jojo

BRAVO !!

Agreed! Opinions, by their very nature, can't be wrong or right. I love it when people have opinions and wanna debate ... I just hate it when they try to speak for me or shove their opinions down my throat ... know what I mean?

I am an old fogey (started marching in 1970). I'm also a new fogey (if there is such a thing) becuz I'm still performing. I am TIRED of the old vs new controversy ... tastes great/less filling ... there is no right answer because both are demanding as ####. I wish the fact that we're all guard people would come first and supercede our era differences. I'm hard-pressed to understand why the focus is on the differences between the eras anyway when there are far more similarities than differences between the two

I first picked up a flag in 1970 and that's when I learned about carriage bolts (and sometimes fishing weights believe it or not). The standard then was a 7' pole with a pike on the end of it. I think there's always been weights of some kind or another ever since ... if you get those marching band catalogs you'll find that they sell flag "weights" in them but the old school hardware store variety is still my fav.

Hey Deft -- you're absolutely right about it being the Imperials!!! Good or not, it was a WTF moment. I was teaching in 76 and 77 ... I guess I could still have been hanging around in 78 but I don't think so. I do remember Canberra Brigade very well tho. I taught a B guard called the "Barons" and I saw Canberra when we took the guard to the competitions in the Northwest in 77. Stan was way ahead of his time in most things. I met him when I was 13 -- he and Mike Moxley were my very first instructors -- they were both in their age out yr as marching members of SCV at the time and they were teaching a little guard from Redwood City, CA called The Guardsmen. They are the ones who encouraged me, and several others, to try out for SCV the following year. He ended up being my instructor again at SCV in 74/75. I wish Stan could have seen the SCV alumni guard cuz I think he would have loved it. I have a super picture of him wearing a plastic garbage bag ... haha ... long story! :P

I'm thinking it was 76 ??? Maybe Western Regionals??? I remember a guard (I think it was the Seattle Cascades???? and/or a Stanley Knaub guard) that did more of a dance routine than a colorguard show ... and we all stood there with our mouths open and said WTF. Hey, who knew! Remember when it was called "comp" guard and not winterguard ... and there were posting pots, a pass in review and a color pre??? I love nostalgia!

DITTO B)

Ok, so I started reading this thread and was determined not to get on my soapbox. Oh well! Completely unsuccessful in my resolve and here I go. So who are all these "old school" people who don't like dance and want everyone to go back to the "old" way of doing things? Seriously ... cuz I'm not sure they really exist ... or at least I haven't met 'em. I don't think "old" people are looking for guard to be done the "old" way -- being an "old" person myself, I don't want it done the old way, I just like it done to the same level of EXCELLENCE and EXPERTISE (or anal-retentiveness) as it was done in the old days. Clean is good, hand positions matter, uniformity matters, posture and carriage matter -- whether you're dancing or spinning or both. Perfection is still perfection and anything well executed is beautiful. The top 12 guards at DCI in 2002 were what I think of as "new school" and they executed their shows beautifully -- period. The top 6 or so were fabulous to watch, they were awesome in their technique and one of them actually brought tears to my eyes. My issue is that a lot of guards these days tend to be sloppy and chalk it up to the so-called "increased difficulty" of the work/dance/etc. Sloppy tends to be overlooked because of the changes in judging criteria, not because of the performers or the instructors. It's not an issue of old vs new, it's more an issue of making excuses for slop. Having read this entire thread I must comment that "new" people don't appear to have a true understanding of the "old school" and the demands of performing under the tick system. Having marched in the 70s in a top 12 DCI corps, I can tell you we didn't simply stand in one place and do right shoulders and slams -- regardless of what you think you see in tapes, the shows were demanding just in a different way. The insulting thing about the new vs old controversy is that it appears that some "new" people have little or no appreciation for the old school guards (who BTW trailblazed for the guards of today). I am mystified by why what was done before is found to be of so little value and so heartily discredited. I believe the controversy is fueled more often by the "new" folks than by the "old" becuz, let's face it, the old school people who don't like the direction guard and corps have taken don't come around anymore. The diminishing attendance at drum corps shows is evidence of that. The old school people that are left are people who either remained in the activity over the years, have kids in the activity or have migrated back to it somehow and adapted -- like I did (notice I did not say evolved, just adapted). And this is a perfect place to make this comment ... "new" work is harder because I'm older, not because it's GENUINELY harder ... it's not. My 16-yr old body could've pulled this stuff off with ease. At 45 yrs old Ibuprofen is now it's own FOOD GROUP and it's what gets me thru camp weekends. I love the equipment work the Renegades are doing this year. It's fun, it's exciting, it's challenging. I feel the same way about the work I did with the SCV chicks in the alumni guard this year. Modern work and the dance moves are great fun, but so was perfecting the old school stuff ... and some of it I think we've sadly lost. For example, double hand on a rifle is a dying art ... it really is ... fan spins are hardly ever done anymore in a performance YET spin a rifle for someone who has NEVER seen it done before and THAT'S what they're most impressed by ... hmmmm. Where did push spins go? Where did the American Flag go? I have to admit to being disturbed when guard members saunter out holding 10 pcs of equipment and props and other assorted crap and adjusting the crotch of their unitard while they set equipment up all around the floor or field -- it takes something away from their aura -- it just DOES. The show used to start the moment the crowd could see you and I miss that. I'm nostalgic for the slap of metal on the inside of a rifle strap -- so shoot me! I think guards that marched in boots, long skirts, and full-sized hats should get standing ovations!!! That stuff is NOT easy to work in ... and it was work! Finally, anyone who doesn't appreciate a sustained, well-executed, high mark time has never done it correctly or they would see the beauty in it. I guess this controversy is akin to the way daughters feel about their mothers ... you know when you reach that age where you wanna be anyone BUT your mother but in the end you catch a glimpse of youself in the mirror and that's exactly who you've become ... surprise! The "new" school will one day be the "old" school ... just something to ruminate over. In the final analysis, "new" school is fun and challenging BUT we should never forgot to recognize or appreciate, in fact celebrate, the "old" school colorguards that helped bring this activity to where it is today. Let's not forget either that "old" school drum corps is where most of our current directors, caption heads, instructors and even judges come from. Ok, off the soapbox

You don't have to be a chicken to recognize an egg ... right guys? I don't play snare but I know a good snare line when I see/hear one ... I assume the same holds true in this case ... ANYWAY Doesn't anyone miss the tricks that guards used to do? I know I do. Headchoppers, exchanges, etc. Remember when 27th did rifle spins lying down !!! I remember the all-male rifle lines doing some phenomenal stuff that was entertaining as #### ... almost death defying it seemed at times Or how about the humongous rifle exchange the Troopers did in the circle. I appreciate dance and dance technique but I get bored by too much of it in a "pretty show". When done in conjunction with equipment work it can be beautiful but I'd like to see guards bring back more tricks. Oh, and I agree that dance is more of a winterguard thing ... not a field thing. ok ... leaving the soapbox (for now ^0^ )

This may seem a little backwards but for me money is the very first consideration. For example, no money for real uniforms might mean that I choose a piece of music and write a show that fits jeans or bermuda shorts or I-don't-know-what kind of ordinary/easily attainable clothing. Money also dictates how much equipment you can write into the show ... how many flagpoles/rifles do you own, how many equipment changes, silk changes, etc can you write in. I recycle everything the guard has and keep everything as we go and I've borrowed equipment too (thanks Stu!) to get through. Money is a BIG deal in a poor school district. We do various fund raisers ... cookie dough, pizza, candy, etc. and the kids are responsible for "dues" but fundraising is HARD WORK for very little profit. The budget comes first, then the creative stuff.

just drum corps ... but that included winterguard season ... I teach a high school marching band and winterguard now

I agree. I teach a Regional A guard and we focus a lot on technique, hand positions, etc. We break it all down count by count so everyone knows each check point (equipment and body). It doesn't guarantee that they will perform it that way every time, but it cleans things up tremendously. Clean still equals good in my book. I'd rather they be clean and look confident than do "difficult" work and look like a train wreck! Don't get me wrong, their vocabulary is sufficiently difficult for a regional A guard ... but I think it's important that they feel a sense of accomplishment when they come off the floor ... taste success ... improve with each performance ... and go from there with something to build on.

Kingsmen had a ######## rifle line. Check the spins in the picture of them in the 1974 (maybe 75?) yearbook. OMG.

That only happens to kids who watch too much TV! Get 'em in a corps. They'll be better for it. SCDreamer I agree with that one!!!! and one last added comment ... those people should not be allowed to reproduce!!!

OH GOOD GRIEF !!! I spent ALL of my adolescence with a rifle in my hand ... and so did a lot of people I know. To the best of my knowledge NONE of them has gone postal or managed to shoot themselves or anyone else! Out of simple respect for the activity and those that have spent countless hours trying to perfect a toss (or whatever) ... how can anyone associated with the activity suggest that weapons be banned. I expect that kind of commentary from the uninitiated but ... hey guys, come on! Add to that the DCI finalists used rifles ... and while not all corps are DCI finalists I think it's reasonable to say that the DCI finalists set the pace for everyone else. rifles are still very much a strong presence ... and hey guys, when done well, rifle is a #### impressive artform. And before I get off my soapbox ... they call it GUARD for a reason. Nothing is good in excess ... that includes being polically correct

Hi Al, 1st -- your Avatar is the bomb baby!!! I love it. 2nd -- do we have sweatshirts? I don't think so??? Hoody sweatshirts would be cool, maybe even something polar fleece. 3rd -- we could do more cool things with the baseball caps -- art on the bill etc ... and what about visors??? 4th -- pins are always hot movers -- we could come up with some new designs or sayings. 5th -- boxers are always good too C U at camp dude ^0^

SCV Alumni Corps rifle is affectionatley called "the treetrunk" These rifles are d##n heavy!!

Trish, In case you haven't already seen it ... check out marchingarts.com, photo gallery from 7/7, shot #19. I think that's your little boy.

Hi Glenn, One senior corps member to another ... you have an open invitation to come down to the SCV Hall on any Monday night and check out the run thrus. Bring a lawn chair and enjoy!

Al, thank you very much for the kudos! I was so proud to be a part of both the Renegades and the SCV Alumni corps on Saturday. It was very emotional for me and I had tears in my eyes at the end of both performances as both corps received standing ovations. It's been a lot of hard work, sacrificed weekends and achy muscles -- but all of that was forgotten the moment I looked up into the stands and saw the crowd on their feet and screaming. The crowd was simply AMAZING. I feel very privileged to be working with ALL of you. The best part is that there's more to come!! XOXO

I saw them at the Loudest Show on Earth and I really, really, really liked what they did with the elasto-poles (or whatever those things are called). When that's cleaner, it's going to be completely awesome!! No bias intended, and in fact I'm ususally pretty hard on SCV's guard, but I thought they were waaayyyy better than BD's guard (which I saw the previous week). We'll see what they look like in August.

Could it be an instructor issue? Maybe they don't have anyone that can choreograph and clean rifle and sabre work. Just a thought.

Of course ... and I don't see the problem. I love watching the guys move -- don't you? ^0^

A guard is only as good as it's weakest member -- period. If she sucks, you all suck. Sounds to me like your guard needs an attitude adjustment because I'm sure you didn't develop this perspective in a bubble. Your guard has two choices: help her accept the mistake, learn to keep her composure, learn the work, solve the problem whatever it is ... OR you can suck all season as a unit. Everyone breaks at some point. Have you asked yourself what happens if YOU break in a performance and what your guard will think of you? Wouldn't you expect some support from your guard kin?