DarkHorner Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 <Cons Absolutely ridiculous to get in tune and to keep in tune (I think everyone has had an experience with crazy out of tune F horns before). They are much heavier on the bell side of the instrument than a mellophone. The playability of these instruments suffers greatly while marching (for an example, hold an F horn and try to march and play it without hearing your steps). Being a longer instrument, it takes more air to create a big sound.> You naysayers crack me up. It's like you never heard top corps from the late 70s or 80s...all of whom (except Garfield) used French Horn bugles - IN G (longer horns than the Bb horns being discussed) - to stunning effectiveness, including accuracy, pitch, volume, and blend. As for them being heavier...oh my, tell it to the Euph players. <Larger bands or corps (from the more intensive marching) should stay away from such a volatile instrument.>> You get your wish without making a single valid point...now that's a win for you! I'm not being a naysayer, and sadly I was not around in the late 70s to hear this. I would actually like to hear corps use a blended sound like the baritone/euphonium blends that are used to get richer sounds. I was simply stating the reasons why corps nowadays do not use marching French horns, from my experience with both F mellos and Bb marching horns at least. And I think I left this out in my other post, but (as much as it pains me as a horn player to say this) the F mellophone is a much more researched and well-designed instrument than the current Bb marching horn (if you play both side by side, the obvious differences are very apparent). (P.S. I would hate to be a euphonium player out there. I tried holding up one of those things and could barely last 10 minutes without tiring. HUGE respect to those guys) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidp Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 (edited) This argument doesn't fly with me for three reasons: 1. I play Horn and I do so in corps with no problems. It is true that the partials are closer together on Bb marching horns, but if you are a quality player, this is definitely achievable, especially given how much time drum corps put into perfecting their act. 2. The partials are no closer together than the partials that a lead player on a trumpet or baritone faces while playing in the upper register. 3. The Kanstul 284. This is an alto F, bell-front horn that has exactly the same partials as a Mellophone. Sweet playing instrument. Someday, a top corps will win with a mix of instruments other than the standard 4 instruments, and it will change. Maybe. So then, would it be possible/practical/feasible to replace/supplement the mellophone with an F marching horn? What is the major difference between an F frenchie and a mellophone, besides the obvious? Not trying to stir the pot, just curious. I am discussing with my wife (i.e., trying to get permission, lol), to march in a corps either in the next year or two, or when I turn 50 (3 years from now), and if possible, I'd rather march F frenchie than mello (I have an old DEG F marching french horn (the Kanstuls do look nice, though), and also a King Bb, but they're both laquer rather than silver plate. I also, somehow, ended up with an old short-wrap, piston-rotor french horn bugle). I play horn in a community band, and would be afraid that switching mouthpieces back and forth at my age (oh yeah, I'm really a geezer, ) might screw up my horn chops. I've played a mellophone with a horn mouthpiece, and I agree with everybody else that it's not a good option. Again, I'm just curious. Thanks. Edited September 4, 2011 by davidp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad T. Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Chris (randomnoise) is exactly correct...the partials are what they are, regardless of brass instrument. If one uses an F alto marching horn, for example the Kanstul Chris mentions, then one could perform the mello book from any corps using the F mello and find the partials in exactly the same places as the mello players. This is not correct, unless you planned to play an octave lower than written. The F mellophone is pitched a 4th below a Bb trumpet. A marching French horn is pitched an octave and a 4th below a trumpet. The reason why French horn fingerings are so confusing is because a French horn is normally played an octave higher than a similar brass instrument. To a mellophone player and a Frenchie player, looking at a C in the staff will yield a concert F4 from both horns even though they will utilize different fingerings in a C major scale to get there. This is why Frenchies were so popular as G bugles, because in the written range of the Frenchie bugle it was entirely chromatic. Played down an octave? Not so much. Then it is just as non-chromatic as every other horn. If someone were to play a mellophone book using the same exact partials and fingerings as they would use on mellophone, they would be playing the book an octave lower than written. That C in the staff would suddenly become concert F3. It took my a few years to realize that the secret to French horn playing is no secret at all. It's just a whole lot of tubing played an octave above the natural fundamentals of the tubing and with a super tiny mouthpiece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra Clark Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 < F alto marching horn> Brad, you would be exactly correct, except Chris was mentioning an F alto horn. The terminology gets very confusing, but by 'F Alto Horn' he did not mean what we meant in the 70s when we'd sometimes call the middle horn section the 'alto' section, he meant the instrument is one octave shorter than the standard F horn. So on an F alto, the partials truly are exactly the same as the mello. One may ask, 'then why not just play a mello?' - the secret to the horn sound is two-fold: the length (not a factor when discussing an F alto...), and the depth of the mouthpiece, which will offer a significantly deeper tone than the mello with its more cornet/flugel/trumpet mouthpiece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad T. Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 My apologies! I missed the Alto horn mention! Oh well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothOperator Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 < F alto marching horn> Brad, you would be exactly correct, except Chris was mentioning an F alto horn. The terminology gets very confusing, but by 'F Alto Horn' he did not mean what we meant in the 70s when we'd sometimes call the middle horn section the 'alto' section, he meant the instrument is one octave shorter than the standard F horn. So on an F alto, the partials truly are exactly the same as the mello. One may ask, 'then why not just play a mello?' - the secret to the horn sound is two-fold: the length (not a factor when discussing an F alto...), and the depth of the mouthpiece, which will offer a significantly deeper tone than the mello with its more cornet/flugel/trumpet mouthpiece. So an "F alto" is designed to play an octave above an F mello, like in the same range as a soprano? I think I read this somewhere, but if the naming convention is not confusing I don't know what is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornsUp Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 the secret to the horn sound is two-fold The "secret" to the horn is way more than two-fold. The player's hand in the bell quite significantly mellows the tone color of the open horn. And the horn is played indoors rear-facing, so all of what is heard is largely dependent on room acoustics. French Horn bugles, and their marching band counterparts, are much closer to being bellfront Wagner Tubas. We will never have a true French Horn tone color outdoors. Except with electronic samples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FHdork Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 <So an "F alto" is designed to play an octave above an F mello, like in the same range as a soprano? I think I read this somewhere, but if the naming convention is not confusing I don't know what is. > The F alto French Horn bugle is the same length as the mello - whereas the F French Horn (bugle or regular horn) is an octave longer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornsUp Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 The F alto French Horn bugle is the same length as the mello - whereas the F French Horn (bugle or regular horn) is an octave longer... Sorry, but our bugles have all been in G. Yes, the G French Horns were pitched the same as the baritones. The F marching French Horns now, as well as the ubiquitous Getzen Frumpets, are indeed an octave above the concert horn. They are, in effect, descant horns pitched the same as the F mellophones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FHdork Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Geez...terminology hell... We all agree...let's drop it already! I'm happy to stipulate that YOU are correct... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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