HoltonH178

Marching bands have done so much more creatively in the last 10 years than drum corps have, and part of that has been introducing new instruments and amps. Mic'd oboes and bassoons, instrumental pit amplification, vocal usage for over 15 years, electronics...there was a time when none of this was on the field whatsoever, and marching bands pioneered the endeavor. The marching band world has flourished and grown at a rate that is exponential in comparison to DCI's last 10 years...primarily because DCI is supported by people who would rather make sure that kids are doing a certain thing on the field than offer a high-quality education and experience to a larger, more professional base of students. If we improve the educational experience, allow for a huge number of students to more easily participate, then we will have more members who are the main recruiters for attendance at shows and camps. If we remain committed to our goal of offering the touring life to as many who seek it as possible while maintaining professional quality and creativity, then I believe drum corps' stagnation in the recent past (particularly creatively and financially) will be very much alleviated. This really isn't a fair comparison, and everyone knows it, which is why I think anti-WW people are so keen on using it. DCI has already established itself as the primary market for premium marching in our music community, and has professional credentials that go beyond what any start-up might possibly be able to achieve. It's said every day on these forums that we exist in a "niche," and DCI already serves that niche at a high percentage, especially professionally, where nearly everyone who's anyone in marching already works for DCI in some capacity. Furthermore, the summer band programs that have existed in this country were far more comparable to small drum corps circuits such as DCM than an international operation such as DCI. They didn't fail because of what was on the field; they failed because DCI already has all of the history and all of the market that there is to be had in our realm. What's more, I would argue that creating a separate circuit in that manner is, in the long-term, damaging to our activity as a whole (that is, marching, which is all nearly the same thing done differently). This isn't the way to go about making our activity better, and everyone knows it. The experience becomes greater by adding woodwinds because, first, the lessons learned are much more applicable to the concert season, which should be any wind musician's focus, professional or otherwise. Second, it opens it to more talented and dedicated people to participate, and that adds to DCI's professional network post-corps as well as increasing revenues, involved patrons, and attendance. Like it or not, DCI needs professional musicians and educators in order to survive and be respected in its field. These people have the potential to bring in some of the best and brightest in order to ensure creative success and the highest levels of performance. Hindering their development and insulting them for their willingness to dedicate themselves for the activity is short-sighted at best. We are the future. I hope you don't mind me asking, but would you mind telling me where you went to HS and when? I believe you were in marching band. I just sincerely doubt that your band program is much like that which you want to avoid seeming like--that is, a top-notch BOA group--and that's why I consider your argument that drum corps and fall marching band would be the same thing to be invalid. The full experience has about 0.2% to do with the music/instrument that you play--unless it affects you negatively. It's drum corps' policy to be so inflexible regarding instrumentation that I can't even play my instrument because of the way the bell faces. I stay because I love the experience of marching and believe it has a very positive role to play in people's lives. What's really so wrong with wanting that experience to be even more positive to professionals who will make huge contributions to the activity in the future? Most individuals do not spend thousands on tickets, CDs, and DVDs, period. Maybe over an expanse of many, many years, but this is still not the same kind of financial contribution as actually participating, recruiting, and paying into the activity. Again, people spend thousands to come and watch, but that money doesn't largely go into the activity, it goes to American Airlines and La Quinta. Therefore, largely expendable. Those who are stubborn enough to stop supporting DCI because of WWs will be replaced by the networks brought in by woodwind players, and even then, I am willing to bet that most of this would be temporary--I really do believe that once DCI added WWs, eventually everyone would realize how little it affected the actual performances, and come back around. But maybe I am placing to much faith in the hearts of our FMMs. All I am saying is that it is possible for DCI not to enforce particular instrumentation through judging. Personally, I don't approve--it's a restriction on creative freedom. If a hornline could come out and put on a great, creative, innovative show on G bugles, with no WWs and no amplification, then by all means they should go for it and DCI should judge them on the merits of their performance and design. I don't like you insinuating that it is not possible for DCI to do whatever it pleases, including having a different take on judging than they have in the past in regard to rule changes. Oh, and this way will happen one day. Mark my words. DCI needs professionals, and shlould support their growth as much as possible in order to maintain their favor. Sorry that comes across as "complaining" to you, I just call it common sense.

Again...yet again...drum corps doesn't serve that purpose anymore. HS programs do, and do a better job than corps ever did. I swear to God I'm just a broken fricken' record here...

:dancin: :fight:

It's not me saying this, but thanks for trying to mock me... We're talking about growing our activity, correct? I'm explaining why people who would otherwise participate, don't. You really don't have much relevant to say, do you?

"Drum corps...our way or no way." Great business model there. Sure you'll promote the growth of the activity that way, chum.

You are the only person I know who gets off taking apart posts with thousands of characters, and sniping at people with one-line quibbles. Life much?

It is a singular, minor, restraining, un-defining difference, unimportant to all but the most stubborn and blind (who just happen to be in extra-strong concentration on DCP), and I'm really tired of bothering with people who just can't tolerate change or growth. Your average person on the street, the ones who apparently we have completely forsaken and will never get into drum corps, ever, does not know the difference between woodwinds and brass and wouldn't understand why DCI is brass-only without an explanation. The experience for the marching members, "the kids," as we repeat over and over being the focus of our activity, would be greater with woodwinds (more over, legalizing all instrumentation--including strings! omgz!) added. Simply put, more people would be able to play, serious musicians will be more able to participate without being set back professionally, and that is a good thing. Sorry to burst your bubble, but your ways hold me back as a drum corps student. Times change. Things change. Including drum corps and marching band. Get. Over. IT. Unfortunately, those many who disagree seem to think they're more important than everyone else involved in this activity, including those who actively invest thousands of hours and dollars into it. Hm. This had nothing to do with what I was talking about. If you're going to cherry-pick my posts from conversations with other people and harass me about them, then at least talk about things relevant to the original post. I've marched BOA GN finals and DCI World Class finals. DCI and marching band will always be two unique entities. You are not even qualified to claim to know otherwise, because you clearly did not have the kind of experience that is offered to students today in BOA. End of discussion. One far more than the other, and even those bitter alumni who spend a year or two away from finals because they're too busy having their panties in a twist about the instruments we play will (hopefully) come around because the experience for the kids will have improved and maintained all of the best elements from when they were members. If not, then I stick by my original statement of "good riddance." Neither do dinosaurs, as evidenced by this thread. Pretending like it's 1972 does no one any good. Do those thousands of dollars go into the activity? No, they go to priceline.com, Continental Airlines, and the Hilton Company. Thanks for contributing to the American economy!...not so much drum corps. That's right, DCI is NOT capable of doing things differently than they've done before! You heard it here, folks! Oh, wait...isn't that what you're all so ###### off about? I do take the experience, and I would appreciate not being criticized for my choice to dedicate myself to the activity and its promotion in spite of its (currently) detrimental effect to my professional career. Most people would probably think that a good thing, but this IS DCP, where anyone who thinks differently is Satan.

Boy, it won't be long before we traditionalize ourselves right out of existence if we can't even change where we put the cases in drum corps...what's more, woodwind cases are a lot less of a burden to move than brass cases. I don't see how this would really significantly affect things.

I really don't see how it could be "not feasible"--there are roofs everywhere, even at show sites. Second, telling the woodwind players to put their instruments in their cases takes all of 15 seconds, and hardly qualifies as an interruption--at the very least, certainly no more than a water break. There are ways to clean the woodwinds, the same way that we clean the brass valves when they get full of dust. I'd assume that we'd supply the horns the same way we do with the brass, if for nothing else so that everyone's playing on the same kind of flute/clarinet/saxophone...and for a good deal cheaper, I might add, than we equip our brass lines. Keep the cases near you at all times during rehearsals, and you won't be caught in more than 30 seconds of downpour.

Seems like a perfect response to the idea that music education is useless to me.

It rains. The woodwinds go in the cases. If they get wet at all, leave the cases open while they dry. Obviously, don't use them during exceptionally dusty rehearsals. Part of professionalism is learning to overcome obstacles. I'm sure they'll survive without the rehearsal time. EDIT: What's more, I've marched with woodwinds, 27+ hours a week of rehearsal, outside in Michigan Fall/Winter weather, which is worse than anything tour could ever muster. Never had a single pad job or cracked clarinet.

They can. They don't, because they don't feel like competing for spots at a disadvantage...which I've already stated in this thread 6 times.

I have dedicated myself and I have succeeded and others have as well. But unlike many of you, I personally knew many woodwind musicians coming out of high school who wanted to march corps but didn't because they couldn't march on their primary instrument. I swear to God, I think I'll die when DCP finally STOPS being about putting words in others' mouths.

And that's why we still have Open Class, Senior Corps, etc. ... Don't pretend like every local corps could offer as good of an experience as the one next door. Even in World Class, we have groups like The Cavaliers, and we have groups like Pioneer. Disparity exists in every single arena; not just band. Music programs are a lot less likely to be cut than a corps is to fold.

THANK YOU. Why is this so wrong?

Um, sorry, but I'll happily switch over to providing positive experiences to the next generation of youth once I age out, instead of getting caught up in "tradition" for tradition's sake, half-###ed supporting the activity, and #####ing on the internet. Ah, selfishness...gotta love them 'Boomers.' I'm done with this conversation.

Because I love the activity (marching) and the experience...and my entire argument has been about opening the opportunity to experience touring to more people. And with all due respect, the horn is an instrument that requires delicate, developed muscle control on a level beyond that of most other instruments. 3 months is a long time to let that deteriorate.

You are completely missing my points here... No, a DCI audience is not the same thing as a BOA audience. I am aware. I don't know how many times I have to tell this to different people, but whatever. The PRODUCT is NOT about the INSTRUMENTATION. Let me say IT AGAIN. THE PRODUCT IS NOT THE INSTRUMENTATION. The product is a summer tour experience, and that's why I pay thousands into this activity and you pay $20 for a show. The secondary product, after that, is the performances, which still IS NOT THE INSTRUMENTATION. I do not want to take away tubas and add in flutes, I don't know where you're getting that from. I'd much rather add to the corps, because as you just stated, to do otherwise would be pointless. We do not have the talent, exposure, or interest to expand hornlines successfully with brass the way we could with woodwinds. I'm not saying take away any of the horns, and I never have. I'm not talking about parents. More than my parents came to see me when I was on tour. Friends, distant relatives, professional acquaintances--I asked just about everyone who would even consider it to come out and see me at a show. "Other people" made up a much larger contingent of the people I've gotten out to shows than my parents, thank you very much. And no, I'm not talking about having a 250-member corps so I can have flutes. (What is it that makes flutes especially easy to make fun of for you, by the way? Too feminine for you, Mr. Butch?) If we could support 250-member corps without them, I don't think I'd be as in favor of adding them. DCI attracts audiences because it sets the standard in the marching world, not because of brass-only hornlines. That is, frankly, a ridiculous assumption. Adding clarinet and flute players is not going to make it stop being "something cool," especially for those who are on a first viewing. In fact, I hope one day people are confused as to why DCI used to be brass-only when getting into the activity. If we'd lose people because of woodwinds, then I say "good riddance." We need people who are dedicated to benefiting our youth--not people who pay $20 for one ticket and then go all over the internet and complain. We've got more than enough of those, thank you very much. I would hardly call Bb horns, amplification, or vocals as significant a change as adding woodwinds and a significant number of marching members to a corps. Because of the operational differences between a drum corps and a marching band, and the difference in the level of quality between a marching band and a drum corps. Individual organizations can choose to remain all-brass if they so desire. I'm not in favor of passing a law requiring woodwind usage; just legalizing it.

Well then, to be honest, I don't think there is a fair comparison to be made between BOA GN and a DCI event.

Because they both cater to the same educational field.

Thank God we've got you, Boo. Scary to think what this board might be like with misinformation going around completely unmitigated.

I want drum corps to be an idiom that is musically respected, God forbid that happen. College professors and band teachers shouldn't lament their students going off to march, they should know that those students will get a first-rate education, intensive training, and come back better prepared for the concert season. Moreover, adding woodwinds and proper instrumentation isn't about "universal acceptance," it's about improving and sustaining our activity. It's not like Harvard is having a shortage of applicants and having to close down programs because they can't get enough warm bodies...

Well, that's your choice, I suppose...it's hard for me not to associate one with the other, especially when the same people are involved in the two fields. Most of the instructors for drum corps also teach the same techniques to high school programs--Carolina Crown at Avon HS in IN, for a long time the Boston Crusaders at Tarpon Springs HS in FL, The Cavaliers at Carmel HS in IN, the Crossmen at Ronald Reagan HS in TX, etc. etc. Most members learned how to march, or spin, or play marimba in their high school marching bands, and most of them heard about drum corps because they were in their high school marching bands. You'd feel differently if you'd marched. To those who know, there is no explanation needed...for those who don't, there is no explanation possible.

You were, and those of you who chose to do that deserve commendation for your willingness to meet DCI halfway...I just don't think you should have to. And I'm sorry, but I don't come back from drum corps even as good as the other college music majors on horn at my university, let alone the country...when aspiring to reach a professional level of performance on your primary instrument, as I am, drum corps can be a considerable yearly obstacle when your primary instrument is not part of the instrumentation. If your experience has been different, that's fantastic...but I still have to beg to differ.

Probably lower. But I doubt it was much lower than Open Class, which is a more fair comparison. And a larger crowd.