The value of a talented staff

[jdmello]

For the sake of clarity I would limit it to those members whose corps were at least six positions apart.

I bet if we heard from an OC corps member who went to Spirit that same year, we'd hear a similar story in which Spirit's instruction was better than the OC corps (Div 3, whatever). And the specific differences would be the same! Because the differences look mostly like matters of degree as far as I can see.

I went from a 20th place corps to a finalist corps. I went from kids whos first time playing that instrument was the first camp(including me!) to kids who know exactly what they were doing. I then took a 5 year break from DCI after some family trouble and went to audition for a top 4 corps. Every dang person was a music major with serious chops. That's just my experience. I still think staff makes a big difference, but talent definitely doesn't hurt. You can ride talent to top 12 for sure.

Edited August 8, 2013 by jdmello

[Pete Freedman]

This would be like every Junior College or Community College student assessing the instruction at a lower cost Junior College or Community College and then when they transfer to the higher cost ( and much higher salaried educational staff ) of the 4 year College or University assessing, by comparison the quality of the instruction at the higher quality, more resource filled, 4 year college that the student transfered to. No can do. Its comparing apples and oranges in my opinion. While its possible that a few of the instructors at the lower 2 year Junior College, or Community College were first rate, we can assume with some level of confidence that the quality of the instruction was better at the 4 Year College or University than the 2 year Junior or Community College. Thats because the educational staff at the Community College woould prefer to be at the more prestigious 4 year University if they had that ability and choice. Similarly, the Corps Director and the show designer of the top 3 Corps are paid more than the staffs in Corps 15-22.... and it costs more to go to march BD than it does Jersey Surf, Pacific Crest, etc... and it costs more to attend Tufts University than it does to attend Ajax Community College. Its all Apples and Oranges, imo. It would be equally unfair to compare the quality level of the instruction at the 4 year Tufts University with that of the 2 year Ajax Community College. For one, their mission and their calling is much, much different. Not coincidentally, unlike DCI top tier instruction, and the lower levels of DCI instruction, including that of the Open Class.

What teaching "resources" does Harvard have that a community college doesn't? Better smartboards? Nah. They all have those now. PowerPoint projectors? Ditto. Better books? All are available. Web portals? Similar. Harvard has one thing the community college doesn't have; much smarter students coming in. It certainly isn't teacher quality; four year research institutions are famous for largely ignoring teaching ability in favor of research citations in tenure decisions. In fact, teaching quality is often appalling.

But anyway, all the technologies put together are still not as big a factor as the teacher. It's still all about the teacher. And providing that teacher and his/her dean with student feedback that compares a given teacher with others is the kind of thing that teaching colleges (i.e. those that care about education) focus on today. The one I worked in (not as a teacher) was obsessed with student assessments.

As far as drum corps goes, you're right in describing factors affecting the difference in instructional quality. This method would not solve all those differences. But one of the key differences is the skills and attitude of the instructors, and using the student to provide a unique comparison of good vs. better should help. In other words, just because it's hard to improve at the lower level doesn't mean they can't do it. All I'm saying is member feedback - specifically targeted comparative feedback - could help.

I would add that in addition to publishing all the results without corps names, each corps should be given a set of those assessments where the student was there (earlier or later), provided the student checks the box allowing it. With an indication of which of the two assessments refers to them, and what year they were there.

Now excuse me while I wave my magic wand and make all this happen!

[BRASSO]

Harvard has one thing the community college doesn't have; much smarter students coming in.

.... and to follow the analogy, BD has much better quality and experienced MM's walking thru their camp doors each winter too. Year after year, after year. Its unfair to compare ( for example) the instruction at an Open Class Corps ( or a non TOP 15 World Class Div. Corps for that matter) with that found at the Blue Devils or the Cadets, as their missions are totally different. We might actually agree that the instruction might actually be better at the Ajax Community College than the Instruction at Harvard, because the instruction at the Community College can be so remedial that they are taking someone really raw educationally and moving them up to college level, insofar as a COmmunity College Level is concerned. Harvard, like BD, is taking available talent that can already do acceptable levels of work and challenging them to become proficient at the highest levels of their chosen field. The Open Class Corps and lower tier World Class Corps are doing yeoman's work with the legends of inexperiended talent that oftentimes has little to no experience in doinf Drum Corps at all. Nobody walks into the BD snare line at their offseason camps that is inexperienced in doing competitive Drum Corps, picks up the sticks, and earns a spot in line. But they do in the Open Class and in some of the lower Tier World Class Corps. And so comparing the instruction at the BD percussion line and that of ( for example ) the Spartans Drumline, or the Pioneer Drumline, or the Jersey Surf drumline, is a folly exercise, imo. The missions are entirely different, and the quality of the instruction different, and the talent available to the staffs entirely different.

[JKT90]

From my perspective, it was the philosophy of each staff. I can't speak for Brass or Guard or Visual or Administrative, I can only speak to percussion. Totally different philosophies. And after bearing witness to each drum line that year. I can say without question that Spirt's drum line had more talent in it than Star's did. Yet, look at where each drum line scored. So from my perspective, I don't buy that all the top tier corps have more talent in them, I saw first hand, and honestly was surprised at what saw in Star's line compared to Spirit's. Spirit was vet laden across the board, Star had a 16 year old marching tenors. So, what was the difference? Why did Star's line score points ahead of Spirit's that year? My opinion, the philosophy as it relates to teaching, expectations, professionalism, positive reinforcement, confidence, etc. It was NOT about talent or experience.

Edited August 8, 2013 by JKT90

[jdmello]

From my perspective, it was the philosophy of each staff. I can't speak for Brass or Guard or Visual or Administrative, I can only speak to percussion. Totally different philosophies. And after bearing witness to each drum line that year. I can say without question that Spirt's drum line had more talent in it than Star's did. Yet, look at where each drum line scored. So from my perspective, I don't buy that all the top tier corps have more talent in them, I saw first hand, and honestly was surprised at what saw in Star's line compared to Spirit's. Spirit was vet laden across the board, Star had a 16 year old marching tenors. So, what was the difference? Why did Star's line score points ahead of Spirit's that year? My opinion, the philosophy as it relates to teaching, expectations, professionalism, positive reinforcement, confidence, etc. It was NOT about talent or experience.

I feel nowadays the talent gap is HUGE. Teaching does make a big difference, but I marched in 3 corps all with large gaps in their score placement. Each group was on a completely different level from day 1. Not even the teachers can cover the gap to make that 12th place corps top 3. The talent is just not there yet.

[JKT90]

I feel nowadays the talent gap is HUGE. Teaching does make a big difference, but I marched in 3 corps all with large gaps in their score placement. Each group was on a completely different level from day 1. Not even the teachers can cover the gap to make that 12th place corps top 3. The talent is just not there yet.

I have no doubt you're correct. However, my point is specifically related to those two drum lines. To me, it was all about instruction, design, writing, overall approach, etc. and not talent.

Edited August 8, 2013 by JKT90

[jdmello]

I have no doubt you're correct. However, my point is specifically related to those two drum lines. To me, it was all about instruction, design, writing, overall approach, etc. and not talent.

I understand that. I could see that happening. I feel there are a few corps out there who could definitely be in a different grouping then they are in right now with the proper staffing.

[JKT90]

1375994310[/url]' post='3305552']

I understand that. I could see that happening. I feel there are a few corps out there who could definitely be in a different grouping then they are in right now with the proper staffing.

No doubt.

[Tekneek]

One method is grind on you to be perfect, the other is setting a high bar with high expectations and instilling confidence in the performers that yes you can and you will reach it. The other is, you mess this up and we're watering the book. You "tick" this and I'm taking it out. The other is, yeah we wrote some hard stuff, and yeah we're keeping it in so you better get on the bus cause we ain't waiting. One is challenging you to do more, the other is motivation by fear to not be the one who got the book watered down.

This applies in all aspects of life. A great many people live and operate by the worse of the two options presented, while the other choice tends to get the better results. Problem is that it isn't as intuitive/easy an approach as it sounds. Many people just don't feel like it will work so they won't even try. However, the best CEOs/Managers/Educators/etc know how to pull it off and get more out of their organizations than the others on a regular basis.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Tekneek