Jeff Ream
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Posts posted by Jeff Ream
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Just now, BG984 said:
IMO, it has gotten to the point that the needle has shifted too far toward visual, and music is secondary. The day has arrived when a corps that is 4th or even 5th musically can win. I believe 4th has happened....for sure in a prelim round, and perhaps finals............for those in love with the visual products these days, and the secondary emphasis on music (ie visually driven shows....not unlike WGI) these are good times for them...........it really could be called "WGI Outdoor", and there are folks that are fine with that........in that regard, I am a dinosaur...........that show 41 years ago had plenty of visual things happening.......yet the musical product, IMO, was pretty wonderful standing still as well........
i don't disagree visual sometimes gets too much emphasis, but it's not a universal thing. and winners have always had some captions lower than the top, and some caption winners have not been at the top. look at Cavies percussion. the issue is more a product of how the current system is set up for the numbers. the 3 performance captions for music and visual averaged together now, and GE still at 40% where it's been for a while. but without todays system, guard would still be an afterthought. but GE has been calling the show for a long time...in fact if not for music and music effect, BD wins in 2008. Bloo probably loses in 16. but performance pcations, not effect is what kept Crown in 15 and Bloo in 19 from winning.
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13 minutes ago, BigW said:
True. Bad playing didn't help. Nope, nope nope. In one area near us, folks think that they need to play like their state's university with 350 members droning away when they have 25-60 kids... You know the rubrics. Droning Loud and Constant ain't gonna generate effect on any sheet I know of. Might get a 90k home football crowd jacked up... but a different situation.
way too many small groups design like they're huge. that issue is not just a regional thing
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5 hours ago, greg_orangecounty said:
And you can tell. It's as if the judging panel on Dancing with the Stars has taken over.
no because the Carolton would be being performed
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16 hours ago, BG984 said:
Man, I never compared things to color pre days.........the post that I did was actually a response to someone talking about the old days and results controversies.....and I posted one that showed the front page of a drum corps paper where two major championships (junior/senior) were protested on the same weekend.......I wasn't there, I was 9 years old............I was on a staff that revolutionized visual and won DCI......but we still played our tails off, with great music written by one of the best hall of famers of all time. So, you are trying to paint me into a very old dyno with absolutely no info...not good. I judged last year. I know corps are different. All I am saying is that in a 6 year period, 1994-2000, all music emphasis in the scoring was eliminated. Not 50 years ago....24 years ago. I did look at the current GE sheets, and audience engagement is on them (though I honestly believe there are some judging the caption who do not consider that at all, and I also find the term "engagement" vague and open to whatever interpretation they want). By the way, that show that we did 41 years ago was pretty good...........I think..............ironically 41 wins and one loss that season.....My initial post was simply 100% factual, showing how music scoring emphasis went from a 30% advantage to none in a 6 year time frame..........yes, I have feelings/opinions about that, as do many other people......for those who feel the shift toward visual and away from music is a good one, they are entitled to that opinion.
i never once called you old or dino, i compared your views of todays activity of how it was in the past. the game has changed. drum corps judging stayed stagnant for what it looked at for decades, and then boom...everything opened up. and because the rules changed and allowed more, visual had the most room to grow to where it became of equal importance. But even as visual changed, GE has always been about a marriage of visual and music. and it's never been a clap sheet. But the emphasis had to change because visual became more important. IMO visual was not enough of a scoring emphasis for too long, and this is a drummer stating that fact. because if it had the emphasis it deserved, 41 years ago you would have destroyed everyone. it wouldn't even have been close.
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4 hours ago, LabMaster said:
The number of “openings” is also for how many corps? 12? 15? 25? Do the numbers include World and Open classes? On a per corps basis, the numbers don’t seem exceptionally high. And for brass, that’s usually the highest member counts anyway.
4 hours ago, LabMaster said:The number of “openings” is also for how many corps? 12? 15? 25? Do the numbers include World and Open classes? On a per corps basis, the numbers don’t seem exceptionally high. And for brass, that’s usually the highest member counts anyway.
i believe it counts World, Open and now all age
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33 minutes ago, Chief Guns said:
I don't remember it getting any love LMAO.
Besides during that 2011 season, I was too busy protecting the western front for us BD fans ensuring we didn't get out-flanked by the ABBD crowd lol. So you may be correct.
the music chosen wasn't exactly stuff i'd choose to listen to, but it was presented in a more flowing way...like complete thoughts/passages than they had done since Godfather, and they did it in a way that got some old school BD vibe. but the whole building of the house led to a zillion Extreme Home makeover okes ( probably half by me) and it made everything look way too cluttered.
and that Cadets that summer had Jeff's masterpiece visually and Crown channeled their inner ELP had shows more loved to the general populace. but i don't remember nearly as much dislike as for the 3 years prior and 2 after
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4 hours ago, BG984 said:
Sorry, but I am not hung up on "just 16 years ago"....I am not going to write a big thing, but in effect, especially those judges with visual/guard backgrounds, have given many questionable results over the years. I never stated that I think GE should simply be a "crowd o meter" of audience reaction........that said, if the judges are going to be oblivious to audience reaction and only respond to what they like as an individual, then they need to rename the caption, or it should not even be scored/utilized any more. The main just of my article (which has pretty much been left alone, because the numbers speak for themselves) is that in a 6 year time frame, the 30% scoring edge in music was whittled to zero. As I and others have pointed out, these things had to be voted on and approved by the directors. Do we have better shows as a result of these changes? Some will say yes, some will say no.......but the move away from musical emphasis is undeniable.
Ge has never been and never will be a what the fans want sheet. have you even seen recent versions of the sheet? the more you reply the more its apparent you feel effect is to match what you consider popular, and that isn't how GE has ever been. yes the activity has slowly moved away from music being the overhwelming focus because the activity has eveolved drastically visually. i'm sorry you want to compare scores from the days of color pre, squads, guideons etc to where the activity is today and your article is all abount IMO a false narrative trying to compare two things that are very different as if they're to be on the same level. they aren't drum corps today is very different from drum corps in 1972, and a large reason for that is how much the visual side of the game has changed. And quite frankly, elevator drill and matching pictures stopped being effective 40 years ago.
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5 hours ago, Chief Guns said:
That is a fact. 2011 is gets a lot of love on this forum over the last several years. But during that 2011 season.......wow, the hatred was real.
i thought it always got musical love. not so much visual
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4 hours ago, Chief Guns said:
We (In General) need to keep it real. We say we want chaos in the numbers/placements/scores. But when it happens, we lose our freaking minds and it's Armageddon in this forum. We have had some regionals over the last few seasons where numbers were all over the place, and we saw people flipping out and calling out judges for their favorite corps finishing let's say 3rd overall, but 8th in a particular caption/subcaption for an example.
So basically, what we as fans are saying is............."Give us the scoring chaos with numbers and placements being topsy turvy................as long it doesn't happen to and/or affect the corps that I root for."
this
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6 hours ago, Onionhead2 said:
The changes made 2014, could they be accredited with the Blue Coats overtaking the Cadets at finals ?
entirely possible it was a factor
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6 hours ago, BigW said:
Thank you, Jeff. I'll share experience I've had at least twice. Don't know if you or your spouse have had this one:
Is flipping on blinking LED vests while honking and droning inanely away while stumblebumming around while the band moms scream like crazy "effect"? Bad effect, maybe. It certainly was unforgettable; I'll give it that...
it can be good or bad effect. theres a ton of factors that goes into it, so i can't just throw an opinion here based on that.
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4 hours ago, Chief Guns said:
That's fair. But let me ask you this. Do you think BD fatigue at the very least plays a factor in the hatred they receive?
Example..........
In an alternate universe, let's say BD has zero titles. Then going into 2010 they are in the running to win their first title ever, and they do the "Thru A Glass Darkly" show.
With no titles or BD dominance to speak of, do you think the 2010 show would be better received? Or do you think it gets the same exact response?
some. but Cavies fatigue in the 00's and even Cadets fatigue in the 80's were tempered by the shows mostly well received.
and no i dont think 2010 would have been better received in any shape or form as at that point, BD only had their 3rd in 4 years
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1 hour ago, Chief Guns said:
Spot on Jeff.
Example.....1999. Finals in Madison Wisconsin.
Scouts had a PHENOMENAL show that deserved and earned every applause it got. But you can tell they was feeding off homefield advantage, and they should have. They got loudest ovation of the night. So does that mean that they should have beaten BD/SCV? Or finished in front of the Cadets or Cavies? No they shouldn't have.
And that's not me bashing the Scouts for all the Madison fans out there. Jesus Christ Superstar is one of my top ten favorite shows of all time.
Amen! I was there, and the crowd was the proverbial Rondo quote. But they weren't top 5, and i too love this show and am looking forward to the social media barrage of videos that happens at this time of year
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3 hours ago, BG984 said:
I still see it happening.....especially those judging GE who have largely visual/guard expertise...........
it happens, but it's not the driving force anymore.
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38 minutes ago, Chief Guns said:
BD fatigue is probably top five biggest reasons for the hatred they receive.
And it's not a BD thing, it's anyone who has figured out the championship formula to consistently stay on top.
Society in general doesn't like dynasties...........unless it's the team/corps/player you root for lol.
I remember after the 2006 season, and hearing some people groaning about the Cavies winning again and wanting to see a new winner. Now it was nowhere near BD level of hate, not even in the same realm, but some were talking.
that and from 08-13 the shows were generally unpopular
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48 minutes ago, musicteacher said:
Years ago I taught a corps that received a thunderous reception, complete with a stating O from a filled stadium. One judge's response, "This is not General Effect." Post-Cesario this doesn't happen.
exactly. the intellectual third of the triad is no longer dominating over the other 2/3's of the triad
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13 hours ago, BG984 said:
and I wish that they did...........
13 hours ago, BG984 said:and I wish that they did...........
i do believe they are more than they were say 10 years ago. a lot of the things Cesario said on that day back in 09 i think was stuff he said when he started his project with DCI a decade ago. think about this....the year that whole initiative started, yeah BD won, but with their most loved show since probably 1996! And since that philosophy shift started, there's yet to be a yawner champion. Sure a few close shows that may be controversial, but in both cases effect didn't really call the show. visual performance captions did ( thinking of 15 and 19)
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13 hours ago, BG984 said:
Not exactly, but I do feel that audience response (and it is on the current sheets as "engagement") should be considered when judging effect...........I think that if a corps "brings the house down" at the end, with multiple standing ovations during their program, and another gets "golf applause", and a politely forced standing ovation only at the end, that perhaps the second group should not win effect..............
engagement tho isn't as cut and dried as one thinks. geography can play a part. at say Crowns home show are the fans going to be more engaged for the hometown team? Sure! Should the judges solely feed off of applause? Nope. remember bringing the house down may not be universal at every stadium. Homerism is real
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8 hours ago, BG984 said:
I actually caused a bit of a stir at a judge's conference. The visual "guru" running things stated, "the judge must discern and determine what is "truly effective"". My hand went up..."yes"......"truly effective.....to WHOM.....to me as a judge, or to the thousands of paid fans in the stands". There was silence in the room, and the "guru" changed the subject within seconds.......
i asked that at a cinic Cesario was running. his reply was "the judge needs to react like a fan"
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19 hours ago, BG984 said:
I was talking semifinals, and Cadets did indeed win both brass and percussion........I never discussed visual, but they are the first to ever win brass and percussion at a DCI world championship prelims/finals show and not win....and in fact 4th as well, not even placing.....agreed about some of the visual issues (agree that black was a mistake)....but they had much demand on the fly.....the emphasis, for a long time now, is on the perceived quality of the visual product....
actually effect period. and Rondo called that out 30 years ago
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oh that drum break.
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On 3/22/2024 at 11:04 AM, lawdn said:
You weren’t in Indy in 2013 IIRC. My first finals experience. I was pretty stunned by the dislike for BD, but I guess it was manifested by silence instead of booing so that’s a win for civility? Of course, a dark, edgy, jazz-based show performed at a high level was right up my alley even if it had some clear design flaws.There were a number of shows I didn’t care for that year but I was jazzed to be there and stood and cheered after every show. To each their own. I do geek out on trying to understand and embrace the concept of each show on its own terms. I almost always get there but not always.
And both you and @Chief Guns are cool 😎, but he is a phenomenon of cool 😂
no i wasn't. the dome left me very displeased with the sound, plus we had a baby in 2012, so hopping off to finals wasn't a way to keep family tensions in check. thought about it during teething tho LOL!
however my take in 13 seeing them in Allentown was more people pulling for Crown and honestly just wanting someone new.
and i'm 90 BD cool.
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6 hours ago, Chief Guns said:
Oh my comment was speaking in general, not at anyone specific. You are one of my favorite people on this forum Jeff. All love here.
but i wasn't alone. I remember in 2010, more people than i ever remember leaving before the victory run. Sure, BD perfofmed great. But people didn't like the show.
and you're pretty cool too!
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4 hours ago, JimF-LowBari said:
Then we have the issue of does DCIs goals match the corps goals. And how close do the individual corps goals match each other.
Some corps goals, if realistic just might be “freaking survive until next year”. (Sounds familiar to me)here's the thing, and it may ruffle some feathers....
BITD scores still mattered. think the Warren Cavies, the Royal Airs and Kilties in the 60's didn't go all out to win? or Garfield, Blessed Sac, Boston, St Kevins? Sure they did.
but the pool they recruited from was different then. As were the shows. Few in corps back then went on to be HS or college band directors. those entities and drum corps were in very different camps. But as time went on, and the two camps started getting closer together and personel crossed back and forth, the recruiting pool changed, and the number of corps shrank for all of the litany of reasons discussed/debated/argued about on here, with both fatcs, opinion, and rose colred bifocals.
and surviving until next year has long been a thing in drum corps. like since day 2. So while these are all good points to bring up in relation to this topic, it's not like these two things are only more recent developments. They've been around forever.
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questionably high amount of openings
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Sound sport too I saw elsewhere