explain that our bass 5 quit the week before. another time we blew 5 tenor heads in the lot. cranking new heads will do absolutely nothing in that situation. the drumheads fell flat and were way out of tune, and he called us on it. The drum angle thing i don't know about. Tuning though, totally fair game.

I understand that tuning of the drums is on the scoresheet. That has validity for bass drums or tympanies or tenors. I stand corrected as to those drums. (As an old snare drummer, I don't think farther down the line ). All I am asking is should it be an issue for snare? Should a mylar head matter over a Kevlar? If everyone uses Kevlar and just cranks them down, why should it matter?

Wow. Is no one else going to call this one out...?!?! It is VERY POSSIBLE 9 are cleaner than 7. I don't mean to be so direct, but I can't fathom your rationale here? Can you explain how its impossible..!?! seriously.

Yes, it is possible for 9 snares to sound cleaner than 7 when the 7 are god-awful, but if you have 9 good snares and 7 comparable snares in another corps, you don't believe that it is easier to keep the 7 clean? Come on! I've been there (back in the dark ages, granted), but the smaller number is easier to keep clean.

Can you honestly not see a correlation between performance time and talent level?! I'm not talking about one time slot vs the next.. if you go on last, the 2nd to last corps is probably pretty close to that talent level. but in ordered shows, I'm pretty sure most people can agree that, say, performances ordered 12-15 would generally not be as talented as performances say 3-5. I don't buy your logic one bit.

Is this the chicken or the egg? Now, if you are comparing Pioneer with Blue Devils, you're right. But the corps in the middle seem to get slotted scores. I'm not talking about a regional show, but a show before regionals or between regionals. It just seems to me the scoring cooincidentally seems to follow order of performance. That's my opinion.

As to performing in the sun, it made a difference as a parent of a corp member. I would have gotten better pictures when the sun wasn't messing up my shots.

Edited August 15, 2008 by DantheOldMan

[Drumz]

http://www.dci.org/news/view.cfm?news_id=f...b7-ff339eea679a

from the chief judge himself.

[DantheOldMan]

Percussion 1 is on the field, and thus focused heavily on the battery. Percussion 2 is in the box, and thus is focused more on the pit and the overall percussion ensemble. Since they're seeing different things and using different sheets, there's no particular reason why they should agree on score or ranking.

There's a stronger argument for expecting consistency when you have two GE Visual judges standing side by side.

Your right. But that doesn't explain a spread of 4th and 11th places. I can accept 4th and 6th, but 4th and 11th doesn't work.

You are aware that performance order at regionals and championships is determined by the corps' scores in the current year, right? If you're performing at 5PM with the sun in your eyes, it's because that's the slot you've earned.

Yup. My post was addressing scoring before regionals or between regionals.

DCI.org has this feature called "recaps" that lets you see the rankings given by each individual judge. Not a single judge at finals put the corps in performance order. This is typical of the results at a major show.

I know all about the recaps. But, the recap just creates more questions. Going again to the San Antonio show, looking at the recaps gives me no reason why the battery was picked 4th by one judge and 11th by the other.

Frankly, your post comes off as very poorly informed on the topic of scoring.

I do believe that this thread is called DCI Judging 101 (which means it is a primer). As I said, I would like more information about scoring. I am the paying public, I am not a DCI expert. But, I am a former musician who played music for over 16 years in the 60s and 70s, and marched in college in a Big 10 university in the 70s, who unfortunately didn't have the time or money to march in a DCI corp. When I went to a DCI show in the 80s or 90s, I didn't follow scores, because I didn't care. Now that my son is marching, I don't see the equity in the scoring. I would like it explained. So, if I'm poorly informed, why don't you discuss scoring on this thread that someone set up to talk about scoring and answer my questions. I may be wrong in my conclusions, but I believe this is the place to ask.

[Michael Boo]

...I do believe that this thread is called DCI Judging 101 (which means it is a primer). As I said, I would like more information about scoring.

...

Before I simplified things, I wrote an analysis of the sheets several days ago that went into MUCH greater detail.

But even I got a headache reading it.

[DantheOldMan]

Before I simplified things, I wrote an analysis of the sheets several days ago that went into MUCH greater detail.

But even I got a headache reading it.

I can imagine. Scoring gets the vexation of many fans, mostly because most of us who don't know how it works or what is being looked at. I know that the judges are really trying to do a good job and be fair and consistent. But, since it is subjective, those of us on the outside still question things when we see irregularities. Some people don't care, but there are some of us who do. So, it is a really an interesting problem. I know enough about percussion to know which drumline is better than the next, and I know which marching routines I like or brass books I like, but it would help us non-experts to know more about the mind of the judge.

But, as I said, I may be an anomaly. I know what my son would say: "Dad, just shut up!!"

[DantheOldMan]

http://www.dci.org/news/view.cfm?news_id=f...b7-ff339eea679a

from the chief judge himself.

Thanks for the link!!