BG984

At DCI prelims in 1972, the Cadets received 1.8 in penalties (largest of all corps in prelims), and it moved them from 10th to 13th and out of finals. Does anyone know what the penalties were for??

It will be interesting to see the results..........I will say that I am amazed at how every year it seems people manage to fill it out, and not just finalists, either. I can't help think that the fees, plus just the cost getting to and from camps, must keep some away. That said, I live in Fla., and I believe there are near record college spring break crowds in many areas in the state; I have no idea where they are coming up with the money, especially with college costs being very high these days.

IMO, it has gotten to the point that the needle has shifted too far toward visual, and music is secondary. The day has arrived when a corps that is 4th or even 5th musically can win. I believe 4th has happened....for sure in a prelim round, and perhaps finals............for those in love with the visual products these days, and the secondary emphasis on music (ie visually driven shows....not unlike WGI) these are good times for them...........it really could be called "WGI Outdoor", and there are folks that are fine with that........in that regard, I am a dinosaur...........that show 41 years ago had plenty of visual things happening.......yet the musical product, IMO, was pretty wonderful standing still as well........

Man, I never compared things to color pre days.........the post that I did was actually a response to someone talking about the old days and results controversies.....and I posted one that showed the front page of a drum corps paper where two major championships (junior/senior) were protested on the same weekend.......I wasn't there, I was 9 years old............I was on a staff that revolutionized visual and won DCI......but we still played our tails off, with great music written by one of the best hall of famers of all time. So, you are trying to paint me into a very old dyno with absolutely no info...not good. I judged last year. I know corps are different. All I am saying is that in a 6 year period, 1994-2000, all music emphasis in the scoring was eliminated. Not 50 years ago....24 years ago. I did look at the current GE sheets, and audience engagement is on them (though I honestly believe there are some judging the caption who do not consider that at all, and I also find the term "engagement" vague and open to whatever interpretation they want). By the way, that show that we did 41 years ago was pretty good...........I think..............ironically 41 wins and one loss that season.....My initial post was simply 100% factual, showing how music scoring emphasis went from a 30% advantage to none in a 6 year time frame..........yes, I have feelings/opinions about that, as do many other people......for those who feel the shift toward visual and away from music is a good one, they are entitled to that opinion.

1966 was pretty wild (I was only 9 and not following, but this was legendary stuff) https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1681203072683803&set=pcb.3827894180866047

Sorry, but I am not hung up on "just 16 years ago"....I am not going to write a big thing, but in effect, especially those judges with visual/guard backgrounds, have given many questionable results over the years. I never stated that I think GE should simply be a "crowd o meter" of audience reaction........that said, if the judges are going to be oblivious to audience reaction and only respond to what they like as an individual, then they need to rename the caption, or it should not even be scored/utilized any more. The main just of my article (which has pretty much been left alone, because the numbers speak for themselves) is that in a 6 year time frame, the 30% scoring edge in music was whittled to zero. As I and others have pointed out, these things had to be voted on and approved by the directors. Do we have better shows as a result of these changes? Some will say yes, some will say no.......but the move away from musical emphasis is undeniable.

I still see it happening.....especially those judging GE who have largely visual/guard expertise...........

If you think that all of today's arranging is "musical", then we will definitely agree to disagree.....and it is not every group, but certainly a majority of them would fit the description accurately, IMO......I don't blame the kids; they play what is given to them to the best of their ability.........and many arrangers are trying to "keep up with the Jones'".....however, I think my description of many (not all) of the percussion and brass books, sadly, is accurate.....just my opinion...........

2008 was probably the best example I can give........yes a bit further back, but one of the most blatant examples.....if I am wrong, watch the videos.........zero comparison between response for the top 2 corps, yet the one that received much, much less audience response actually won the caption, albeit by .05. Perhaps "golf applause" was a harsh term........still, there have been times where a corps clearly won over the audience more than the others, yet was "shunned" by the effect judges..........you have already stated that you do not believe audience response should be a factor at all, so on that point, we can agree to disagree.

and I wish that they did...........

Then there should not be an effect caption, or it should be called "judge effect", as the audience reaction to the program is meaningless.....

Not exactly, but I do feel that audience response (and it is on the current sheets as "engagement") should be considered when judging effect...........I think that if a corps "brings the house down" at the end, with multiple standing ovations during their program, and another gets "golf applause", and a politely forced standing ovation only at the end, that perhaps the second group should not win effect..............

That wasn't the only question that went unanswered that week......there were just 3 of us.......2 music, and one visual..........yet we spent around 38 hours with "visual gurus" and just 2 hours with music people..........case closed.....

I actually caused a bit of a stir at a judge's conference. The visual "guru" running things stated, "the judge must discern and determine what is "truly effective"". My hand went up..."yes"......"truly effective.....to WHOM.....to me as a judge, or to the thousands of paid fans in the stands". There was silence in the room, and the "guru" changed the subject within seconds.......

I can tell you for certain, that one of them, still around, was almost single-handedly responsible for the push for a singular "GE caption", removing GE Music/GE Visual as separate entities.