Stu

skewerz: That is such an ambiguous statement of opinion because "the sound" is different each era. What Sound defines the activity? Drums exclusively without Bells (1930)? Rotor G (1940)? Valved G (1950-60)? Added Timpani (1970)? Grounded Full range Marimba, Vibes (1980)? Kevlar Drum Heads(1990)? Bb Brass (2000)? What sound era are you referring to, and why is that particular era "the only" definitive sound?

Yep, that said it for me: No Money, No Activity to even complain about.

It did not, and should not, affect the player's performance; that is true. Any excellent performer is trained to do their best "at all times". But I will guarantee you it affected how the performers felt internally. The internal feeling of making a great tackle, a great catch, or a great touchdown is vastly different when 100,000 fans scream in a large stadium as apposed to 1500 in that same large stadium. And that feeling, that experience of fan exhilaration, is very important to the memories which live on after the moment passes.

Sexy Dance!!!! 2009 Boston Core of Temptation!!!! Woo Hoo!!!!

Awww, come on now; it would be fun to see Regiment players tackling Devils players with Gibbs running out on the field arguing with the Ref about a Roughing the Soloist penalty!!!

A short rabbit trail courtesy of skewerz, guardling, and bozzlyb (and I can do that because I am the OP of the thread : It appears that it is a matter of individual definition concerning how much one is allowing for change before the activity turns into something different. skewerz said (exclusively drums, bugles, and guard) well, if we use that as the specific binding definition, drum corps' have not been drum corps' since bells (percussion they may be but they are not "drums") were added in the 1930's; guardling stated that the definition has been allowed to change along with the various changes throughout the entire history of the activity (adding dancing guards, 2 then 3 valve G horns, grounded pit, then Bb horns, then electronics) all of these have been deemed part of drum corps; bozzlyb maintains that there is a point at which the activity changes so much it loses its identity (to him adding woodwinds for example). As we look at the history of drum corps, we see some people leaving with the addition of a valve to the G but others being drawn into the activity, we find people leaving after the addition of dancing guards but others being drawn to the activity, etc... it is sort of an ebb and flow of the activity. Maybe we are just in a flow (outgoing tide) stage instead of an ebb (incoming tide) stage. Would there be any argument to that assessment?

Tom: If it is an overall cultural change throughout the entire spectrum of music, then DCI needs to do nothing more than downsize and adjust to the overall market, as well as tap into where the people are like selling Videos on Amazon or posting stuff on Youtube, instead of attempting to add/subtract things, play at larger venues, create the TOC shows, or adjust their judging system to increase their share of the market, correct?

BozzlyB: Ok, so to you a Blue Man Group style unit would radically change the activity into something other than drum corps (ie no brass, no color guard) got it. So, here is a second curious question (and of course anyone else can answer also): "Hypothetically", you would rather see the organization of DCI fold than allow, say, the addition (not radically change) but the addition of woodwind players to be able to perform; even if that allowance would possibly attract more youth performers and paying audiences?

Sorry, but you are incorrect: Chad Sexton of the rock group 311 (former Sky Ryder), Chris Martin of the Chicago Symphony (former Spirit), and Pete Simpson of the Blue Man Group (former Trooper) have all done those types of promos for DCI; they were just placed on an edited DCI finals DVD and not placed on on broadcast/cable stations as PSA announcements (which again are "free" adds to run).

BozzlyB: This is nothing more than a curious question. So, "hypothetically", you would rather see the organization of DCI fold due to lack of future commercial appeal than allow, say, groups like Blue Man Group, Stomp, and Here Come The Mummies to be able to form youth oriented units and compete within the activity; even if that allowance would possibly attract more youth performers and paying audiences?

fsubone: Everything you said about the member experience in the activity is accurate. The thing is if the audience dwindles, and you perform to less and less people while the costs remain the same or go higher, DCI will not be able to financially sustain itself; which in turn will eliminate all the great experiences you mentioned about membership. To help the activity stay solvent, and since you are a current member, what ideas would you propose to increase the numbers of paying people attending Finals?

Simple: to get people to take notice; and it apparently worked, because you asked the question

> then [NASCAR] road races must be G8 shows right? only a few a year. The difference is that the TOC G8 shows are exclusive to just the top 8 corps' from the previous season, but even the few NASCAR road courses consist of the (current) top 35 in points plus the next 7 highest qualifiers and either a provisional past champion or the 8th next highest qualifier.

Mello Dude: That Cigar-smoking, Dress and Hat-Wearing, Smug-Snob photo was one of the best nonverbal commentaries I have ever seen!!!

> The same could be said of ANY concert performance, be it Springsteen, Boston, Chicago, Cleveland, Atlanta symphonies, the Met, etc. But, your opinion can't change the marketplace all by itself... Concert tickets...$400? Download the video...$1.29? See a bootleg on YouTube...FREE? The costs are only going in one direction... So, some people could care less about the difference of the sound live versus recording. Some people could care less about analog vs. digital signals, etc. In this era of Autotune, many pop sounds aren't live any longer. Tom: The thing is that while fans of Springsteen certainly download $1.29 videos or watch bootleg Youtube videos for free, they "still" will (in mass) buy the $400 live Springsteen concert tickets thus selling out pro stadiums. But the fans of DCI who can purchase inexpensive Fan Network downloads or watch bootleg Youtube for free are tending to stay away from the live DCI performances. That is the difference between Springsteen fans and DCI fans; and it is a huge problem which needs rectification.

I am becoming a master at theses double posts

> And the "service" that drum corps offers is about the artistic and lifeskills training that it provides the kids on the field - it's really not about you guys, no offense. And DCI has not been that "training service" since their attempt to move to ESPN and their attempt at Major League Status; the only problem with that shift was that DCI did not seek enough corporate sponsorships to allow monetary compensation for "professional" performers (ie like non-profit professional symphonies). No offense, but either DCI needs to revert to that "training service" mentality (which will drop the level of performance quality) or go full steam ahead and become an outlet for professional musicians like symphonies. DCI is trying to claim both (training and major league) and that cannot work.

mobrien: A non-profit does not mean “do not make money”; it just means that all profits have to be put back into the organization and not into a private owner’s pocket. Also, if revenue is less than outlay the organization will certainly go belly up; DCI and the respective corps’ should be very concerned about making money. And now you are knocking Mr. Williams? A professional who has 18 gold and 3 platinum albums; and performed with Frank Sinatra, Bing Crosby, Ray Charles, Ella Fitzgerald, Aretha Franklin, and the rest of those, what did you call them, oh yeah, limited aesthetic entertainers. Well then, with all due respect, you really are well versed on both business and musical criticism and should call Dan Acheson to become a consultant. Now, do you have any constructive ways to help DCI grow, or are you still going to throw insults from the ivory tower at all the insignificant little people down below in Branson?

> I'm assuming they are pushing for pro-stadiums and doing extra TOC shows because they know that a market is out there to be had. The push to more pro stadiums was an attempt to legitimize the Major League aspect in hopes of drawing in more crowds (ie the build it and they will come mentality); as for the TOC (G8) shows, these newer format shows are an outgrowth of the G7 proposal, and whether the DCI voting members caved in a compromise or there was a threat of the G7 to bail out of DCI if they did not occur, these newer format shows are sort of a trial balloon in another attempt to increase ticket sales. I personally would like to see the market research that supported both of these attempts because the cost risks are enormous.

Oh wise Sage-Apple of the East; NASCAR also races on road courses with right turns; thus reopens the comparisons

Charlie: If is true as you state, that it is a niche activity and it never will be anything else, we are back to preserving it (like a museum) or adjusting it to accommodate new technology (amps, synths). Either way, the expectation for increasing a much larger fan base would be futile, never be accomplished, and therefore any attempt to do so would ultimately cause financial bankruptcy. So, it would stand to reason, if your assessment is correct, that the recent DCI reach into pro stadiums and the increased cost to produce the expanded TOC shows which is an attempt to reach a wider audience might be a financial death nail for DCI. Is that what you are getting at?

> not that I'm with Stu and his must be like U2 mantra... Jeff: I do not want DCI to become a vastly different activity supporting rock bands instead of marching units; but I think DCI could get many more people interested in drum corps by emulating the way commercial rock groups like U2 "emotionally reach" the crowds which in turn causes people to purchase those millions of tickets.

Many musicians in Vegas and Branson have DCI experience and Blast began its stage show run by performing regularly in Branson; and the least attended show on the Branson strip sells more tickets than DCI; but that is not my main reply to you mobrien which is this: As for those buffet eating limited aesthetic people you referred to, Ray Stevens is one of the primary supporters (both financially and musically)of the Shriner's Hospitals which help severely burned children; and the Osmond's opened a Hearing Center, because the two oldest brothers are deaf, and Marie co-created the Children's Miracle Network which helps terminally ill children (and the Osmond's help those institutions both financially and musically). These musically lower than thou inferior people of which you speak have helped more kids, both financially “and musically” through their what you call limited aesthetic entertainment, than most of us here on DCP combined (me included). Now, back to the program after this public service announcement.

I give up at this gimme a negative red game; I have went from a -29 to what I have currently have which is a +2 (this mainly happened going up against Howdy in another thread, but I digress). So, I have a new game to play: Maybe I can become known as the Greenie Meanie

Sorry, I am taken; and they way I fart, uhhh flirt, there are hundreds waiting for me to become available