Green Fleurdelis

The other side of the coin is that they'll see a huge jump in score between July 1 and championship week!

In 2011, the Cadets had the 3rd best score in the country on July 1, and also at the San Antonio show later in July.

I rarely quote an entire post, but in this case I will -- just to say "nicely done: clear, concise, cogent". Plus it helps that I agree with you. :)

:: smile :: Yes, you could argue that. If you look at the data in my opening post of this thread though it seems that the greater-than-two-position-moves-up are pretty evenly distributed top to bottom.

Unless one just happened to be a Scouts fan of course. Don't get me wrong. I love Boston. But, well, you know...

Intrigued, I took a look at this over the same time frame (2010-2014). Indeed, it is extremely difficult to move up more than one place after San Antonio. Much more rare than placement moves after July 1. This is not surprising. Here are the corps who jumped up more than one position (x to y); and how far behind the "y" corps they were at the San Antonio show (i.e. - the deficit they overcame). 2013 -- Boston (10th to 8th); 2.25 points 2011 -- Cadets (3rd to 1st); 0.65 points That's all. And one could argue that the Cadets' move is not extraordinary since it was only overcoming less than a point deficit.

Interestingly, the Cavaliers relative placement from July 1 to Finals was unchanged -- 2nd best score at both points in time.

Neither hype nor myth. It happens. Just not commonly (especially if the point deficit is more than 2).

Well stated. I believe these statements explain the resiliency of the July 1 placements. Or, pick any other arbitrary date. I was surprised at how early in the season the placements settle into what is most likely to be the final placement. Again, exceptions exist. Major moves upward are not impossible, just unusual.

Interesting digression. In the olden days of yore, everybody marched with their local corps. Why? Because they could. Heck, just think of the Chicago corps back in the 60s -- kids would generally only march in the corps that was in their neighborhood. Park Ridge. Skokie. Norwood Park. Cicero. Loyalty was very high. Nowdays virtually no one marches with their local corps and there is substantial competition from candidates all over the country to become a member of the few remaining drum corps, so loyalty is reduced. And there is another factor, which is the characteristics of the average marching member -- in the old days, we were mostly just kids. Nowdays the members are mostly college age music majors looking for the best experience.

Probably. I bet that after San Antonio, movement is even more rare. (Rarer?) Frankly I was kind of surprised at the predictive nature of the July 1 placements, especially if the scores were less than 2 points different. And with the complication of a lack of head-to-head competition. Perhaps the judging across the country is less variable than believed.

As the Original Poster, in retrospect I probably should not have used the term "slotting". It implies a predestination or collusion, which I don't think exists. What I think the data shows is that significant movement in relative placement after July 1st is rare. Not impossible. Just unusual. To the extent there is "slotting" or "neighborhoods", it is a consequence of early season performances. Not a precursor of placements. And at the risk of repeating myself, I think the reason for the lack of significant placement movement has to do with the supreme importance of show design -- how all the elements (music, percussion, drill, guard, theme) work together. (I am still in awe of last year's Blue Devil's show from a design perspective.) The design teams of every corps continue to tweak their show up until the day of finals. But I propose that the reason the placements remain relatively static after July 1 is that 70-80% of the show remains the same. By July 1, it is what it is. Now of course, because of the handful of exceptions, every corps has hope. And they continue to work hard. If I were a betting man I'd lean heavily on the July 1 relative positions. But in reality, it is much safer to simply adhere to the 1st Rule of Frisbee Throwing, namely "say nothing more predictive than 'watch this'." And of course, while I'm talking about placements here, I know there are rewards in this activity that go far beyond placement.

I have long been interested regarding the topic of "slotting" and the difficulty of placement advances after the first few weeks of the season. I wanted to see if my opinions had any factual basis or not. So I looked at the scores** and placements from July 1 to Finals, for each of the previous five years (2010 - 2014). Here are the corps who jumped up more than one position (x to y); and how far behind the "y" corps they were on July 1 (i.e. - the deficit they overcame). 2014 -- Blue Knights (11th to 8th); 3.3 pts2014 -- Bluecoats (6th to 2nd); 1.8 pts 2013 -- Bluecoats (8th to 5th); 1.1 pts 2013 -- Boston (13th to 8th); 3.8 pts 2012 -- Crown (4th to 2nd); 1.2 pts 2011 -- Blue Devils (4th to 2nd); 2.4 pts2011 -- Bluecoats (9th to 7th); 0.1 pts2011 -- Cadets (3rd to 1st); 2.3 pts2011 -- Santa Clara (8th to 6th); 1.5 pts2011 -- Blue Knights (13th to 9th); 3.45 pts 2010 -- Blue Devils (5th to 1st); 0.85 pts So, other than 2011 it is a pretty rare occurrence to jump up more than a single position after July 1. And only 5 times has a corps overcome more than a 2 point margin. With 60 data points, that's is pretty infrequent. Even with the unreliability of comparing the non-head-to-head east coast to midwest to west coast scores as of July 1, the sobering conclusion is pretty clear -- a jump in position after July 1 when you are "behind" by more than 2 points is possible, but very rare (in recent history at least). You may wonder "other than the above, how many corps made a jump up of a single spot after July 1?" The answer is: 2014 -- Blue Devils (2nd to 1st) 2013 -- Phantom (7th to 6th) 2012 -- Cavies (9th to 8th) 2011 -- Phantom (6th to 5th) 2010 -- Blue Knights (12th to 11th)2010 -- Blue Stars (9th to 8th) 2010 -- Madison (11th to 10th) Yep. Things are pretty well set by July 1. I don't think it was always this way, especially back-in-the-day (see signature for the years I marched). But I don't have any proof of my opinion on this -- the data is buried deeper than I have the patience to excavate. I think we had to rely much more on execution and passion which was more variable than the focus on show design these days. Show design is much harder to change as the season progresses, and does not have the same show-to-show variability. ** using corpsreps.com and dciscores.com

... multipost deleted ...

... who will go unnamed.

In spite of taking second place overall at Finals, I still take pride in knowing we won horns for the second year in a row! I don't make this claim, but my good friend Dave Scott, who is not an alum but is a Drum Corps aficionado , tells me all the time that the '74 hornline was superior to the '75 hornline. I am skeptical, but bask in the wonderfulness of the comment anyway. Gary

Maybe it was perseverance Jim. Maybe I was just crazy. But I am one of the few Scouts (along with those who marched with me during this strange span of years, like my good friend Jim Linley and future director Scott Stewart), who can say they experienced both the worst of the Scouts (I think we placed 22nd in 1968) and arguably the best of the Scouts (in 1974). As an experience to build character, I was blessed. The climb from oblivion to greatness is something that most people, regardless of the activity, do not get to experience. Especially these days in Drum Corps when it is difficult to move a handful of places over the course of a decade. Did I say I was blessed? I marched with Hall of Famers Jimmy Elvord and Scott Stewart. I played the music of, and under the direction of, Ray Baumgardt. And I was part of the small group of members who stayed as a Madison Scout when the corps split into two after the 1968 season (the other half or more went to the newly formed 32nd Hussars). Most people do not appreciate how close the Scouts came to folding after the '68 season. Without Bill Howard (another Hall of Famer) taking over, the Madison Scouts would only be a distant memory instead of celebrating our 75th anniversary this year. And because I stuck it out and helped the corps survive through a very bad time, is maybe why is cannot sing "Never Walk" without choking up. All of my beloved Band of Brothers have had experiences to treasure. But only a few of us have gone from worst to (almost) first. I am the better man for it. Gary

As someone who marched with the Scouts in '74 (aged out that year unfortunately), I'll give you my answer. First, Santa Clara marched an inspired show and we performed tentatively. But that doesn't really tell the whole story. There are a couple of interesting and little known facts that contribute to the performance levels of that night. Santa Clara, as defending champions would normally perform last. However, they did not want to perform after us so their management made a risky but ultimately brilliant decision to perform in their prelim slot -- second to last -- ahead of the Scouts. Meanwhile, our staff made a decision to make a few drill changes for finals (to reduce exposure). As a consequence we were thinking about the changes rather than thinking about putting on a great show. In addition, we actually had a couple guys collide on the field as a result of screwing up one of the changes in drill, which of course affected the confidence of the members who saw it occur. After nearly 40 years, talking about this still hurts. PS -- Thank you for your nice comments about our '74 show. I am proud to have been part of the magical year.

To the best of my knowledge Madison has not ever played Conquest. I named all my soccer teams the Conquest because I loved Boston playing it.

Conquest! One of my all time favorite drum corps musical selections. So much so that when I was coaching my son's soccer teams through the years, I always named my team the "Conquest".

I KNEW when I saw the post regarding Belleville that I'd see you posting here soon. Hope you're doing well Dave. Hope to see you sometime soon!

Hmmm. I'm going to have to check it out! And byline, nice photos -- thanks for posting them.

Now THAT made me laugh. :) GO SCOUTS!!

Bill, Thanks so much for sharing your story about your mom cheering on Frankie. I was in turns laughing and tearing up. That is truly awesome. Gary

I agree. I thought they put on a hellava show. I like the new ending too. And if I'm not mistaken, there were some other changes in the middle too. Though since I haven't seen them since Cedarburg, those modifications could have been in for awhile. GO SCOUTS! PS -- I certainly don't want to criticize any other corps, but man, what are they smoking in California? I found it almost painful to watch SCV and BD.