HoltonH178

Woo-Hoo! I couldn't be happier to hear this! I was just hoping for a decent-size show, not even necessarily an all-out regional...but it's great news because a show this size attracts a lot more people. I'm really quite excited. Orlando should be an amazing home show for me this year .

I'd say they stay far away from the discussion, and don't seem to actively contribute to the consensus on this board. There's a big difference between that versus reading and occasionally posting. The difference here is that you believe keeping tradition is worth the sacrifice of DCI being less musically congruent with other activities, and I do not. I believe that DCI would greatly benefit from the change, continually gaining more patrons as time goes on. But they always have the option to, and have changed over time. It's kind of interesting that no matter whether there's hardly and music majors in drum corps or drum corps is chock full of them, it's an argument for not having woodwinds. There are more than 100 music majors at my university this year, and out of them, three have marched corps. There's plenty more to be had, and they will go on to do some of the most good for the activity. Well I guess we finally found something to agree on then . Like I've said before, I'd like to think that the alumni would always stick by DCI so long as it continues to be the single largest provider of the drum corps experience to the next generation, and support it for the lessons it instills in our youth. This might be wishful thinking...but it is certainly my approach.

You know, I'm 100% sure that more kids don't play woodwinds than do, too. But, in order to be a member of a World Class corps, it is not recommended that you attempt to join with absolutely no prior musical or marching experience whatsoever. Drum corps targets kids with musical training. Of those with both musical training and interest who do not participate, woodwind players are by far the largest contingent. I have a lot of respect and infinite thanks for the alumni involved in this activity, but sometimes I wish they would give my generation a little more leeway when it comes to what happens on the field. That's really all. I don't want to write them off, I don't want to see them stop supporting the activity. In fact, alumni who pay into DCI's programs qualify as some of the most valuable patrons of our activity today. But there is an important thing which they need to be conscious of: our country is changing, our society is changing, and our activity is changing. The important part of corps, our raison d'etre, is to offer the experience and lessons of our activity to the next generation, even in any medium. Public schools now carry much of the same cause, and do a great job of it, as well. Drum corps has become the premium by comparison. If there are changes we can make so that a larger, more secure population supports drum corps, the tour experience, and "pays it forward," then I believe these are changes worth pursuing. It's not fair for me to assume that the alumni will always be involved, woodwinds or no woodwinds...but I think that, for the sake of the next generation, you ought to. The presence of the alumni is always appreciated.

Hehe, I guess that's what I get for deciding to un-block . Listen, I'm really not here to whine. It doesn't sound like whining to me. It sounds like making sure that drum corps has a place to be as successful as it can be, and that it still exists in the future. If you disagree, that's okay, but I'd like to be characterized for my true intentions.

I really don't think that many woodwinds are needed. I wouldn't add more than 40 woodwinds in the first year. If they can be heard in softer moments, have a feature or two (more then likely unmic'd; just orchestrate sparingly), etc. I think they'll serve their purpose without having to drastically change the make-up of what's on the field. What the hornline does when they don't play. If you feel like that person wouldn't be a benefit to the activity if they had a direct avenue to participate, because of whatever circumstances they might have had prior, then this is just a point where you and I are going to disagree. I'd agree if I'd known about DCI when I was picking out which instrument I played. It would be great if such information were readily available, but as is such in most of life, we have to go off of our personal experiences. There are a few events, like parades and community events, where I see drum corps fans being made out of those who might not have much experience in the activity otherwise, but it just seems to me that this is so much less of a hook than personal involvement or a relation to someone who is personally involved. Seeing a corps on the cheap against the background of other entertainment is different than driving to a competition, paying for a fairly pricey ticket, and spending the whole time watching just drum corps. I think it takes a little more than that to attract the people whose following will make a difference.

Several are, and even more read it...but I couldn't really describe most of them as being largely active posters on DCP. String quartets and choirs use the same techniques as their professional, larger ensemble counterparts and play on the same instruments as professional orchestras. If fife and drum corps had an organization in this country that operated like DCI, in that it had a primary governing body which regulated which instruments can and cannot be used, and the activity had evolved to the point that ours has, I'd be making the same arguments for instrument legalization. None of the ensembles mentioned are subject to competitive scoring, professional institutionalization, or numerated adjudication the same way that DCI is. If any of them individually wanted to change anything about their performances, they could, and professional performers take on roles in many different ensembles that utilize similar techniques. This allows for universal transference of abilities, networks, and creativity that partly fuels the successes of other industries and organizations. The largest pool of potential members, attendees, and future employees, volunteers, donors, parents of CMMs, and sponsors for drum and bugle corps is, currently, woodwind/brasswind students. I feel like the biggest reason that my perspective on drum and bugle corps is different is because I was introduced to it through my band program at high school, and I (personally) can't imagine any other way that I would've been exposed to the activity or given the tools needed to participate in it. The music education programs in this country are rooted in wind instruction, because that is the largest program utilized in public schools, and woodwinds add to that in a way no demographic can. Each professional involved in the activity is an asset because we are increasingly put in the role of creating a premium product and offering a premium experience. As the prices of corps participation increases, the value of the experience must also increase. By creating a larger professional network, via the addition of highly trained high school and university level musicians (and future band directors, professors, professional performers/designers, recruiters and staffers) we help to ensure the survival and growth of drum corps. In 20-30 years, the people marching within a few years will largely be the people who drive this activity. When considering ways to promote the growth and well being of drum corps, they must be considered.

Ah, yes, almost every corps has at least a few individuals who started on WWs...certainly not half the hornline, or the kind of ratios you'd have with full instrumentation...but were they first-time woodwind players on brass instruments, or had they marched corps at a younger age? Especially in the cases of groups like The Cadets, The Cavaliers, BD or PR?

All due respect, this has never been my experience, anywhere where I have taught, marched, or witnessed instruction. Granted, the HS I marched in scored higher visually than musically; however, the program I now teach scores higher musically than visually. Woodwind musicians would be able to try out competitively for the top corps, which currently as instrument switchers, they do not. I wish the next show were closer, so that I could...it's just that I honestly have never met an individual interested in corps without either a background in instrumental music or color guard, or a family member/friend with said background. I guess this could just be my personal experience, but there it is. Yes. Marching bands are made up of minors. Drum corps are made up of dedicated performers of any age 14-21.

Taught band, marched band, marched corps. Haven't taught corps.

Volunteers make so much of what we do possible. In my eyes, there are no words fully appropriate for the thanks they deserve.

I'm fully aware of what transpired, and I must confess that I have made a lot of errors in this thread. There has been many a time when I have been warned of the negative sides to DCP, and I have found them to be relentlessly true. I will not surrender on my beliefs; I believe in universal instrumentation in drum corps as a benefit to the activity in the future. The activity is not yet ready for it, and thus, the issue is still a non-starter, regardless of how many people can gang up on me in a thread. I let myself get carried away with the personal nature of this thread, and for that I apologize. We are all dedicated to this activity and its continuance and success. I support having G horns in drum corps; I support corps that wish to play acoustic-only. It would not be my personal choice, I think that if a corps is capable of supporting it financially and putting on a crowd-pleasing show, then they by all means should stick to the design elements that they feel are appropriate. I also believe that those drum corps that seek to offer a place for all talented players, of which there are more than none, should also have that option. Change is good for drum corps and also difficult to implement. I alone do not pretend to have all the solutions; after all, I am young. None of us are perfect, but I believe that a voice which has seen the progress in other marching activities and can bring that to drum corps is one with at least some value. I'll be done with this thread.

Well, I think someone like him is entitled to be a jackass about something like that. Woodwind techniques, yeah, I still haven't taken it. That's why I'm still in school :). Thanks! Now I know why I'm an ###. Just for reference, too, I even asked a picc player in my band this year if it was them squeaking. (Piccs don't squeak.) I've got a ways to go as far as woodwinds are concerned, yet.

The woodwinds aren't as loud as the brass to begin with, and they point directly away from where the audience sits. I really don't understand, hopefully someone else can tell me I guess...but if you don't feel the need to make your point clear, that's your choice. Goodbye!

I really don't get your point, but I really can't wait for the next who insults me. God, I love DCP. EDIT: Pretty inspiring that I brought about your first post in two years, too! How flattering!

Boy, I sure am glad I'm trying to keep this civil, because you're really returning the favor here. Thanks! Heh. I definitely taught my HS hornline the same way I was taught in corps, and was definitely taught to play in my HS hornline the same way I was taught in corps. Never heard a comment on a judges tape about a lack of balance or blend. Ensemble balance exists in hornlines, too. I was saying this earlier in another thread. Woodwinds are primarily audible in softer moments, features, solos, etc. Impact points, not so much. It's okay. Again with the rudeness. Is it really so bad to think outside the box? Sorry if it offends you, I'm really trying my best not to be offensive here. If you're a 20-year-old saxophonist, I doubt you want to march a corps whose hornline's average age is 15. If you're a music or music education major, I doubt that you would see the value in spending a summer playing brass under the instruction of someone less qualified than your brass techniques professor. If you're coming from a major competitive band program, you might view a move to a Quarterfinalist or Open Class corps as a lateral move from your band program, right or wrong. It widens to pool of potential applicants greatly. I guess this must have changed since 10/20/30 years ago, but I do believe that the people who are fans that don't have a background in instrumental music have a friend or loved one who was/is actively involved. I also believe they don't contribute as much to the development of DCI as those who do, or even those who make a career out of music. I also don't believe that someone without instrumental training would be hugely offended by the addition of woodwinds...seeing as there's a good chance they're only vaguely familiar of the distinction.

Woodwinds would be audible primarily during features, solos, and during softer moments of the performance. Impact points...not so much. It wouldn't be practical to have them mic'd for that purpose from a staging/design standpoint, and this is important because I feel like this is primarily what we're talking about when we're talking about the value of the brass sound. The clarinet shoots straigh t down into the ground, the flute right out the side of the horn, and the saxophone practically sounds like a brass instrument anywho. I was criticized a couple of posts ago for wanting drum corps to be a certain way only for my own purposes, but I truly do believe that the drum corps activity would reach a wider audience more successfully with these changes. And who's to say that the audience members, largely made up of those who know of the benefits of instrumental music education, also don't have an obligation to look at things from all sides? We are all in this boat together, and that's definitely a Scott Stewart angle. I've looked at it from all sides, believe me, it's not that I'm unaware that people are resistant to this change, but that I'd hope they'd be willing to compromise the same way so many others have for their marching experience for years. There's this concept that's very successful today in music education called "vertical alignment." When everyone is on the same docket at all levels in an educational program, all of them flourish and become more successful. Shouldn't we also apply that theory to our corner of the music education world, pulling support from professional musicians and educators at every other level of instrumental music and the marching activity? I hate to say it, because I'll probably get blasted for being "arrogant" again, but experience counts for more than nothing.

I think this is an interesting argument, considering the argument that you wouldn't be able to hear woodwinds on the field is also used regularly by anti-WW supporters (although not necessarily used by you, I can't speak to that). I think everyone would be surprised how little it really changes things from a performance perspective. We don't see bands that perform or have been trained like corps do. As someone who has played in and instructed some of the best marching ensembles in the country, drum corps or marching band, and experienced bands as close to corps style as they come, the distinction between the sounds is primarily one of sonority, and a propensity for intricacy that is not afforded by our current instrumentation...which I consider to be a benefit, personally, but that's a matter of personal taste. I also don't see how anyone would be less inclined to march after 1 year than they are now, considering the personal implications of going on tour with a corps family are the same.

DCP is not representative of DCI's fan base. Ask any corps director. There's a reason most of the people who are figureheads in the activity tend to be far from here. It is my hope that our alumni and fans who support the activity will continue to support it with additions, in a desire to promote the wonderful lessons of our activity and community. Nothing is being taken away here: you'll still have heart-thumping drums and blood-racing hornlines, wonderful visual programs and breathtaking colorguards. You're expanding the experience to as many people as possible, and allowing for a deeper dimension of professionalism. Drum corps accomplish what they do because of their organizational and operational structure, which separates them from marching bands and define what they do. I really do not believe that there are a significant number of patrons, certainly not those who invest more than $20 in the activity a year, with no background in instrumental music. But if so, then certainly not in my generation, and we need to plan for the future.

Wow, I finally got a reason to block a user. Awesome. :)

Yes. Then I suppose it's agree to disagree time, eh? I see it, you don't. It's okay. I'm the music ed major--I don't know if you are or aren't, but that's probably why I look at things so differently from most of DCP (apparently).

It's a possibility. But it is the role that DCI plays in the marching world, and where it's success and attendance is rooted.

To be a part of a professional-level marching ensemble, gain valuable knowledge and experience, go on a national tour, march with people aged up to 21, make ~200 (with WWs) friends, and perform in front of 300,000 people by summer's end. You don't do that in MB. EDIT: And you all know corps friends are different from MB friends.

If you ask most musicians at a collegiate, professional, or educational level, had they been involved in drum corps or not, I believe they would say in the past that it was; fortunately, I believe we are bridging that gap. The DCI fan base is rooted in its excellence as a marching medium, and will be in the future. Those who marched drum corps or marching band almost entirely make up our audience, and they will be there so long as DCI continues to be "Marching Music's Major League"...which certainly would not change by legalizing universal instrumentation.

I just got done explaining how they are different. I don't see your point.

Marching bands do not tour, do not do physical conditioning, do not perform at 220 bpm, do not have members 17-21, do not have the professional resources drum and bugle corps do, and do not have the professional standards drum and bugle corps do. Because it is administrated and designed better comparatively does not mean that the production is entirely better, but these are due to the constrains of the different levels of our activity.