X DM

I do understand your point about " being talked down too " in the Cadets use of narration in this years show theme. The point according to The Cadets supporters of narration is that it would be very difficult to convey THEIR show theme without the use of narration. I see their point and perhaps that does have validity. But that's beside the point. My main comment point is that nobody seems to know how narration is judged. Maybe there are folks out there that do understand the criteria. I've just never met them. And my quick read of the judging captions and some of the criteria doesn't shed any light on how narration is judged either.

Well, it's nice to know that someone can admit they don't know much about this issue. You are not alone. I do not believe that DCI has an obligation to educate or inform audiences about how a Corps performance is judged. But they get no sympathy from me if frustration with placements and scores lead ineviteably and ultimately to some booing in some quarters as a result of that audience disconnect in being properly informed regarding judging a major component in a Corps show performance. I've always been of the opinion that education is the best buffer against ignorance and it's resultant frustrations, misunderstandings and miscommunications.

Yes, at present I 'd say that's seems true.. Nobody has effectively explained how narration is judged as near as I can tell. I've asked the question, and nobody seems to know so far. Do you know the criteria ? We know that brass caption looks at things like tone, intonation, attacks, releases, pitch, crescendo, diminuendo, blend, phrasing, uniformity, etc. Nobody seems to know what the criteria is for " good narration " vs. " mediocre narration ", vs. " bad narration ". For instance, nobody knows if more attention by judges is given to the sound of the spoken word, or to the words themselves. We have had anecdotal evidence that when the sound system was not functioning at 100% in a show that apparently no points were subtracted. That's because the following night when the sound system was clearly functioning better, there was no demonstrable difference in placement nor scores for that Corps. Thus, from outward appearances, it appears that Corps who use narration have more of a competitive advantage than those that do not. That's because apparently a poor quality of sound does not effect placement, nor a score. And the poster above has established that the use of narration was a distinct advantage in conveying a clarity of theme to judges and audiences than without it. Thus, it's quite possible that The Cadets use of narratuon gave them a competitive advantage this year. But again, nobody really knows for certain, because nobody seems to know what the criteria is for jdging a Corps that uses a heavy dose of narration in their show performance.

So Corps who use narration are at an added advantage over Corps that do not use narration ? And that's because the use of narration opens up to the Corps more opprtunities for more effective clarity of themes WITH narraton that would be difficult if not impossible WITHOUT narration ? Also, can you explain what constitutes" bad narration" from" good narration " on the scoring sheets. Do Corps whose themes seemed missed or convoluted without the use of narration this year seem ill served because had they used narration, they might have scored higher because their theme would have been communicated with the spoken word with more clarity to the judges and to the audiences ?

One of the ironies of The Cadets heavy use of narraton in their show this year is that nobody knows whether or not it's use elevated or hurt their score this year. That's because, as near as I can tell, nobody knows how narration is judged. To my knowledge, it's never been properly and intellegently explained in depth to anyone. I started a thread on here this year, and nobody knew how narration is judged. Nobody knows what the criteria is for awarding points for " good narration ", or taking away points for " bad narration ". Thus, nobody knows if The Cadets could have won without the narration, or if the narration gave them a 2nd place and without it's useage, they might have placed lower. Nobody seems to know. Perhaps even the judges have not clearly defined in their own minds, nor on the scoring sheets, how to score a Corps whose theme has extensive use of narration to convey the theme to fans and to the judges. Which ,if you think about it, seems pretty strange not having clearly defined criteria for judging a major component in a show performance of one of the top Corps of all the Drum Corps this year.

You might want to distinquish between underrated and overrated with the judges and with that of the fans. For instance, I think the Blue Devils were the most underrated show with the fans, but not with the judges. I thought the Carolina Crown were the most underrated with the judges, but the most overrated with the fans.

You" kill me "with that comment...... haha!!

Less than 25% of Drum Corps fans believe that the current judging system makes sense to them. Maybe we should "eliminate " that before the rifles ?

Drum Corps could very well be evolving into ballet. So just tell your ballet friends to just be a little more patient. In time, we may have young men and women in tights doing pirouettes, wearing eye shadow, with full make up. Some could make the compelling case that we are half way there already. When that happens, I might be for eliminating rifles at shows too.( Especially for any audience members).

I found a kindred spirit when you are talking about the too tight sounding snare drums of today compared with the deeper and richer tone sounding drums of earlier eras. The snare drums of today are wound way too tight. It's aesthetically not as pleasing to the ears ( at least not to my ears anyway )

Hey, if you want to eliminate the rifle, why stop there ? Why not eliminate the word term " guard " from the Corps sheets, eliminate swords, sabres, and call the conductor," a conductor". Why not have each dancer ( no longer " marcher ) dress up in their own individual " costume " instead of a " uniform " ? Why even have have " a cadence " ? why not allow a performer to perform any way he or she wants ? why " march " out to the field ? why not a gallop to the field, or a run to position ? Why call them " Corps " ? Why not" dance and musical extravaganza troupes" ? Why not allow these dance and musical extravaganza troupes to be allowed to bring in singers, magicians, jugglers, amplifyers, midgets, trapeze, clowns, fireworks, animals, and any manner of musical instument they want onto the field ? Why score these summer games at all ? Why stop at " rifle " anyway ? Why not eliminate all vestiges of warfare and killing altogether. Why not just bring the circus to town, put up some tents ,and then we can all be happy with some of the varied spectacle before us to please any and all taste ?

many of the show themes we enjoy in drum Corps deal with superstitution,, mytholoogy, muisc from composers dead for 300 years, and so forth. Surely no one thinks that because something is old, that it be abandoned. Otherwise, as far as show themes go, 90% of the show themes would be passe. But that would be a kooky idea to adopt as well.

Your ignorance regarding a rifle is astounding. I'm not sure where you got this kooky idea, but it sure is kooky. A rifle is as American as Apple Pie. And Drum and Bugle Corps is ( or was ) as American as Apple Pie. A rifle is not primarily designed to " shoot people ". Before you got your food from the local grocery mart, a rifle was( and still is in some quarters and in emergencies ) a method by which one fed themselves and their family. Not only in the United States, but throughout the civilized world. The rifle is also designed as a method of self defense in an area where there may be little or no effective law enforcement, and likewise a recognized and accepted tool utiilized in modern warfare to defend one's homeland from attack. A " South American " who seems puzzled by " costumes " in a show is itself puzzling. Most" South Americans" routinely dress up in all manner of unconventional garb when in theatrical or celebratory exhibitions, and it's as natural to most "South Americans " as is the rifle. Yours was a most unusual post it seems to me.

BD had a pretty sizeable win margin, and won all the major regionals. Pretty dominating Corps this 2007 Blue Devils were compared to many DCI Champions. Anytime you win Finals by more than .6 tenths, that's a lot by Championship night standards. That's my take from the competition side. From the enjoyment side, my guess the BD '07 were perhaps a little ahead of their time and perhaps did not get the benefit in some quarters for the precise execution of some of their subtle but brilliantly creative moves and musical nuances. My guess, they'll be appreciated by more fans for these things in successive generations perhaps more attuned to these brilliant subtleties. But time will tell.

# 8 spade ( posted on top of thread 4 here ) looks to me like Les Diplomates from Canada, a DCA Corps in the 60's, 70's

Those would be my choices as well.

I love " The Planets ".

I said in my comments above ( quote ) "that he wrote his stories for plays ". He was NOT involved in the staging, nor the delivery. He was a wealthy man who made his financial wealth as a real estate investor before finding the tIme to later become a prolific and gifted writer who financed his own Theatre Company. But YOUR ignorance aside, WS did not select the actors, not was he involved in the direction, staging, nor delivery of the stage production of his writings.. He had others do that. And multiple shows went on throughout the country all the time with his works even when he was alive. Then again, there are fringe groups out there that believe an anonymous actor or actors actually wrote most of Shakepeares works and that Shakespeare's name was used with his consent in order to publically finance and advance the plays. But who knows. But we do know that the Narrators of The Cadets were " controlled" in this year's Cadets theme just as much as any Corps that did not have the theme on " The Value of Choices " and a schooling of the audience that " It's my life..... and I get to choose "..... and it's MY choice ...." and blah blah blah.

Shakespeare, as I'm sure you are aware, was a Writer not a Stage Show Producer or Director. He wrote his stories for plays, but he was not involved in the actors portrayal of his works. When alive, Shakespeare was not involved in staging, delivery where the stage play " Hamlet" was performed as you said. He had NO such control as you think he did.. Even when alive. his writings were open to interpretation by directors, producers, actors world wide. And yes, I am well aware that the Director of The Cadets is " alive and kicking " and you are aware too that the Director was directly involved in all manner of staging and delivery of the show theme of his Corps, unlike that of the writer Shakespeare and his Hamlet interpretation by producers, directors and actors world wide.

I do believe I understand your point that, like Hamlet, the words in the play ( or show ) were provided to the performers, and that the performers are not speaking for themselves but to portray a feeling or message that is typical of drum corps members ( in the eyes of the author who wrote the words for the performers ). But the analogy while compelling in support of The staff at The Cadets does omit some obvious differences. First, the actors that portray Hamlet are given WIDE lattitude in interpreting the words of the author. Actors do not get instruction from Shakespeare on where and how to stand. They get no input from Shaskespeare, as Shakespeare is long deceased. Shakespeare's Hamlet theme likewise is not about the " Value of Choices ", and Hamlet does not utter .... " I believe in Choice..... It is my life...... and I get to choose ". Had Shakespeare organized a theme for Hamlet that involved the value of choices and utiilzed these similar words, Shakespeare's Hamlet would not become the literary classic that it has become. Actors who portray Hamlet interpret the authors words and portrayal of the role as they THINK Shakespeare would have liked. The narrators for the Cadets had no such interpretive powers. They were told what to say, when to say it, when not to say it, where to stand, where not to stand, and even how to say it. The fact that the theme was about the "value of choices" and who gets to decide is as far removed from what Hamlet actors do in their portrayal of Shakespeares Hamlet as can be. And it is not about degree either. If you can't understand the difference between an actors interpretive portrayal on stage of the deceased writer Shakespeares written" Hamlet " and that of the Director of a Corps making all the decisions with the narrators in a Drum Corps show regarding a theme about " The value of choices " and selecting words for them, ie " It's my life and I get to choose " etc, then frankly I can't help you any further understand the stark differences.

Is this why he appears from your comments to be numero uno on your dance card, Lisa ?

The Bluecoats show theme was not about the Value of Choices, and the Director did not instruct the narrators to say " I beleive in Choices..... it's MY life..... and I get to choose ". Had the Bluecoats had this type of show theme organized in this fashion and The Cadets did a show theme on Criminals and portrayed it the way they did,, my comments would have applied similarly, but to the Bluecoats staff, and not The Cadets staff and Director. But to their credit, the Bluecoats did not design and implement a theme in this fashion. Nor did any other Corps have a theme revolving around" the Value of Choices", and have those "choices" chosen by the staff, including the hollow ( in my opinion ) words.... "I believe in choice".... "It's MY life"..... and" I get to choose"..... and so on and so forth. If some people don't see the irony in all this.. fine. No problem. It is afterall, MY choice to see the irony and hypocrisy in those words and chuckle, and others if so inclined to infer whatever they want and applaud it's creative brilliance or whatever middle ground they have on this for that matter.

I'd have to disagree with your fans criticism here that "if there was no George Hopkins, we ( the fans ) would have to invent one ". There was Drum Corps before George Hopkins. There was never this level of heat generated when Jim Jones was directing The Troopers to Titles, Royer with SCV, Warren with Cavaliers, Bonfiglio with 27th, Blue Devils, Phantom, Blue Stars, and the others. Fast forward to today, and there is little controversy among "fans" with any of the other 21 Corps Directors. The fans do not have to invent this. It is not an invention. It was foisted upon fans. And they have responded. The notion that if Hopkins was not The Director of The Cadets, and so influential in the direction of DCI, that we" fans" would invent someone to complain about at this level of intensity is an unfortunate swipe and mischaracterization of "the fans " in my view.

Nah, I don't think we need a moratorium " for 3 months " on a topic if it's been discussed before. If a topic bothers a poster, my suggestion would be to simply bypass any thread that doesn't interest them and move on to one that does. Obviously the Director of one Corps appears to be a lightning rod for discussion that seems to interest a lot of people based upon the number of threads, views, pages. But again, if this interest on the part of lots of others bothers you, just find another thread that interests you and jump on board that thread. I don't see the big deal. And trying to censor a thread for 3 months or more simply because it doesn't interest you does not seem very tolerant of you. I see threads on here that have been repeated or threads that don't particularly interest me,. This doesn't mean I want to censor " for a minimum of 3 months " others ability to continue to discuss that topic if they are so inclined. Just learn to relax, learn to be a little more tolerant of other's interest on here, and simply scroll on by any thread that doesn't interest you.

Me too. There is nothing better than a enlightened audience, and nothing more frustrating not know how a major component in some corps shows are judged.