Tweaking a Contra

[Brad T.]

So I recently purchased an old Dynasty M378 contra, and while I have no major complaints with the horn, it's really stuffy in the low range. I can't even get out pedal tones, but yet somehow can loudly play a written pedal F (the pedal C on a CC tuba) in tune with no valves. At any rate, one of my fellow contra players in my corps picked up a rough-around-the-edges Kanstul contra, and even with sticky valves and stuck slides, the responsiveness, especially in the low range, was amazing.

I'm looking to get this contra opened up a little, if it's possible. I own a Dynasty II soprano that was modified and opened up that plays awesome, so I know it's possible to get Dynasty horns to sound good. My contra also has some dents, loose braces, and one missing brace. What can be done to this horn to make it less stuffy and more responsive? Is there anyone local to the Ohio area that still works on bugles and knows how to tweak them?

Any the following responses, while funny and sadly true, are not viable options:

1. Buy a Kanstul G contra.

2. Buy a K-90 with 3 valve conversion.

3. Buy a Bb contra.

I have a limited budget that will not allow for plunking down more money on another contra. Thanks all!

[rayfallon]

So I recently purchased an old Dynasty M378 contra, and while I have no major complaints with the horn, it's really stuffy in the low range. I can't even get out pedal tones, but yet somehow can loudly play a written pedal F (the pedal C on a CC tuba) in tune with no valves. At any rate, one of my fellow contra players in my corps picked up a rough-around-the-edges Kanstul contra, and even with sticky valves and stuck slides, the responsiveness, especially in the low range, was amazing.

I'm looking to get this contra opened up a little, if it's possible. I own a Dynasty II soprano that was modified and opened up that plays awesome, so I know it's possible to get Dynasty horns to sound good. My contra also has some dents, loose braces, and one missing brace. What can be done to this horn to make it less stuffy and more responsive? Is there anyone local to the Ohio area that still works on bugles and knows how to tweak them?

Any the following responses, while funny and sadly true, are not viable options:

1. Buy a Kanstul G contra.

2. Buy a K-90 with 3 valve conversion.

3. Buy a Bb contra.

I have a limited budget that will not allow for plunking down more money on another contra. Thanks all!

I'm going to get myself into contra/tubatrouble here but in my mind ifyou're hopeis to get your Dynasty to play like that Kanstul, you may wait a long long time.

[Brad T.]

Like I said, I'm not expecting miracles, but I witnessed something close to a miracle with my concert tuba a few years ago. I bought a Meinl Weston 2145, 5 valve CC tuba. I bought it from Baltimore Brass, which is run by David Fedderly - Principal Tubaist of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra. He told me about some secret tweaks that he did to his 2145 that made it play like a brand new horn. I went ahead and let him tweak my tuba, and sure enough, completely different horn. Obviously things can be done, I just don't know what. Perhaps boreing the leadpipe/tuning slide and valve cluster tubing? It boils down to, I want to be able to play loud in the low range of the horn without all of the backpressure. No matter how much air I put in, it just seems to disappear. I've checked for leaks and there are none.

[nukeme70]

So I recently purchased an old Dynasty M378 contra, and while I have no major complaints with the horn, it's really stuffy in the low range. I can't even get out pedal tones, but yet somehow can loudly play a written pedal F (the pedal C on a CC tuba) in tune with no valves. At any rate, one of my fellow contra players in my corps picked up a rough-around-the-edges Kanstul contra, and even with sticky valves and stuck slides, the responsiveness, especially in the low range, was amazing.

I'm looking to get this contra opened up a little, if it's possible. I own a Dynasty II soprano that was modified and opened up that plays awesome, so I know it's possible to get Dynasty horns to sound good. My contra also has some dents, loose braces, and one missing brace. What can be done to this horn to make it less stuffy and more responsive? Is there anyone local to the Ohio area that still works on bugles and knows how to tweak them?

I have a limited budget that will not allow for plunking down more money on another contra. Thanks all!

I know people like to riff on Dynasty horns, but I've never understood that prejudice. Granted the high brass is a whole other animal than the low brass, so I can only speak of the contras, but I have nothing but respect for the horns. I started off playing on a chrome Dynasty II 2V, played for a season on a Dynasty P/R, then the first set of 3V 5/4 Dynasty's with Bluecoats. In DCA, I went back to my 2V DEG, then moved on to King K-90, then to the 3V Kanstul Grande (the good ones, not the first gen with the teeny-tiny back bow and a monstrous flare...), finally finished on my favorite of all, DEG 4V 5/4.

Never played on that particular version you now own, but I can't imagine that they totally flubbed on any contra they would make. With that in mind, I'd say that there's probably nothing inherently wrong with the horn, so start checking the things you would check on any horn: make sure there are no leaks anywhere in the tubing, spit valves, valves, etc. Make sure that the pistons line up with the valves - I had a very stuffy Conn in college that turned out the piston was off the valve by almost 1/4"...new felts to line it all up, and it was great. Check the braces as well...possible that vibrating tubing could disrupt the harmonics of the horn, especially at those low frequencies. Might be obvious, but make sure there's nothing stuck down in the horn itself...we had a guy start with us that hadn't played anything for 10-12 years, so thought that the stuffy tone was just his lack of practice. 3rd rehearsal in, something in his horn starts rattling something fierce, so we spun it, and out fell a beer can!

Good luck with the horn, and keep us posted on what you come up with!

edit - just reread that you'd checked for leaks...disregard that part...

Edited April 19, 2010 by nukeme70

[HornsUp]

These things are Willsons and generally don't play badly. I just borrowed one yesterday to sub on a SDCA show. It was kind of a rat, but still very playable, none of the probs you describe.

I would agree with the poster above that there is some sort of obstruction, or valve alignment prob. Play another horn of the same model and see if there's a big diff.

Edited April 19, 2010 by HornsUp

[Brad T.]

HornsUp,

When did Dynasty move the contra production to Willson? The horn I have still has the "old" style DEG logo and, for lack of a better term, saddle-shaped braces. Also, what is the best way to check the port alignment? without really having a straight shot to the valves, it seems hard to do. I've done port alignments on trumpets, concert baritones, and Sousaphones - pretty much anything where the slide arrangement allows easy line of sight into the valves.

Thanks for the responses so far everyone, also, does Dynasty still supply the saddle-shaped braces? I know there is one missing from my horn.

[BigDale]

The mouthpiece can make a great difference. Try a different mouthpiece. If this is the model I am thinking of, it is a smallish bore horn, with just a bigger bow and bell configuration. Madison was using these horns in '85 IIRC, while VK was using the newly designed Kanstul 2v horn that Keith Brady and I helped out on. We lost the 1/2 valve kick slide, but gained a very intune midrange, by the tuning strobe. Shave any lip hair too, it makes a difference!

Edited April 19, 2010 by BigDale

[Brad T.]

This horn is the 4/4 size 3 piston contra. It is on the smaller side and compactly wound. I tried both my standard Helleberg and my Loud LM5, and I get far more sound from the horn from the LM5. Of course, using a Loud brand mouthpiece on the Kanstul horn my corps' other contra player just picked up was a bit overkill. I could see the paint peeling off of the walls! His horn is one of the older models described above, with the very narrow bore and the huge bell flare. I likened playing that horn to playing a large contrabass trombone with valves.

I've been told in the past by my old tuba professor that a decent way to check port alignment is with a dental mirror. However it just seems those mirrors would be too wide to fit in the valve casings, unless there's a secret trick...

[Shadow_7]

Stuffy can be a sign of worn out spit valves. They don't have to look bad to be bad. Put a ziplock bag or slice of rubber from an old inner tube between the cork and the horn to ensure a good seal. If that makes a noticeable difference, well there you go. It could also be valves out of alignment. It could also be that your horn isn't using the leadpipe designed for it. That's one of the parts that gets replaced a lot. And you might of gotten a spare part from a distant relative, instead of the one meant for that horn.

As far as degs in general. They do tend to be stuffier than their Kanstul counterparts. Which might imply using a smaller mouthpiece to match the horn. Or might imply using a bigger mouthpiece to compensate for the stuffy low end. In either case check for leaks and alignment issues first. Degs aren't the cream of the crop, but they're not too bad when in working order.

Check your valve cluster, it probably has a switzerland or something on it if it was made by Wilson. Otherwise it could be a brazilian version (or where ever those are made).

[Brad T.]

I never noticed the valve cluster. My horn is in fact a Willson, that is "Swiss Made." Just went through and aligned the ports on my valves and checked once again for leaks. No leaks from any of the slides, valves, or the horn itself. I have a magnetic metal base to put a CB antenna on, and it was wide enough to cover the exit of the horn (after I removed the bell that is). There are zero air leaks. However there are three dents of "concern," one on the first valve tubing, the other two very close to each other on the main tubing right underneath the bell.