GUARDLING
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Posts posted by GUARDLING
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2 minutes ago, LabMaster said:
The Blue Devils led the way in brass excellence. They were innovative in that they brought a new music style to the field and did it very well. Jazz done well. They brought color to the field. They brought excellence in percussion and developed the importance of the front ensemble. If you can’t recognize this, you haven’t paid attention.
Yes, like them or not.. and them and others merely open a door for others to explore and even surpass.
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2 minutes ago, C.Holland said:
Design numbers cap achievement. The competition is won at the design desk in October. Which does take weight off the performers by setting them up for success. There’s no design by “we should really add 16 counts of (unknown) body work or something here”.
Now if you constantly get talent who doesn’t need to be taught, you spend less time teaching and more time refining and changing the show. This is how we do it on Broadway. We don’t teach technique, we teach the steps of the show. This is the difference.
this is a sign of a good designer. Before anyone says it, it doesn't mean not challenge them, explore, cheat or hide etc etc.
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2 minutes ago, jsd said:
Are you kidding me?!? BD has singlehandedly changed the activity multiple times. Go watch 1976, go watch 1994 (where they were the first corps to stage the color guard as a main focal point), go watch "Felliniesque".
My goodness...know your history before you post.
One doesn't have to be a BD fan to recognize this...like change or not
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16 minutes ago, CFC1905 said:
It’s easy to write a show that hides mistakes, or standstill during any remotely difficult music.
if you want to see what’s not easy, re-watch Four Corners. Those designers were not afraid of exposure.
Designing is not about hiding, its about making your members shine. If you ever tried to design a show that wasnt lines arcs and boxes ( not that those are easy either )and did it well you would see how difficult it is from designing it to teaching it to performing it.
Now with that said I do think a corps should be able to do what they choose, and I have seen a lot of variety and combination of movement and staging coupled with a variety of member responsibility
Something also doesn't have to be one's taste to be done well or appreciated. I have given the old fashioned eye roll in past years to certain shows only to having some of them be my favorite at the end.
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1 minute ago, CFC1905 said:
You call it doing it right. I call it the easy way out.
whats so easy about being the best? and that includes all in to top 12
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3 minutes ago, Chief Guns said:
Reminds of 2012 Perfect vs Maximum on the sheets when I got shredded by the ABBD crowd and Crown fans.
That year shortly after finals I was here on DCP congratulating BDs Guard for getting a perfect 20 in CG. In within minutes I was getting attacked from all angles by the ABBD crowd and Crown fans, pitch forks, lanterns etc.
I was swiftly corrected and told that "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT SCORE IN DCI IN ANY CAPTION." BDs Guard had just got the maximum score allowed by judges.
I took my butt kicking like a man and that would have been the end of it.................except 365 days later (Finals 2013) when Crowns brass popped a 20 on finals night, some of the very same people that attacked me the previous year, was here congratulating Crown on their "PERFECT" score..........................
When I questioned those people, they started backpedaling quicker than Deion Sanders covering Wide Receivers in his prime lol. Now that Crown got a 20, perfect scores are ok.
That's when I learned a valuable lesson. If DCP likes you, it's a perfect score. If DCP doesn't like you, it's a maximum.
True.....and Alot of that in the world lately...lol
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8 minutes ago, CFC1905 said:
Listen, the “rigged” or “buying off the judges” arguments are absolutely asinine. The two arguments that hold water are 1) BD have a significant financial advantage, and 2) they design shows around the scoresheets.
Agree....Remember the corps decide on the sheets and how they are judged...So in designing why wouldnt one design to the sheets. As far as money...ok
BD and a few others get the NOT FAIR label for doing things right I guess.
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9 hours ago, Ashontheinternet said:
now, i want to preface by stating that this is not a major issue here, rather elsewhere in the DCI community. with that out of the way, let us begin...
i have noticed a LOT (like, a concerning amount) of people claiming that somehow in some way, the judging in DCI is rigged towards a certain corps in blue. obviously, these claims are preposterous, but i can't help but get a little ticked off when i see people saying that BD is "robbing" other corps, or that BD is bribing judges or that DCI wont give them lower scores for some conspiratorial reason.
i think it goes without saying that this is absolutely unacceptable as it fully discounts the talent, hard work, and dedication given by MMs and staff, but it seems to be an idea that is spreading at a rapid rate. it should not be tolerated but it is and it is creating a toxic and unfair ideology in the community.
anyways, that is my rant. i thought i should post it out to the ether to hear what others think, and maybe see another side to this story.
This might have been said before ( not going to read all the posts ) BUT....ever notice that when someone wants someone else to win " It was rigged " BUT when they win of course it wasn't rigged.....Seems there's alot more of that going around lately.
There are even those who claim " RIGGED " even before the results are in....lol and then if someone ( or themselves actually win ) " then the conspiracy goes away 🙄
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2 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:
as for personal bias/likes....it can be tough. i'm not always a BD fan or a fan of their design style. yet when i judge GE for bands or even indoor percussion, i keep the sheet right there. the criteria. i reference it often, so that way "like" doesn't matter, the criteria on the sheet matters.
is it ok to like or not like a show? Sure! Shows i wouldn't pay to see won my sheets in the past. Why? They met the criteria.
AGREE! I have also looked at some shows, music choice etc etc with an old fashioned eye roll and ended up being a fav of mine in the end. Those situations are the best for me.
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35 minutes ago, dureau said:
I’m my humble opinion it is slotting that Is applied just before finals every year that gives the effect and reality of judge bias. Corps should be given the scores they achieved without relationship to each other. And the weighting of GE higher than everything and in addition the invisible or elimination of drill scoring by including it in GE diminishes the real proficiency of a corp. GE is way less important than music in performers growth as a musician or otherwise.
that depends who you talk to . I have said this before BUT I had gone to the symphony a while ago and the visuals to the fantastic music were crazy good. lighting, lazers dancers etc etc. When talking to people there as well as one of the musicians they siad it brought a whole new audience in.
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2 minutes ago, Tenoris4Jazz said:
Twice in my HS band career we got dinged by a judge (hard) because of a personal disagreement in style, which should never happen. Our OTL was Spirit of the Bull, so the first two notes are supposed to be loud as hell. The judge/band director believed in slipping slowly into a show, so he dinged us a point or more after only 15 seconds of our show. We listened to the tape and we're all like "Have you HEARD the song before you idiot?!?!?!"
The second time was in concert at spring competition. We closed with Chorale and Shaker Dance and it brought down the house. The first two judges gave us 99/98. The third guy gave us an 86. He liked playing the piece very legato and our director had made us put breath marks in our music so we would have obvious pauses/breaks in the performance. (If you listen to recordings of this piece by college and all-star bands, that's the way it's supposed to be played) The judge came by after the sheets had been turned in and apologized. He said he screwed up, but the scores were what they were.
Bottom line is, if you're a judge, you should be evaluating the performance of the product that night/day. You may not like the music selection, the uniforms, or the drill, but that should not be a part of your evaluation.
Actually you are partially right and sorry you had a judge like this BUT Uniforms ( If you decide theme uniforms are part of the production ) are part of the overall viewing. Color can also play into the vide a corps decides to create, mood , another. Bottom line " IF" a corps chooses to theme something and doesn't meet that threshold then it will play a part.
You are right about judging the performance BUT today the choices made to a program also does and should mean something. If you present it it's judgeable
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2 minutes ago, LabMaster said:
Maybe there are those people there. But this particular one is known. And what is known was done in the drum corps world, which we know is trying to course correct. Part of that correction should be his ouster from the very same activity he preyed on. Completely and permanently.
Hard to believe, I know BUT this person STILL has alot of supporters in the activity. Why? Im not sure, but it's true. Forget for a second the horrible damage done to the people involved BUT the horiffic way he treated most over the decades, especially once you weren'lt of use and stopped kissing the ring.
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18 minutes ago, Triple Forte said:
>> remember as far as judging or how a corps is judged and the weight of captions etc etc is decided by the corps and they have the ability to
>> change something if the want
OK so here’s the thing do all the corps have equal say or is it like our political system in this country where only the alpha voices are heard and everyone else is left by the wayside? And I get it on paper they all have an equal voice but honestly behind the scenes what really happens?
as far as raising issues and filing formal complaints how far do they really go? I know in my professional life that if I go to management with certain issues they will fall on deaf ears and I may jeopardize my own work experience by even bringing it up
it would be great if there was a lot more transparency in the judging process and the oversight of the judges themselves but I realize I am pipe dreaming on that one unfortunately
Well I can only tell you my experience, When teaching If I had an issue with a judge it was always addressed, not to overturn anything but to make know my issue with the way they thought, ALSO a person has to know to put their own ego aside and listen to whats being said and adjust if necessary. This today is way better than the early days of DCI and other systems.
Does everyone have the same say? well there will always be the louder voices than others, thats life BUT I will say that even the smaller corps signed off in agreement on many issues over the years with the louder voices.
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7 minutes ago, Triple Forte said:
I think when an effects judge looks at a corps they should completely keep their personal likes and dislikes out of the equation. Are they doing that? I don’t know do you? I can tell you this there was a particular judge who didn’t like the Beatles so right out of the gate the bluecoats were at a disadvantage in 2019. That type of thing should never be the case.
I mentioned in a separate thread that I thought it would be very interesting to see what the marching members of the corps themselves could come up with for a judging system.
I am part of a completely unrelated hobby that involves judging which can be viewed as being subjective as well. we look at entries and the entries with the least amount of errors win either a third second or first place plaque. We work in teams of three or five to avoid deadlocks. If someone has bias it is overruled by the other two judges( which thankfully almost never happens ). Would be very interesting if a caption was Judged by three judges and then they come to a consensus amongst the three of them to determine a result. Unfortunately this would be incredibly expensive I would imagine but it would certainly be interesting. 😁
by the way it’s all good having a spirited debate I enjoy it I hope you do as well 👍😁
Yes I do👍
I do agree , personal likes or dislikes should not be part of a judges approach to judging, Do I believe for the most part that is exactly what happens.Yes, I know for me when I approach any judging situation in the past I could care less who is on that field or go into viewing anyone with an expectation. Are there questionable people over the years and their alleged Bias?for sure. When looking at some of this which has been a question probably since the beginning of any judgeable activity one has to ask is the complaint due to not liking an outcome or believeing the outcome should be different or actual shady activity. That I'm sure is yet another debate that can be had.
As far as MMs coming up with some kind of judging system. Well I have always been of the belief that marching members need to be just that, members, not teachers, directors judges etc etc, If they want any of those then move on to that BUT remember as far as judging or how a corps is judged and the weight of captions etc etc is decided by the corps and they have the ability to change something if the want.
With all that said I do believe that if there are serious situations of either bias of shady activity coming out of the judging community OR a judge is not being held accountable for their decisions then the corps collectively need to step forward and investigate the situation and not ignore it. Accountability BITD was for judges was a hot mess with the old yet often used verbage of " I called it like I saw it " and that's where the conversation ended. I think being part of both I personally can say it's better now, as far as that anyway.
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44 minutes ago, Triple Forte said:
Yes everything is subjective to a degree….but even dummy dumb dumb people can assess
Who is achieving better intervals
Who is achieving flag line work better
Who’s musical ensemble is more together
etc…..
I would feel a lot better if GE was much less of a focus
AS stated for decades over and over from those part of the tic system...it was horrible and just as subjective. Now when a judge views a product what makes you think the things you mention here aren't being done .( just a question not a attack on your opinion ) A product works or it doesn't from a presentation stand point or a design standpoint or both.
One can also agree or disagree with an outcome and thats the nature of competition and those viewing it .
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12 minutes ago, jjeffeory said:
Oh certainly,
I've had to train a few band directors on the finer points of planning a good scatter drill, even back in the day.
and thats not easy..lol
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Just now, jjeffeory said:
Yeah, it is best to utilize both, otherwise form drift can bite the group in the backside.
It's probably not as important these days with the way shows are constructed with less drill and more staging.
Yes for sure But even trasitions today to staging actually do have a rhyme and reason or at least should to be done well . Random as many think it is is more choreographed than many think
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2 minutes ago, jjeffeory said:
Well, and forms will drift over time if there are no "dots". I saw this happen in marching band too many times, where the director didn't care about the dots after the band learned the drill and 5 weeks later a form had drifted so far that people in the back couldn't get to their spot without looking bad.
I think the visual judging is way too subjective after you get to a certain level where things are clean. There has been a considerable amount of time lobbying for certain things or ways of doing things to receive a certain amount of credit. If you don't have the "right" things, you don't score well, even if you're visually clean.
This is very true, there are many who only look at the dots when teaching BUT tell members always go with form NOT dot. Dots only work when everyone is right on their dot exactly ....every time,
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7 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:
I find this pretty unbelievable, honestly. You’re telling me that judges can judge a show by tenths of a point from one night to the next, based on just their own intuition? I don’t buy it.I find this pretty unbelievable, honestly. You’re telling me that judges can judge a show by tenths of a point from one night to the next, based on just their own intuition? I don’t buy it.
lol..Well you don;t have to buy it BUT it's the way it is. How would have a paper with dots help a judge and how would they follow in real time and compare to a dot book, which not everyone uses . Not sure how you think that helps. But whatever..lol
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On 8/6/2022 at 5:33 PM, scheherazadesghost said:
Hey folks, dropping this in this thread instead of the Fri Allentown one because I truly don't want to draw more attention to there.
If I ever seem impatient (or when I HULK OUT) about the status quo of fans in this community valuing relatively little things over the big issues...
...it's because since I came forward with my story in April I have come to know the stories of 12 survivors and 1 deceased person whose abuse, neglect, or harassment happened in drum corps spanning the last 40 years. I marched with at least 6 of them and remain in contact with about just as many. At least 3 of them told me they know more than one other person who was treated worse. Several of them will no longer return my contact because unearthing these stories (and seeing so little response from the community) triggers them deeply. One has literally said to me see, this is why I can't do this!
I do my best to contain my frustration and pent up anger about it, but sometimes, when I watch even the most beautiful performances by these amazing MMs who have resurrected the activity we love... I still see harmful choreographic choices that should have been remedied in the time between when I marched and now. And that's just what I see on the field using my training and expertise in artistic process.
Again, it just so happens that I can't point at a top 5 corps that hasn't hired (1) one of my abusers, (2) a staffer who enabled abuse, or (3) staffers or MMs (at the time) who witnessed abuse and have said nothing about it... except at the BAC, of course. All of these issues are connected and it all comes down to power and control (something @Jeff Ream mentioned as deeply problematic a few pages back.)
I won't apologize for my outbursts. As a survivor, I can't always control them.
I will apologize that I'm clearly not yet describing my stance in a way that is striking enough, digestible, or understandable for this community. This is truly my goal. But seeing as there have been so few survivors willing to step forward staking their names and reputations, I hope I can be forgiven for not knowing how to do this well yet.
I'm taking a break for the rest of the season from DCP at my loved ones' request. I hope to enjoy finals on Flo away from community.
If anyone would like to contact me, they're welcome to inbox me here on DCP or email me at scvmercy at proton dot me. ProtonMail is an encrypted email service and I do not share anyone's story without explicit consent.
My best wishes to you all and BRING IT OHM SANTA CLARA!
It's always been a question I have asked since the GH issue, Who knew what when AND just because one says they knew nothing I wonder about that. A narcissist doesn't hide their deeds well, especially for decades without people knowing. The narcissist doesnlt thin k they are ever in the wrong and entitled. I wouldnl't count anyone out. It's also the issue with some of those who kissed the ring for decades but when weren't useful to the narcissist, only then they exposed them ( I'm not talking about the victims ) There were many in or around these situations for a very loing time.
It's like people who rightfully complain about certain politicians who clearly showed who they were all along.
All the best
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3 hours ago, MikeRapp said:
How do they judge accuracy if they don’t know what the drill actually is?
even if they had the play book right in front of them how would they keep up...they couldnt..the point is they read what they see, as in real time, either it works visually or it doesn't
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26 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:
Do corps directors share drill books and charts? It would seem like an obvious thing to do.
Hmmm thats intersting...why ? just curious...thanks🙂
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Entitlement mentality -An entitlement mentality is a state of mind in which an individual comes to believe that privileges are instead rights, and that they are to be expected as a matter of course.
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2 hours ago, FTNK said:
Ugh, this is my father 100%
Yet people like this still get alot of support not realizing it's all a CON! rooted in control
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An intense frustration.
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
and thankfully brass lines have gotten so much better at it. Quite impressive today verses when body sculpting began..YIKES...lol