KGTech

Preserve the legacy and traditions that made them a great corps. Start a new group which integrates those legacies and traditions into their program. While not fully the same as having the Cadets around, this keeps some portion of their DNA, which is part of DCI's DNA, integrated into the Drum Corps activity.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/204470288583 Hoping my old VHS tapes can find a good home. See ebay link above for details. Willing to negotiate.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/204470288583 Hoping my old VHS tapes can find a good home. See ebay link above for details. Willing to negotiate.

I do not know anything about Word Entertainment so in this example I will replace them with a generic "Christian based organization named OrgX with whom I have no fundamental disagreements in philosophy or tactics". If I were to provide services to OrgX it would most likely be pro-bono. Why? Because I am of the personal belief that I do not want to make money doing God's work. He has blessed me with the talents I posses and it is my honor and privilege to give back to Him That is the choice I make for myself and I do not find fault in others for taking a salary or payment from the church for the services they provide. If my sole job was to work for OrgX I would of course need to draw some sort of salary. I would expect that salary to be less than I would make in the private sector. Getting to the crux of the matter. Do I think all involved in a Christian based drum corps would volunteer their time? No. Would many? Yes. Therefore I disagree with Kamarag's assumption that it would take more money than usual to attract design and teaching talent to such an endevour. I contend it would take less money because many would be willing to discount or give away their services if they believe doing so meets the objective of "Go and make disciples" or any other objective their personal beliefs about Christianity make as their calling. -kg

My point wasn't about weekly church goes either. In fact I did not mention them. I only mentioned the professionals that provide their services to the church. Services for which they are normally handsomely paid (ok, probably not teachers). If you are thinking the relative experience in their profession that these these volunteers posses is not "top tier" you would be wrong. The big issue in attracting quality people, whether a Christian organization or not, is how serious that organization is about the product they are going to put on the field. If they put the appropriate resources in to equipment, infrastructure and logistics they will attract top talent. In short, it must be a well run organization with more than a shoe string budget.

At my church the professional TV production director does not laugh in our face, he volunteers and produces our in house and TV broadcasts. At my church several professional educators do not laugh in our face, they volunteer to put together youth teaching curriculum and teach hundreds of kids per week. At my church several professional musicians do not laugh in our face, they volunteer to perform at 4 service per week plus two evenings of rehearsal. At my church I, a professional owner of an IT services company, do not laugh in their face, instead I volunteer my time to run a computer network and phone system with a hundred or so computers spread out at 4 locations. I believe many would be shocked at the number, quality and enthusiasm of volunteers that a Christian based group would be able to garner. -kg

Interesting idea. I would imaging that if it was done well it would be accepted and well received. The church I attend would most likely produce a corps along the lines of Velvet Knights or Bridgemen, albeit with more of an edge. In fact, thinking of the type of weekly church services we normally put on the drum corps idiom may be too boring of a platform to be an effective medium for spreading the word in the manner we like to do. For those that think a Christian based drum corps would follow a typical Christian stereotype think again. With the vast array of Christian churches that range from ultra conservative to ultra modern you might wind up with a wider range of programming than the current corps' tend to exhibit. -kg

Simple reason why........ in the current design/judging system anything strange is greatly rewarded, anything more traditional is not. -kg

Top5member, The problem is that you only see the activity as being only about your experience and that the product (music, drill, uniforms) does not matter. The product does matter to those who pay to watch and listen to you as you go about achieving excellence. What you have done, probably unintentionally, is come on here and say forget you to all of the fans that support the activity by attending shows and buying audio-video products, t-shirts, etc.. What you fail to realize is that while it is about your experience and achieving excellence it is also about the music, the drill, the uniform, the traditions and everything else that the fans of your group identify with. It is a total package and all aspects must fire on all cylinders in order to sustain the whole. For several years now those who make the design decisions and those who determine the judging criteria have set out on a course that tends to alienate the fan base that provides the income stream to the activity. Worse is that it often appears as if the fan alienation is sometimes the desired result sought as part of some artistic vision. While you do see a lot of griping about the current state of the activity it is hardly ever directed at the members themselves. Instead it tends to go after the design and management leaders that make the decisions. Given your current position in your drum corps journey it is hard to fault you for seeing yourself (a marching member) and the the management/design staff of your group as a single entity being attacked from the outside. One thing that may help you understand why this is occurring is to realize that the majority of those offering criticism only do so because they see that the activity they love is failing to put out a product that will allow it to have enough fans to sustain itself in the future. -kg

With school being mandatory in these here United States it would be assumed that almost 100% of the membership comes from the scholastic world, home schoolers excluded of course. Thank you captain obvious DCI attracts the audience it is designed to attract, scholastic elite who enjoy listening to French monologues over laying chopped up musical segments performed by a jazz running herd of youth. You could also add in the parents and families of those in the herd who are contractually obligated to be there as well. If instead DCI decided to reward show design that actually engaged a wider audience they would attract a larger fan base. At some point DCI decided that the basic laws of supply and demand did not apply to them. They could move forward without supplying a product that many would want to see. To them DCI exists to provide a desired member experience of performers pleasing a specific panel of judges in an effort to achieve a desired ranking. Meanwhile the actual business of DCI is to sell enough tickets, and audio video products in order to keep themselves and the entire circuit afloat. There is a huge disconnect between these two sides of DCI. Case in point is the use of voice over samples in some productions that are not allowed to be in the video recordings that DCI is trying to sell. By catering to the creative side of DCI you have done harm to the business side of DCI. Clearly this is not a sustainable dynamic. Bottom line is DCI needs to stop catering to scholastics and start putting out a product that more people will find entertaining. A new DCI without the G7 would be free to do that. -kg

If drum corps is just supposed to be like marching band and WGI why do we even need it at all? While most people can not tell you what a clarinet is if you played the same piece of music performed with just brass and percussion and then again with a mix of woodwinds, brass, percussion and electronics I venture to say most people will be able to tell you their is a distinct difference in sound. Couple that distinct sound with the level of detail that drum corps is able to achieve because of the shear volume of rehearsal time and you have something that is unique and worthy of standing on its own. Embracing the difference is what will save drum corps. Becoming one with the WGI/marching band borg just destroys it. -kg

Your logic makes more sense now that I know that you are coming at this from a marching band point of view. You are correct, if marching bands and drum corps are similar you don't need both. The old canard of "change or die" does not always hold true. Look at the the most popular sports. How much have baseball, football, basketball fundamentally changed over the years? Very little. The core rules still apply and the basic tenants of the game have not changed. Each has excelled by extracting excellence from within their core framework, not by changing the framework. Drum corps should embrace the difference between itself and marching band by sticking to that which makes it unique. The core tenants of drum corps should be brass, drums and traditional guard equipment. Those are paints which should cover the canvass, nothing more. -kg

Would DCI be dead instantly? Probably not. Would they need to quickly adapt to a new reality? Yep. A DCI free from catering to the G7 could wind up thriving in the long run with a few changes. If I were in charge of DCI I would take a few steps back, ban electronics, schedule the first half of the season as regional touring model, book venues where we fully pack the stands, change the judging rules to encourage audience engagement and require all participating groups to perform a minimum number of free public events in the communities they call home. By getting smaller and more approachable you generate excitement in a growing fan base and lower the barrier to entry for new corps to come online. The only reason DCI would fail when the G7 leaves is the if the remaining groups fail to radically change the system. Make no mistake this would mean the end of a status quo approach. There would no longer be millions of dollars in revenue from tickets and audio/visual sales. This also means the days of a full time staff for the DCI office are over. However with bold steps and a clear vision a path forward can be found. In the end both the G7 and DCI can thrive on their own. There is no reason this needs to be an either/or scenario. -kg

For the record I never demanded that DCA apologize. I was only using your reasoning and taking it to its logical( albeit absurd) conclusion. -kg

Yep. You are correct. -kg

My logic is sound. It is based on the facts at hand, not the conjecture that filled the void left by both sides being mute on the details. Your logic appears tinted with anger towards Lee and the Renegades. You accept a judgment system where a conviction and sentence proclamation is released but the evidence supporting the decision is not. All we got from DCA is "Renegades guilty, one year suspension." My question is guilty of what? But oh no we don't want to talk about that, that is a secret. Give me a break. Who knows I may actually agree with you and think the Renegades owe an apology. For whatever reason both sides have decided it is best not to put their cards on the table. While it is plausible that a Renegades member did something so horrendous that a one year suspension from DCA is in order; it is also equally plausible that DCA received undue pressure from the hotel to drop the Renegades or else. In that case DCA would be the target of justified outrage for not protecting its own and caving to extortion. (For those of you prone to set yourself on fire over the last couple of sentences please first look up the definition of hypothetical in the dictionary) I quite frankly am baffled as to why my position of waiting for the whole story to come out before passing judgement is such a hard concept to grasp. Since that is the beginning and end of what I am trying to get across I don't think any further comment by me is needed. There will be those that get it and those that don't. I can live with that. -kg

Again, not what I would do. I am only playing the tape forward on the logic others are using when they call for the Renegades or anyone else involved in this fiasco to apologize. -kg

You are wrong on many levels. If you are going to expect the Renegades to apologize for the alleged actions of one (or some) of its members then you also need to expect the same apology from DCA since the Renegades are just a subset of DCA. Then again DCA is just a subset of humanity as a whole therefore all of humanity owes an apology. You go first please since it is your logic that led to this conclusion. On another level, if you want Renegades to apologize for creating this "disturbance" then by definition the same request needs to be made of DCA since it take two to tango. Might as well ask the same from the travelers bureau since it might be that their over reaction played a part in all this angst. Speculation, conclusion, and making of demands is a vicious cycle that eventually consumes all in its wake. Wouldn't life be far less complicated and confusing if we on the periphery stopped using partial logic to demand apologies for events that we ourselves are not directly involved? Or is the satisfaction that some get from judging the actions of in-actions of others just too much of a self gratifying opportunity to pass up? -kg

Your logic only makes sense if you are also asking for DCA to apologize for their actions regarding "everything that led to this". No one on here has any standing to expect or demand apologies or explanations from either party. That is my whole point. -kg

So sorry I am not helping. What was I thinking getting in the way of your righteous indignation. Please proceed because after all this entire affair is all about you extracting the apology that you feel is due. All I did was point out that for the most part this horse is dead and it is time to stop the beating and leave the corpse be. I'm sure there will be another one along shortly that you can train your whip on. FYI: Not intentionally anonymous. My name is Kevin Gilliatt, I live in Goodyear AZ. I used to live in the SF Bay area and have seen the Renegades live a handful of times, the last time being in 2004. I was never a member but did once inquire about joining the pit for the 2002 season. A job layoff prevented that from happening. I'm not here to argue for or against the Renegades as I simply don't have enough information to pass judgment. The thing is with both sides remaining officially silent on the matter there is not enough evidence to draw any final conclusion. Until that happens the best we can do is try to keep the pitch fork mob from making matters worse. -kg

Sadder: People not directly involved in this matter thinking they are somehow owed an apology. In the interest of helping you move on please accept my heartfelt thoughts in the video linked below.

I submit to you the "demand" and "tantrum aspects you ascribe to his plea are all of your own making. Clearly he irritates you to some degree so you color your perceptions of his comments as being in the most negative connotation possible. I tend to do that myself sometimes as no one is immune to it. In this case we can go back to the actual written written word and see "request" and "appeal". Both are classically submissive terms. Taken as whole this statement is generally one of wanting to remain connected to DCA and finding a way to work it out. I don't know what actually transpired to cause DCA to suspend the Renegades nor do I advocate that the decision DCA made was right or wrong. Since both sides so far have declined to let the entire topic be aired in the light of day all we are left with are people filling the void with speculation, conjecture and personal animosity. This does nothing to further the activity, it just slowly decays it. By the way, while I thought attaching sex offenders to the Renegades/DCA topic was not particularly fair, I do think it is important to be discussed. Thanks for bringing it to light in the separate thread it deserves. -kg

I did not see a demand. I did however see a request. In my view a sincere one based on their position. Is there something else you have seen where they have demanded or used a more demanding tone? From Lee's public plea: I don't know why I care if I "have you" or not. But for some reason I do.

I don't know. In my mind going to a different continent instead of DCA qualifies as moving on. -kg

I have no dog in this fight and have no idea if anyone is right or wrong. So far in the 20 plus pages of this thread I have seen a whole bunch of people using the situation to further their personal agendas. Some appear to dislike the Renegades and think they got what they deserved. Others like to admonish the Renegades for not being at once contrite and silent on the entire subject and letting it be handled behind the scenes. Some are using this opportunity to air personal grievances against people who offended them in the past, even if those people are neither Renegades nor on the DCA board. Then there is the "there ought to be a policy" crowd and their calls for DCA to micromanage every single aspect of the member corps experience to ensure it meets their expectation that everything is perfectly safe and it is now OK to come out of their bunkers. Don't forget the "what about the children argument" that an activity widely known to be a place for adults let loose a little should now suddenly be kid friendly and not do anything to scare off nervous nelly parents. Lets not forget to add the proverbial cherry on top and bring sexual predators in to the mix. Have I missed anything? Probably as this thread has turned in to such a freak show my brain can't keep it all straight. Based on all this verbal vomit I have only been able to conclude the following. 1. Renegades bad. 2. A Yelp posting may have been the final straw breaking DCA's back and making them say no more. 3. A double secret probation punishment was applied and surprise, surprise the secret was quickly revealed. 4. Depending on your view of the Renegades and/or their ring master lawyer friend a whole bunch of people either became sad, mad or frightened. 5. Both the Renegades and DCA appear to have made their decisions and moved on, leaving behind all this insanity in their wake. If anything I would say the Renegades and DCA are both handling this in a manner that best befits their respective organizations. DCA being staid and silent, Renegades kicking up a little dust while they make lemonade from a pile of lemons. I don't fault either for what this has become. They are who they are. To those who worry about how this appears to an outsider I think I can tell you it is not the initial incident or handling of it that would give me, someone whose entire knowledge of this topic was gleaned from this board, great concern. It is instead the almost comical bickering, back stabbing and grand standing that many in the thread have taken too that would give me pause. Why would anyone anyone want to associate themselves with this fan base? -kg