BG984

That's awful..........changes are fine, but timing was always critical...............I believe that back in the day there was a corps (not sure if senior or junior) that lost a major title for being ONE SECOND overtime!!

At DCI prelims in 1972, the Cadets received 1.8 in penalties (largest of all corps in prelims), and it moved them from 10th to 13th and out of finals. Does anyone know what the penalties were for??

It will be interesting to see the results..........I will say that I am amazed at how every year it seems people manage to fill it out, and not just finalists, either. I can't help think that the fees, plus just the cost getting to and from camps, must keep some away. That said, I live in Fla., and I believe there are near record college spring break crowds in many areas in the state; I have no idea where they are coming up with the money, especially with college costs being very high these days.

IMO, it has gotten to the point that the needle has shifted too far toward visual, and music is secondary. The day has arrived when a corps that is 4th or even 5th musically can win. I believe 4th has happened....for sure in a prelim round, and perhaps finals............for those in love with the visual products these days, and the secondary emphasis on music (ie visually driven shows....not unlike WGI) these are good times for them...........it really could be called "WGI Outdoor", and there are folks that are fine with that........in that regard, I am a dinosaur...........that show 41 years ago had plenty of visual things happening.......yet the musical product, IMO, was pretty wonderful standing still as well........

Man, I never compared things to color pre days.........the post that I did was actually a response to someone talking about the old days and results controversies.....and I posted one that showed the front page of a drum corps paper where two major championships (junior/senior) were protested on the same weekend.......I wasn't there, I was 9 years old............I was on a staff that revolutionized visual and won DCI......but we still played our tails off, with great music written by one of the best hall of famers of all time. So, you are trying to paint me into a very old dyno with absolutely no info...not good. I judged last year. I know corps are different. All I am saying is that in a 6 year period, 1994-2000, all music emphasis in the scoring was eliminated. Not 50 years ago....24 years ago. I did look at the current GE sheets, and audience engagement is on them (though I honestly believe there are some judging the caption who do not consider that at all, and I also find the term "engagement" vague and open to whatever interpretation they want). By the way, that show that we did 41 years ago was pretty good...........I think..............ironically 41 wins and one loss that season.....My initial post was simply 100% factual, showing how music scoring emphasis went from a 30% advantage to none in a 6 year time frame..........yes, I have feelings/opinions about that, as do many other people......for those who feel the shift toward visual and away from music is a good one, they are entitled to that opinion.

1966 was pretty wild (I was only 9 and not following, but this was legendary stuff) https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1681203072683803&set=pcb.3827894180866047

Sorry, but I am not hung up on "just 16 years ago"....I am not going to write a big thing, but in effect, especially those judges with visual/guard backgrounds, have given many questionable results over the years. I never stated that I think GE should simply be a "crowd o meter" of audience reaction........that said, if the judges are going to be oblivious to audience reaction and only respond to what they like as an individual, then they need to rename the caption, or it should not even be scored/utilized any more. The main just of my article (which has pretty much been left alone, because the numbers speak for themselves) is that in a 6 year time frame, the 30% scoring edge in music was whittled to zero. As I and others have pointed out, these things had to be voted on and approved by the directors. Do we have better shows as a result of these changes? Some will say yes, some will say no.......but the move away from musical emphasis is undeniable.

I still see it happening.....especially those judging GE who have largely visual/guard expertise...........

If you think that all of today's arranging is "musical", then we will definitely agree to disagree.....and it is not every group, but certainly a majority of them would fit the description accurately, IMO......I don't blame the kids; they play what is given to them to the best of their ability.........and many arrangers are trying to "keep up with the Jones'".....however, I think my description of many (not all) of the percussion and brass books, sadly, is accurate.....just my opinion...........

2008 was probably the best example I can give........yes a bit further back, but one of the most blatant examples.....if I am wrong, watch the videos.........zero comparison between response for the top 2 corps, yet the one that received much, much less audience response actually won the caption, albeit by .05. Perhaps "golf applause" was a harsh term........still, there have been times where a corps clearly won over the audience more than the others, yet was "shunned" by the effect judges..........you have already stated that you do not believe audience response should be a factor at all, so on that point, we can agree to disagree.

and I wish that they did...........

Then there should not be an effect caption, or it should be called "judge effect", as the audience reaction to the program is meaningless.....

Not exactly, but I do feel that audience response (and it is on the current sheets as "engagement") should be considered when judging effect...........I think that if a corps "brings the house down" at the end, with multiple standing ovations during their program, and another gets "golf applause", and a politely forced standing ovation only at the end, that perhaps the second group should not win effect..............

That wasn't the only question that went unanswered that week......there were just 3 of us.......2 music, and one visual..........yet we spent around 38 hours with "visual gurus" and just 2 hours with music people..........case closed.....

I actually caused a bit of a stir at a judge's conference. The visual "guru" running things stated, "the judge must discern and determine what is "truly effective"". My hand went up..."yes"......"truly effective.....to WHOM.....to me as a judge, or to the thousands of paid fans in the stands". There was silence in the room, and the "guru" changed the subject within seconds.......

I can tell you for certain, that one of them, still around, was almost single-handedly responsible for the push for a singular "GE caption", removing GE Music/GE Visual as separate entities.

I was talking semifinals, and Cadets did indeed win both brass and percussion........I never discussed visual, but they are the first to ever win brass and percussion at a DCI world championship prelims/finals show and not win....and in fact 4th as well, not even placing.....agreed about some of the visual issues (agree that black was a mistake)....but they had much demand on the fly.....the emphasis, for a long time now, is on the perceived quality of the visual product....

As the original author, the just of what I wrote was to point out something that has only been discussed rarely....in 6 short years (1994-2000) a 30 point emphasis on music in the scoring was eliminated. Today's scoring, not only is supposedly "equal", but if you look at the way things are now, you would be hard pressed to say that things are not slanted toward visual, and the changes in those 6 years were "railroaded" (and yes, accepted by the corps) by the visual community. Also, and I know there are those that will argue this, IMO today's musical books are quite fragmented, lacking in musical cohesion.....they are "demanding" in both percussion and brass, but that does not make them musical.........if the music is not fantastic (never mind good) standing still, that visual program is not going to fix it.....there are visual "gimmicks" galore, and frankly, many of the products come off as "10 lbs of s..t in a 5 lb bag". We have arrangers trying to reinvent the wheel, instead of transcribing great music, with complete musical statements. It is funny that you mentioned acoustics.....I stopped going to the "Oil Can" long ago for that reason........there is not an acoustic engineer known to man who can make drum corps sound good in there................and yes, I am getting "old"....lol

My references were only referring to panels at Championships, and thus currently 4 effect judges, all using the same sheet, regardless of background. So, indeed there are visual/guard judges who are making decisions involving the effectiveness of not only the visual program, but the musical program........yes, I do question their abilities to do so....... No "tick" system referred to (though I marched, taught, and wrote when that was still around!!) I apologize that I was referring not to MA, but actually Ensemble....specifically the change in 1994, when Percussion Ensemble and Brass Ensemble were dropped for "Music Ensemble". For many years, if a brass judge was picked, you still pretty much got a "brass ensemble tape", and maybe the entire perc. commenting was "percussion too loud here".......If a percussion guy was judging, he might talk about timing between brass/percussion, or musical cohesion, but you wouldn't hear him talk about the intonation of the brass ensemble..........there were very few guys totally knowledgeable with both brass and percussion.....that remains a problem today.......I actually judged the caption for many years..........interestingly, DCI dropped the word "ensemble" for "analysis" in 2012, but "ensemble" remained on the DCA sheets through last year......While I am at it, I can officially comment on things now that I have officially retired from judging forever, largely due to health......so I am no longer sworn to silence. The main part of my article was that at DCI in 6 short years, music went from a 30% emphasis edge in the scoring to ZERO. I can also tell you with certainty that a handful of visual gurus were largely responsible for pushing things through, and I doubt that the music edge will ever return...........in the last two years, a rule proposal, by a hall of famer, was presented to return to brass ensemble and percussion ensemble (with the ability of each judge to consider how they work together musically) for more accurate judging, and also to return to music effect/visual effect (which DCA still had through last year) for the same reason..........his proposals were solidly rejected. Interestingly, the former DCA corps have adopted DCI's sheets/scoring system.....I am just hoping for a good survival for them...concerned about how many fans will attend all-age championships, plus the additional costs for the corps..........I was there 27 years..........I wish them the best..............

In the early years especially, a significant portion of shows were run by associations outside of DCI.....also, my data was only from DCI Championship prelims/finals....from 1972 to present............it was interesting to note the changes, though, and the short 6 year elimination of the 30% edge toward music I find to be mind boggling..........

So many staffs today work for "demand", and there is demand out there, though that certainly doesn't make it musical by any stretch. Picking great music that is already extremely well-composed/arranged, and then simply transcribing it mostly and staying "true to the original", is something that is all but ignored these days. Some staff actually list musical folks as "designers", instead of arrangers/composers, and it sounds that way. "Quality of arrangement/composition"...(ie does it make musical sense, does it flow, is it expressive, is it emotional, is the musical form coherent) is non-existent in today's DCI judging vocabulary. If it doesn't sound wonderful standing still, and does not move you emotionally, there is nothing the visual package is going to do to fix that......at least not for me............... Phantom's 1996 brass book was fabulous, and they maxed it out at finals............ditto 2008........I remember laughing in 2008, because they received such a great audience reaction compared to the corps that "beat them" in quarters and semis..........I actually left before the finals scores, because I didn't want to witness the "perceived travesty".......but received a call in my car that surprised me...........though the margin was also laughable.......it wasn't close, IMO........

In 2015, The Cadets became the only corps to win brass and percussion at the DCI Championship prelims, and not only not win the show, but not finish in the top 3. There have been years where the overall music winner did not win the title, but nowadays, you can win music and finish 4th. Conversely, you can be 4th in music (and I won't be surprised if someday soon, 5th) but win the title. Spreads given in GE/Visual/Guard will always prevail over scant edges given in music. We have color guard judges judging overall "effect" who wouldn't know the difference between two musical products if it bit them. Crown has had years where they won brass.....by a tenth........over groups that frankly could not shine their shoes in that caption. Not to say others weren't decent in brass, but the clear superiority in every aspect of brass performance was not acknowledged score-wise. I remember a day when people would wait with excitement at a regional (Allentown, for example) for the scores to be announced. Nowadays, most are in their cars on their way before they are even announced, not just because of the quick availability of the internet, but because competitive excitement is gone. All said, though....the only way there will be change is if it is proposed and approved by the drum corps themselves, and there has not been a stronger influence there than the visual community, an example being last year when some proposals that would have created more refined emphasis on music were soundly defeated.

A history of DCI judging; the movement away from music scoring emphasis. This is an outline of the scoring systems/point allocations for DCI since it’s inception. Understand that every single change had to be voted on and approved by the DCI Board of Directors. Also, only the system used at the World Championship will be analyzed. Year No. of Judges Music/Visual/Neutral % Mus. Pts/ Vis. Pts Notes/Changes 1972 10 7/3/0 70/30 60/40 20 pts perc./20 pts brass 1973- 10 7/3/0 70/30 65/35 5 % removed from 1977 vis., added to brass 20 pts. perc./25 pts brass 1978- 11 8/3/0 72/28 65/35 Perc. analysis added 1979 1980 12 8/4/0 67/33 65/35 Vis. analysis added 1981 11 7/4/0 64/36 65/35 removed a perc. Judge 1982- 10 6/4/0 60/40 65/35 Brass analysis judge 1983 eliminated 1984- 9 6/3/0 67/33 65/35 GE increased..40 pts 1987 GE visual 15 pts GE vis. raised from 33.3% to 37.5% of GE score 1988 - 6 4/2/0 67/33 65/35 GE 55 pts 1989 1990 - 9 6/3/0 67/33 65/35 GE 40 pts 1993 1994- 7 4/3/0 57/43 55/45 GE Perc. eliminated 1999 GE Mus. Created Music Ensemble created 2000 - 8 4/4/0 50/50 50/50 Guard caption added 2003 *In 7 years (1994-2000) Visual judges assigned increased 17%, and a 15% reduction in scoring and 17% reduction in judging assignments in music 2004 - 9 5/4/0 55/45 50/50 2nd perc. judge added 2007 2008 11 6/5/0 55/45 50/50 Effect panel doubled to 4 judges 2009 - 10 5/5/0 50/50 50/50 one perc. removed 2013 2014 11 4/3/4 ? 50/50 GE is just overall GE first time in history that a visual judge can score a caption that was music the year before All GE judges required to extensively evaluate visual 2018 - 11 4/3/4 ? 50/50 a perc. Judge dropped 2023 A mus. Analysis added some highlights: 1994 creation of Music Analysis. An extremely difficult caption, because the judge should be able to indicate that 3rd baritones were slightly flat in pitch, and snare flam drags were flawless, in consecutive sentences....not many are that versed/perceptive in both brass and percussion. On a plus side, any evaluation in regards to how the percussion and brass are working together as a coherent musical ensemble is a good one. This caption remains a challenge depending on the background, knowledge, and perception skills of the assigned judge in both brass and percussion. 2014 GE Music GE Visual no longer exist, merged to just GE. For the first time, a judge with little or no music background/knowledge can comment/score regarding the effectiveness of the musical program, as well as visual. Those with a music background must comment/score regarding the effectiveness of both the visual and music aspects. Conclusion: for 20 years (1973-1993), even though the number and breakdown of judges varied, a significant emphasis on music was given in the scoring; 65% to 35%. In 1994, that spread went down to 55% to 45 %, and 6 years later it went to 50/50. Thus, in 6 years, music went from having a 30% emphasis edge, to none. Also, we went from 2/3 of the judging panel scoring music to 7 of 11 judges considering/scoring visual. Also, in the past few years, proposals did occur to return to the Music Effect/Visual Effect separation, and also to return the brass ensemble caption. However, these were voted down by the body.